Broken Firing Pin?

[TonyS]

I bought a used handi ultra varmint .223 not long ago.  I finally put a new Redfield 2x7 on it, bore sighted it and took it to the range, really looking forward to shooting this rifle.  I fired about 5 rounds then had a misfire.  I waited a minute keeping it pointed downrange and when nothing happened I drew back the hammer and it fired.   When the brass ejected I looked at it and there was a hole in the primer.  I tried several other rounds and still no fire.  I was using winchester white box ammo.

Anybody got any thoughts?  Did I break the firing pin?

[quickdtoo]

First thing I'd do is make sure the frame is an SB2 rifle frame and not an SB1 shotgun frame that someone has swapped barrels on since it's used. The easiest way is call H&R and ask what barrels can be fitted to the frame, they'll want to know what the serial number is, toll free (866)776-9292. Or you can compare it to the pics in the FAQs, the biggest difference is the tang is solid around the stock bolt hole on an SB1, SB2s are skeletonized. If it's an SB1, don't shoot it anymore, the 223 barrel needs to be on an SB2 rifle frame. Y0u'll need to remove the stock by removing the recoil pad and using a 9/16" or 14mm socket on a long extension to reach in and remove the bolt.

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,80979.msg498556.html#msg498556

[TonyS]

I called yesterday and the guy on the phone told me they only keep records for three years.  They don't have the previous company's records.  Mine was built in 1995 and was not rebarreled by NEF.  I spoke with a gunsmith who asked if it was difficult to open after I shot the last bullet.  It was.  He said that's when I broke the firing pin as it had stuck in the primer of the last shot.  The barrel is marked SB2 but the action only is stamped with the serial number and NEF.

So I ordered another firing pin.  We'll put it in and try again.

[quickdtoo]

Did you ask what accessory barrels can be fitted? You still appear to not know what frame you have, the Win White box ammo is the gold standard for 1:12" twist 223 H&Rs, I've never seen any reports of primer problems with it, not that it can't happen with factory ammo, but perforated primers is a common problem when high pressure barrels are used on shotgun frames. I recommend you find out for sure what the frame it is before shooting any more 223 ammo in it, there can be deadly consequences using a high pressure chambered barrel on a shotgun frame, the 223 Rem has a SAAMI MAP of 55,000psi, H&R won't fit any barrels that have pressures higher than 40,000psi to shotgun frames. Please read the report below on what can be happen.

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,121724.msg1098413838.html#msg1098413838

[OR-E-Gun Bill]

So I ordered another firing pin.  

Just curious, where did you order the firing pin from? and how did you know which one to order?

Thanks & Welcome

Bill

[quickdtoo]

Good question Bill, I thought about asking, but forgot to while typing, seems to be a routine thing for me any more. 

Tony, the reason we ask is H&R lists the firing pin as restricted availability, Brownell's and Numrich only sell shotgun pins.

Tim

http://www.hr1871.com/documents/manuals/new/Handi-Rifle.pdf

[NFG]

I just lost the firing pin to my 45-120...it popped out while I was tapping out the pin and disappeared into a black hole.  I called NEF for the pin and some other parts and they WOULD NOT SELL ME ANY firing pings.

Unless there are other sources for the pins you have to send your action in to have one fitted.

TOTAL BUMMER.  Guess I will have to make some.

Luck

[NFG]

Anyone have pictures of the rifle and the shotgun firing pins?

Please post them if you do.

I ordered two shotgun firing pins from Brownells and bought some 15/64 drill rod.

One way or another I will find a way to solve this problem....Grinding down/reshaping the shotgun firing pin or making a new one.

Much better than spending $50 bucks sending in the action.

Can't believe SOMEONE out there hasn't had this problem and posted a simple solution...maybe it's a NEW problem with Remingtons refusal to sell rifle firing pins. 

I will post some pictures as soon as I get the shotgun firing pins in...unless Tim, Fred, Larry, Mac or can do it first.

