Handi rifles being priced out of the market?

[bikerbeans]

Below are this mornings delivered prices from Bud’s Gunshop on some of the most popular centerfire cartridges.  Bud is out of stock on all the lower priced 223 Remingtons, therefore no pricing available.

June 6, 2010

270 Win

H&R $262
Savage Edge $261

30-06 Springfield

H&R - $255 & $262
Savage Edge $268

243 Win

H&R - $255 & $262
Savage Edge $268

22-250 Rem

H&R $255
Savage Edge $261

These are all the entry level rifles w/o optics.  If you are someone looking for their first centerfire rifle it would see the edge goes to the Edge.  Remington also has entry level bolts for just a few more dollars than the Edge.  It looks to me like the Handis are intentionally being priced out of the market. 

BB

[MSP Ret]

Not if your looking for a single shot. There are many bolt guns on the market but only a couple of value priced singles, and of those HR is the by far best. The is a lot of difference between a nice Buff Classic or lightwieght H&R .223, or even a standard H&R in 30-30 and a run of the mill bolt gun. I have bolt guns I just don't use. I much prefer my single shot H&R's....<><....

[Spanky]

It's cheaper to buy a brand new handi than buy a used one here on the classifieds.
If you buy one piece by piece...

Barrel...$110-150 shipped.
SB2 frame...$110 + $20-50 FFL fees on your end.
Stock set...$50 shipped for pallet wood stock set.

That's $270 minimum (not counting ffl fees) for something that you have to put together yourself. Guys have finally priced the pieces and parts to the point where it's cheaper and easier to go to a shop and buy a new one.

It won't be long before someone posts a 357 mag barrel or 45 colt barrel or... for $200 and someone jumps right on it without hesitation. That's doing more to run up prices than the factory is.  
Spanky

[NFG]

Could be...you never know for sure..Bud's may just be out of the cheaper ones or wants to move the pricier ones...my local Bi/Walmart's still have Handi's for about $160...Rossi is going to give NEF a bunch of competition with it's break action, and it has a couple of features I like much better than NEF.  I wonder if there will be a ROSSI TALK here some day???  

The price of barrel swaps through Rem has stopped me from doing several NEF "projects"...especially when I can just buy a barrel blank, chamber it and screw it on any of a couple dozen of my rifle receivers or pick one of several loose receivers for about the same price and not need to chase the monkey around the pole...and NOT have to contend with the reduced pressure.  If I want a single shot all I have to do is load ONE round.

And if you want to do a stub barrel project you have to add in the price of a donor barrel for the stub, which adds at least $100 to the total cost.

NEF's will always be fun to play with tho', no matter what the cost.
Luck

[dave29]

I ordered a .308 Edge from Bud's the other day. $300 shipped with a scope. I figured for $300, why not.

[Mac11700]

This phenomenon has happened before so it really isn't anything new I'm afraid. The Handi rifle will always be a mainstay for those who want a switch barreled single shot at reasonable price, even if you can get a cheap bolt gun for the same price or less. For those just wanting a cheap bolt gun,they will jump all over this and proclaim them better. With no disrespect to them if this is what they are after I say go for it..you will be back.. . The thing about spending $150 or even $200 for a barrel for these as opposed to any bolt gun is rather simple. Most anyone can switch from caliber to caliber with these quite easily with out having to take it to a gunsmith. That's the beauty of it's design,not so with a bolt gun..hence the rifles given name..Are there trade offs,sure there are..are there pressure limits,absolutely without a doubt..is the bolt gun capable of more accuracy,a-lot of times it is if it is properly assembled and tricked out,but so too is the Handi..

For individual the switch barrel choices are few and fair in-between..The Rossi will never really compete with the Handi,they have tried and failed several times..same too for CVA because of their unwillingness to make some decent wood and offer additional calibers.Mossberg was a contender at 1 time,but they folded up shop with the SS1,which leaves the Encore,and you pay for what you get with those rifles and in most cases as much as a good Ruger #1.