Luck

[quickdtoo]

I think the only difference in modern pins is the diameter of the tip, whether a pin could be slimmed down with a file in a drill, I dunno. I have lots of extra frames, so I've never worried about having a spare, I can always rob one if I need one. Thought I had an extra at one time, but the one I ordered from Brownell's is not the right one, it's for a different firearm.  The reviewer on the Brownell's pin says it's for a shotgun, too big. They list it as an S01671, but the rifle pin on the H&R parts display is R00266.

Tim

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/sid=18155/pid=0/sku/Firing_Pin

http://www.hr1871.com/documents/manuals/new/Handi-Rifle.pdf

[OR-E-Gun Bill]

The firing pins will take a file.
This is what they look like if you haven't seen one yet.



Trimmed one down in my vertically challenged lathe (drill press).
File and crocus cloth worked good enough for me to make a spare.


Bill

[quickdtoo]

Thanks Bill!! 

Tim

[trotterlg]

Some have a taper to the pin from the body and some have the sharp sholder as shown.  Larry

[NFG]

You Da'Man Bill....THANKS...Larry also for his information.

Both of mine had a short tapered section at the large end...I figured it was to center the pin in the spring maybe.  Sure glad I don't have to reproduce than section to a couple tenths.  Be easy to slim down the shotgun pin...save me all that thinking and tinkering time.  Now if I could turn my cheap foreign made lathe into a primo CNC machine I could whip out a few thousand in no time flat...

Me too Tim...I robbed a SB2 frame I had apart in preparation for the 20Ga work...I don't have as many goodies as you Tim.   ...but I wish I did.

Luck

[OR-E-Gun Bill]

Just had to know. So, I just got done tearing into my Handi 357 - SB1 and this is the firing pin that is used in it. BTW, the pin is .063" diameter.



 

Bill

[spooked]

I'm a prime example of what not to do..put a Savage 219-22hornet barrel on a 94 savage shotgun frame ..it locked up nicely but when fired the primer cratered around the firing pin and I had to bounce it on the butt several times before it would open.
There is about .010 to .013-.016 usually in difference in the firing pin diameters..knew better but felt compelled to try it anyway.

[trotterlg]

You would probably be successful with the shotgun frame if you used something like the CCI BR4's or CCI 450's, I use one on a Rossi shotgun frame and it works fine that way.  Larry

[NFG]

THAT's the one that got away, Billl...BOTH were in SB2 frames...that tapered cone fit inside the spring and definitely centered the spring anyway.

Several steps involved...a multi-tool CNC mill would make it a breeze.

I don't see anything "wrong" with paying 50 large for a CNC mill, but paying the 50 bucks for sending it to Rem just cuts the wrong way...   Hahahahahah

A "harder cup" on the primer would do wonders.

Luck

[gcrank1]

For those so inclined to modify a shotgun tip to rifle:
When filing or turning the tip to reduced dia. dont make a square shoulder at the tip base were it joins the body. Leave a small radius of material as it transitions to help strengthen the junction.
Also, if you dont have to anneal (soften) the pin to rework it, dont think you will make it better by hardening it. It will only become brittle and break easier.

[NFG]

You only need to cut down about 0.250" of the pin front...just enough to get thought the frame and a little bit extra for wiggle room to keep it from sticking...the one I made had a 0.240" protrusion in front of the tapered section.

You're right about NOT hardening the pin...use a diamond file or a Dremel tool with a grind stone or a carbide cutter.  The OEM rifle pin I used as a sample wasn't hardened...don't know about the shotgun pins, they haven't arrived yet.

Easy to make the shotgun style but a PITA to put the tapered shoulder on it...I had to grind and stone a ~0.107" wide tool bit to match the width of the taper with a small radius on each corner.  If I had to make a bunch of these little buggers I would set up my tool post grinder instead of just turning them.

Luck

[gcrank1]

Looks like you've got a fine little retirement cottage industry there, NFG. Bet you wouldnt have a problem disposing of them here. I'd rather deal with a chap like you than send back to the factory!