So,do I feel they are pricing themselves out of the market intentionally..no..they perhaps are becoming more expensive than some can afford as a starter gun,but still are the most economical way to have what we have.While the appeal of having a super strong bolt gun is great to many who have never mastered the Handi's triggers or learned how to make very simple adjustments to them,and the lure of superb out of the box accuracy with a perfect trigger is great,the reality of the most economical grade offered by anyone is often never achieved without a investment of either time or money to attain it.Even when it has been achieved,what does that person have as far as trade in value,and more importantly what do they have that is so better than what we have here? Nothing I am afraid,nothing except a single caliber rifle that they will loose money on if they ever decide to trade it in or sell it out right.

Since the factory has made our barrel program more difficult to acquire additional barrels,it has become a sellers market for these barrels,and yeas folks will pay more for barrels than many would like to see happen.Why else when folks try to sell their barrels some folks come in a try their best to low ball them on their price.Because people are always trying to spend less to get more for their money these days,and being able to have multiple calibers cheaply makes more sense to many.The value of them is higher today than ever before,and for good reason.A person can get a barrel easier from an individual than from the factory. Only until the higher ups at Remington fully grasp this,I am afraid it will remain like this...just as it did for NEF a few years ago.Once NEF truly understood just how many of us there were, then they began to take us seriously..we can only hope this doesn't take as long with Remington. Even if it does take a while for this to happen and the prices to stabilize some what,what we have here is the envy of the other forums any where on the net.Where else can a budding Handiholic go for such a wealth of information and become involved such a international diverse culture as what we have here? No where. This is the place to be for us,and rightly so.

So,for those becoming disenchanted with these little rifles,go and explore the life of other rifle types and seek out the camaraderie of those like individuals. Enjoy the pleasure of their company and conversation when these rifles are mentioned. See how helpful they are in solving your issues you have with your new rifle,and bask in the glow of your new found distraction,because when the shininess has faded and reality has set in,you'll soon find you miss the feel and familiarity of these little rifles and those of us here who won't rudely tell you.."we told you so " but welcome you back with no questions asked..

Mac

[Spanky]

Just a couple points... it seems that most folks don't switch barrels on their Handi's... once they are shooting well they leave them alone... myself included. So while it is a valid point that Handi's are a switch barrel platform alot of folks don't use them as such... so it's reasonably safe to say that being able to easily switch calibers as compared to a bolt gun is a moot point.
I shudder to think of the price increase on Handi's if the factory does pay attention to used sales... if they take notice of the fact that folks are willing to pay $150 or more in some cases for just a barrel that may or may not fit the buyers frame... it would be reasonable to think that they could ask $400 or more for a complete Handi... Geez... God only knows what they'd want for a Buff. Classic or an Ultra with the nice thumbhole stocks and such.
So it remains to be seen if the used market prices will influence the new market prices... In the meantime... keep paying the high prices for 'em but don't complain when the factory wants their slice of the pie too.



Spanky

[Big Blue]

The Savage Edge, if anything, will probably put an end to the Stevens 200. While H&R Handi-rifles are in the same entry level price range, they are a very different rifle. I own several very accurate bolt action rifles from Tikka, Remington and Savage, but still buy Handi-rifles.
Don

[Spanky]

The Stevens 200's are good rifles for the money. I've got one in 22-250 that shoots lights out with no mods. whatsoever.



Spanky

[Mac11700]

Just a couple points... it seems that most folks don't switch barrels on their Handi's... once they are shooting well they leave them alone... myself included. So while it is a valid point that Handi's are a switch barrel platform alot of folks don't use them as such... so it's reasonably safe to say that being able to easily switch calibers as compared to a bolt gun is a moot point.
I shudder to think of the price increase on Handi's if the factory does pay attention to used sales... if they take notice of the fact that folks are willing to pay $150 or more in some cases for just a barrel that may or may not fit the buyers frame... it would be reasonable to think that they could ask $400 or more for a complete Handi... Geez... God only knows what they'd want for a Buff. Classic or an Ultra with the nice thumbhole stocks and such.
So it remains to be seen if the used market prices will influence the new market prices... In the meantime... keep paying the high prices for 'em but don't complain when the factory wants their slice of the pie too.