[NFG]

Hahahahahah.....maybe in the old days. ...it took about an hour to turn one because of the 0.064" pin dia and having to turn in small increments to keep from snapping it off...45 minutes maybe, using a tool post grinder after all the setups are worked out...but today anyone with a CNC milling center could turn these out by the 1000's in a day. 

Even at a relatively "offshore" hourly wage, I would have to charge $15-20 per pin, plus shipping, just to pay for materials, electricity and machine time...Very few would pay that considering how easy it is just to convert a shotgun pin, even though the total cost of the pin, shipping and someones work time would come out about the same.

I know a CNC man close to me that would turn bullets, parts, anything you want...$75/hr machine time, $75/hr design time plus materiels, last time I talked to him.  I have a bunch of bullet designs for brass projectiles in 45 and 50 cal sizes that could be simple to up or down sized to any caliber...the large ones go for about a buck apiece total cost.  I hope to have him make me a bunch someday.

If I could be sure of moving enough to pay for an hours worth of machine I would look into the the actual feasibility.  Even at $15 apiece including shipping/handling, I would need to have about 25 buyers to break even, I'm guessing...I don't think there are that many needing replacement pins that couldn't "DIY". 

There is many cottage industries going on right now and a potential ton more just waiting for the right time and someone with the capitol to start up...just look in Sinclair Int catalog for starters.

If I was a young man looking to do the hustle again I would be right in the middle of this "industrial revelation".

We can always dream tho'. Hahahahahaha

Luck

[PHATINJUN]

You are right about Sinclair...I can't even afford to open and look at thier catalog anymore. :)Kurt

[NFG]

Yeah...all I can do now is drool all over the pichers...and the just sticks the pages together... Hahahahaha

Luck

[TonyS]

Ok Tim,

I have read your explanations, seen the pictures you posted and now dissembled my gun. The guy I bought this from claimed to have shot it repeatedly and developed a handload for it.  Here is what I found:

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c265/tanganyikanhunt/Hr223002.jpg

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c265/tanganyikanhunt/Hr223001.jpg

I spoke again to H&R today and was told that I have a 1995.  They will not put anything on this frame but a shotgun barrel.

What do I have? 

Oh, and since it was asked previously above, when I ordered a new firing pin, the guy gave me no trouble at all and said they are easy to install.  He took my credit card number and gave me a confirmation number.

[quickdtoo]

What's the frame serial number prefix? H&R won't fit anything but shotgun, 357 and 44 mag barrels to '96-'99 frames, it's possible some late '95 frames were also outsourced and the cutoff isn't exactly 1996. It's definitely an SB2 frame, so unless it has a defective firing pin, it's not likely the firing pin size that's causing the issue as it would on an SB1 frame, may have just been defective primers too. Beats me why the CS rep took your order for the firing pin, it's clearly marked restricted in the owner's manual. But it's not a first for them giving out incorrect information, you may still find out it can't be shipped to you, that kind of screw up happens all the time in Madison customer support. 

Tim

http://www.hr1871.com/documents/manuals/new/Handi-Rifle.pdf

[TonyS]

The serial number starts with "NJ" which by the chart and both guys on the phone is a 1995 Ultra in .223.

[quickdtoo]

Either he told you wrong, which wouldn't be out of the ordinary unfortunately, or the cutoff for the outsourced frames wasn't exactly 1996. If you want to get accessory barrels fitted at some time, I'd give them a call, it's not uncommon to get different answers on consecutive calls on the same question, just depends on who you talk to, so it's best to get a second opinion, so to speak. 

Tim

[TonyS]

Holding the pin in my hand, delivered by mail today.

[quickdtoo]

That's great, but you're not out of the woods yet, let's hope it's the right one, that's the other side of Madison CS, they don't always send the right parts.    You can use the trigger hone info in the FAQs to R&R it, might as well do a trigger job while you're in there if you haven't already. 

Tim

[OR-E-Gun Bill]

Holding the pin in my hand, delivered by mail today.

Any update on the firing pin Tony? Did you get the correct pin and can you share with us what the cost from H&R was for the pin + shipping?

Thanx,

Bill