Spanky

How can it be a moot point ? Does the fact that this is and always has been a switch barrel rifle suddenly diminish because of yours or others here personal choice not to utilize this feature ? I think not.I know just as many people with 1 frame and 1 barrel and also many with 1 or 2 additional barrels as I do with 5-100 complete handi's. When this rifle stops being available as it is now,then perhaps the point will be valid,not before. People can buy receivers for $75-$100 and make many additional complete guns,many folks have done just this,but for someone just starting out,it is still easier to purchase additional barrels for these,and is exactly how the majority of folks have done it for years.

Remington should pay attention to what sales are happening in the used market. This will show them there is a growing market that needs to be filled with new current production barrels and rifles and stocks and hopefully they will continue offering these things for us consumers. Higher prices are a fact of life with any rifle manufacture that builds rifles here in the USA instead of taking these jobs elsewhere. No one likes it,but it is a fact of life. Look at the actual cost a person will pay to have a Buff Classic 45-70 fitted to his frame from the factory..look at the time lost to the consumer as well.You need to factor in the entire cost of doing this including shipping cost,insurance there and back as well as taxes. You will see there really isn't major cost variances,but sure as heck a time variance involved,and in some cases a person doesn't have a major job on fitting it..Will Remington jack the prices up to price the rifle out of the market,I don't think they will,they may be ignorant,but they aren't stupid.The H&R's have been a strong sales division for some time,and it would be stupid of them to make major changes and disrupt that income.

Mac

[Spanky]

Mac,

Is your new custom 30-06 gonna continue to be a switch barrel platform or is it now a dedicated setup? I think we both know the answer to that... and that is exactly what I'm talking about.

As far as price increases... we'll just have to wait and see won't we.



Spanky

[bikerbeans]

I wouldn't have posted if I new someone would mention "Rossi".  

Spanky is right about the a new Handi being cheaper than buying parts & pieces.  I have bought 4 new handis this year just to get either a receiver or reciever & stock set.  I hope I was fair to the GBO members that bought the new extra parts from me.

I am not really complaining to much about the price of a new handi rifle as it affects me.  I can afford to spend more for a gun but I like the simplicity of the single shot and hope that it is making me a better shooter.  I think a brand new BC 45/70 for $376 is a very good deal for what you get.  I just think that many more first time buyers are going to opt for a repeater gun over a single when the price is the same. 

BB

[revbc]

I have, and have had actions of all types.  Grew up a lever guy, shooting running deer behind dogs with a scope in the wild and wooly Tunica Hills of Louisiana.  The dogs went away........so did the autos and levers we really didn't needem anymore.  (Still own some, just don't hunt withem).  Enter the still hunt, (which is most every place now because people shoot your dogs) and the single shot rifles.  Love these H&Rs, had an Encore SS it was ok, but for the price.............that 357maxi H&R did out shoot it every time.  Just recently entered the bolt gun arena, love those Savages (not edge, even though its looks decent).  I think the reason I like the H&Rs and Savages is they are so ready to be tinkered with, not that they need it, I just can.

[Mac11700]

Mac,

Is your new custom 30-06 gonna continue to be a switch barrel platform or is it now a dedicated setup? I think we both know the answer to that... and that is exactly what I'm talking about.

As far as price increases... we'll just have to wait and see won't we.



Spanky

Actually yes..it most certainly is going to be a switch barrel set up,so your assumption is far from being correct. I am also going to put a want to buy add for 1 or 2 more barrels for this set up,so I can at least have 2 calibers for this frame.http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,209101.0.html. I would prefer not to have to modify the barrel in any way for it,and may luck out and get one that will mate perfectly to it,but then again I may not.Since this is a full custom rig,I don't have any choice but to go this route,and I know I am not alone in this as well.That is the luck of the draw with these things. Will that deter me from doing this,no,not really,and I will sell what ever barrel I get if it doesn't work out for me at what I paid for it or lightly less just so I can pass on a good deal to those actually needing one. I know that some will buy it,because most that know me,know I don't pass on junk at a premium price,and others are wanting a additional barrel with out having to send their only frame in to be fitted,or they just want an additional barrel.Not all of Handiholics care or can afford to have a safe full of these rifles and can just as easily be satisfied with 1 or a just a few. As far as the prices go,we will have to wait and see,and for the adventurous,they will continue seeking these little rifles out at many hole in the wall places,because they still know good deals exist.These good deals are getting harder to find,because of the rifle popularity,not just because of the low price.People hear about them from all kinds of places,and when they do find one and buy it many times they seek out like minded folks like us. The question is will a cheap made bolt gun be the death knell for the Handi..I sincerely doubt it..not for some time. The lure of a good single shot will always be there,once a person picks one up. I'm not saying a good bolt gun doesn't have it's appeal mind you,but,the feel a person gets with these rifles in their hands stirs the emotions of the hunting soul, even from those who have never handled a rifle before.

Mac

[HAMMERHEAD]

$5-$10 would never influence my decision on which rifle to buy.
I would choose the rifle I liked best. Considering the solid history of the H&R/NEF rifles, others brands better come up with better caliber options, or one heck of a price to get me to buy something else.

[Spanky]

You mean to tell us that you spent all kinds of time and money on your custom 30-06 to get it just the way you want it and it's not a dedicated setup? Who you trying to kid Mac. Read back through your own posts and how you do forearm work... bedding jobs... custom stocks and barrels... etc. and then tell us that you switch barrels on your frames.   My points are valid and you know it. For the record... I have more Handi's than any other kind of firearm and that's what I carry 99% of the time... still doesn't change the facts and figures.
Just like I said... most guys get them shooting well and leave 'em alone.



Spanky

[frgerald]

My opinion is worth just what it costs...but, I agree with Mac11700.  The 45 LC barrel is no longer available at any cost from H&R.  The .357 costs $96 + $25 fitting + $19 shipping each way add to that the hassle of the time involved (sometimes months) and a new barrel off the Forum is a bargain at $150 TYD.  Besides, the basis of the economic system has always been supply and demand.  Rising prices have always been not only a frustration (especially for us old duffers) but as certain as death and taxes.  I learned a lesson from an old used car dealer friend in E. Texas many years ago.  If I buy something, anything, for $200 and someone offers me $300 for it but I do not sell....from that point on, I now have $300 invested in the property - NOT $200.  Sad, but true!    

[Swampman]

I love the Handi Rifle but cheap boltguns aren't interesting.

[NFG]

I didn't buy my Handi's because I could switch barrels but because they are "cheap" in relation to other rifles as far a price goes and because they have other potentials to explore.  I have so many other rifles and switch barrels for them, that NEF has very few calibers I'm interested in.  It is the STUB barrel potential I'm interested in.

A stub barrel setup has the potential for ANY cartridge and caliber...within reason and the pressure parameters of the frame.  Never seen much use for a pistol cartridge in a rifle except for maybe matching it to a carry pistol and even then I scratch my head, but if that's what you want and want to pay the price then go for it.

I've been swapping barrels since the 60's in/on Savage, Rem and Rugers, with and without barrel nuts.  Some of my early Rem benchrest competition rifles had switch barrels AND switch bolts I could change between matches so I could shoot in several matches.  It would take me about 10 minutes to swap one out...5 if I was in a hurry...

Today, all my Savages have at least two barrels to swap, a couple have 3 different bolt with the 3 "normal" size bolt heads, one Ruger receiver has 5 barrels and one Rem SA has two barrels and they all can be done in the field just as easy as in my home shop....and that's not counting ALL the swap barrels I have standing around in corners I made up for specific reasons that won't ever get used again.

No matter if it is NEF, T/C or a bolt gun, if you have the correct setup, swapping barrels is quick and easy, and all present their separate problems that need solving.  

Most of my NEF's are dedicated to one barrel and as alluded to already...it is almost cheaper just to buy a new one than pay the barrel swap and shipping charges....the difference between buying a complete NEF in 500 S&W cal and sending a frame in to have it swapped out was 7 bucks more for the new rifle...that was a quote from my local Bimart...no contest there.

I've never been married to ANY one brand of ANYTHING...guns, trucks, cars, m/c's, women, tools, etc, are just tools to me and I don't measue myself by ANY of my toys...but if you're enamored by something, I see nothing wrong in it.

A shiny car, beautiful woman, fancy gun are all "Things of beauty and joys forever" as Keats put it...just some of us are junk yard dogs, like beer and pizza, while others are more fastidious and want a high rise apt champaign and caviar.


AND we all have opinions...

Luck

[Mac11700]

You mean to tell us that you spent all kinds of time and money on your custom 30-06 to get it just the way you want it and it's not a dedicated setup? Who you trying to kid Mac. Read back through your own posts and how you do forearm work... bedding jobs... custom stocks and barrels... etc. and then tell us that you switch barrels on your frames.   My points are valid and you know it. For the record... I have more Handi's than any other kind of firearm and that's what I carry 99% of the time... still doesn't change the facts and figures.
Just like I said... most guys get them shooting well and leave 'em alone.



Spanky

Sorry if you cannot believe me Spanky..but the fact of the matter is Yes..I do plan on having a switch barrel custom Handi..and yes while I do love a dedicated set up just as much as the next guy or you,if you go back and read what I've always said regarding this fact... I have said I am a firm believer in having a dedicated forearm for each fitted barrel. A dedicated forearm and barrel is much easier to set up and cheaper and makes more sense to me since I am building on a customized frame. I cannot send mine in to Remington to have other barrels fitted to it,or don't you realize this ? I don't need to have multiple complete rifles anymore. Why..I don't have the time to customize each one,nor do I have the money. The cost for me to do what I want with it is easier on the wallet than going about spending twice to three times as much for building out a complete rifle. In the past I also liked to play around with different calibers,just to experiment with them and see what I could do. It's a hobby for me,just as it is for a lot of other people. This time out,I elected to have a full custom rebore on a caliber that can do just about every type of hunting I elected to undertake. I did it because it is always something I wanted in a Handi,along with having a superb scope to go along with it. My frame and stock is perfect to me on this,my trigger is set exactly as I want it to be,the gun balances perfect but I will  get another varmint forearm or standard forearm to go along with what ever barrel I elect to put on it, and weight it so the rifle balances exactly as what it does now..

If I wanted to I could have a set up to switch out barrels and bolt heads for any bolt gun,but I choose not to anymore.Many others here on this forum,have neither the time or money or space to do this,nor are they confident of their ability to undertake this type of project,others here do indeed do all of this and have no problem with any of the more advanced gun smithing..What has this to do with any of this..NADDA...why..cause I don't need any special tools other than a simple Phillips screw driver to swap barrels. It doesn't get any simpler than that..and just because you elect not to use yours as a switch barrel,so what,you still can unless you modified your frame or barrel to keep you from doing it.

Now..is your point valid..it most certainly to you and to others who have elected to have a dedicated rig per caliber....even so, it is far from what you said about actually being a moot point about these rifles since there have been far many more thousands of them produced along with thousands of additional barrels than there are members of this forum or who have voted in the poll we have going. Believe it or not many folks still actual buy and use the rifle for this benefit,It has always been a selling point for them,just as having a bed on a pick up truck..it's there to be used even if you never do and most importantly until they stop making them,this will remain a selling point for them..this is a indisputable fact wither you elect to believe what I am saying is true or not

Mac

[Spanky]

I wouldn't send that frame into Remington (or anyone else) either. It only takes one person to drop it or otherwise mess it up.



Spanky

[Spanky]

Anyway... to get back to my point... folks have got the prices jacked up so high on used pieces and parts that it makes more sense (economically) to just buy a new Handi. My dealer has brand new handi's on the rack for $249.

Another point if I may... it seems that alot of handi's are prone to POI shift when changing barrels... there are alot of threads to support the idea so there seems to be some validity to it... In that case it seems that a simple barrel swap isn't so simple... especially if accuracy is in question after the swap. That seems to be the biggest reason that folks don't like to swap barrels on the Handi's once they are shooting well.

So while it is true that the handi's are a switch barrel platform it seems that oftentimes it makes more sense to have a dedicated setup. In fact most of the well established members of the site have conceded to the fact that a dedicated setup is the way to go and have posted as so.

Apparently we are not seeing each other's point... that's OK... it's just the way it is.


Spanky

[john-78]

spanky, i think your right, most people probably do prefer a single barrel set-up.  But Mac is definitaly right about the simplicity of the handi.  thats what has drawn me to them.  their simple and they work,and i am a firm beleiver in K.I.S.S. 
     for the record, if there was a custom built 308 by some monks in some secret gun building temple in tibet, and a handi-08 laying side by side on a table, would you be able to tell the difference after firing each one only once?  i know i couldn't.  ask any professional sniper and they will tell you the secret to the perfect shot lies with the guy squeezing the trigger.

[Spanky]

That's one of the things I like about handi's too... simplicity. And the fact that they shoot way better than they should.

In a real life SHTF or survival situation I would grab one of my handi's... no question about it.   (probably my versa pack 22 because I could carry more ammo and it shoots great)



Spanky

[Mac11700]

Spanky


Believe what you will my friend..but being able for paying $110-$150 shipped for a used or even at times a new unfired barrel of a different caliber will always be an advantage that I and others are grateful for with these rifles as opposed to having to spend over $250 and up for a complete rifle.Being able to use that barrel with out modifying it is a gamble and one most in with only 1 frame are willing to chance,they know as well as I know, in most cases it can be sold here with out a loss,or hassle of having to send it to a FFL holder for sale,and it will always be easier for some one on a budget to spend 1/2 or less the cost of a complete rifle for just a barrel.Those that don't care about modifying them can and have fitted their own by various methods..

Mac

[trotterlg]

Except for  the people here that you can count on your figeres and toes, I don't think anyone knows the difference between the Rossi and the H&R, to any newbee in a gun store they look exactly the same except the Rossi is $100.00 less.  Who do you think will get the most sales.  I do like the H&R's, but for the work it takes to make one compared to a bolt gun, they are way over priced, the Rossi has the price right.  I have worked with both, even did a 22 Hornet stub on a Rossi Youth, the H&R is better made, but they both do the same thing.   I would be worrying about the Rossi's way more than the Savage.  Last Rossi I bought was a 410/22 Combo, with a case and sling, $99.00 out the door in AZ.  Larry

[Datil]

 You can still handi at a decent price I did  I bought a new ultra out of a bass pro shop
 for 215$ plus tax. thence went to a gun show bought a H X 270 for $200 out the door.
 So there   Datil

[Mac11700]

Except for  the people here that you can count on your figeres and toes, I don't think anyone knows the difference between the Rossi and the H&R, to any newbee in a gun store they look exactly the same except the Rossi is $100.00 less.  Who do you think will get the most sales.  I do like the H&R's, but for the work it takes to make one compared to a bolt gun, they are way over priced, the Rossi has the price right.  I have worked with both, even did a 22 Hornet stub on a Rossi Youth, the H&R is better made, but they both do the same thing.   I would be worrying about the Rossi's way more than the Savage.  Last Rossi I bought was a 410/22 Combo, with a case and sling, $99.00 out the door in AZ.  Larry

A deaf dumb & blind person could tell the difference between a Rossi and a H&R...Nah Nah

Mac

[wreckhog]

Cheap plastic stock boringly perfect bolt actions have less visceral appeal than single shots that may or may not work well out of the box. Strange but true.

[gcrank1]

BB, I too have to wonder about your original posted question. The bottom line is, well, the bottom line. It is just plain expensive to be a manufacturer in the USA, and going to get moreso very soon. Unlike farmers, they arent going to keep doing it if they are slowly going broke.
Not to get off on another tangent here, but it is related more than most realize, the money supply was recently doubled, and is being fed into circulation. What backs it? Only the faith and trust of those who use it. This means each dollar we have is now worth half as much. As the markets absorb this, prices (inflation due to the devaluation) will go up. It has happened throughout history with every culture that has gone the route of fiat money.
'The only thing we learn from history is that we learn nothing from history'.