Author Topic: Obama: 'Procedural' Spat Over Health Bill Vote Doesn't Worry Me  (Read 1296 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline teamnelson

  • Trade Count: (30)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4495
  • Gender: Male
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/03/17/obama-tells-fox-news-procedural-spat-health-vote-doesnt-worry/

Quote
"I don't spend a lot of time worrying about what the procedural rules are in the House or Senate," Obama said.

Whew, I was worried there for a moment ...
held fast

Offline Langfur Buchsen

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 27
Re: Obama: 'Procedural' Spat Over Health Bill Vote Doesn't Worry Me
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2010, 04:55:36 PM »
As a non-American and living in a democratic country where the health care system is good (but not without some shortcomings admittedly), I have been wondering why the ongoing political arguments over universal health care are so divisive in the US.

It's surely not socialist to expect that everybody is entitled to the best health care, whether they can afford it or not...

.... or am I missing something ?

 (This is not a stir - it's a genuine enquiry)




Offline burntmuch

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (114)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2177
Re: Obama: 'Procedural' Spat Over Health Bill Vote Doesn't Worry Me
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2010, 05:05:13 PM »
As a non-American and living in a democratic country where the health care system is good (but not without some shortcomings admittedly), I have been wondering why the ongoing political arguments over universal health care are so divisive in the US.

It's surely not socialist to expect that everybody is entitled to the best health care, whether they can afford it or not...

.... or am I missing something ?

 (This is not a stir - it's a genuine enquiry)








The dead weight in this country is getting heavy
I dont care what gun Im using as long as Im hunting

Offline teamnelson

  • Trade Count: (30)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4495
  • Gender: Male
Re: Obama: 'Procedural' Spat Over Health Bill Vote Doesn't Worry Me
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2010, 05:43:05 PM »
Langfur, the American ideal is that everyone has a right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. HC, education, etc. aren't rights, they are services and they cost $. It's divisive because we don't have $ to pay for it without taking it from people who are already paying for it. And we don't agree it's a right beyond perhaps emergency services.

Let's say I worked hard, saved my money and bought a nice Audi A6. But the family next door had no car. So the government took my car, sold it, and bought us each a Yugo. Clearly that's not fair is it? But do my neighbors have a right to have a car? If so, where does the money come from to buy them one? The government does not generate revenue; it taxes citizens.
held fast

Offline johnjohn

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 52
  • Gender: Male
Re: Obama: 'Procedural' Spat Over Health Bill Vote Doesn't Worry Me
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2010, 05:45:46 PM »
For one thing the country can't afford it. That may seem like a minor point to proponents of it ,but it's afact. I also agree with TeamNelson it's just not fair.

Offline mechanic

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (32)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5112
  • Gender: Male
Re: Obama: 'Procedural' Spat Over Health Bill Vote Doesn't Worry Me
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2010, 05:46:47 PM »
In order for the government to "give" something to someone, they first have to "take" it from someone else.  I have no problem with "taking" for the common good, as in roads, bridges, etc., but to take from one individual and give to another is just wrong.

If I hold a gun to your head and take your money, then give it to someone less fortunate, am I still a robber?

In any case, not one person in this country now goes without healthcare, whether or not they can afford it, unless they just want to.  Emergency rooms that take any gov. money are required to render service to anyone regardless of ability to pay.

Some of those who take advantage of this deal drive themselves there in expensive cars, while talking on their cell phone......


This current "health care bill" has nothing to do with health care, and everything to do with power.
Molon Labe, (King Leonidas of the Spartan Army)

Offline Langfur Buchsen

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 27
Re: Obama: 'Procedural' Spat Over Health Bill Vote Doesn't Worry Me
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2010, 06:01:53 PM »
thanks for your comments ....

I do not mean to be provocative, but to my way of thinking a person's right (?) to health care is at a different level to their right to have a car for transport or other community supplied infrastructure

Perhaps health care is such a basic human requirement that it should be approached differently from other personal property issues ? (... just a thought...)

As I said, I am fortunate to live in a country where I know I will get best available health care if I really need it, whether I am insured or not (by the way, I am insured), so it has been disappointing to see the diviseness/bitterness that the ongoing debate has caused in the US.

Here in Australia, the tax system levy for those who are not insured virtually forces wage earners with higher than average into health insurance.



Offline littlecanoe

  • Trade Count: (14)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2842
Re: Obama: 'Procedural' Spat Over Health Bill Vote Doesn't Worry Me
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2010, 07:15:42 PM »
thanks for your comments ....

I do not mean to be provocative, but to my way of thinking a person's right (?) to health care is at a different level to their right to have a car for transport or other community supplied infrastructure

Perhaps health care is such a basic human requirement that it should be approached differently from other personal property issues ? (... just a thought...)

As I said, I am fortunate to live in a country where I know I will get best available health care if I really need it, whether I am insured or not (by the way, I am insured), so it has been disappointing to see the diviseness/bitterness that the ongoing debate has caused in the US.

Here in Australia, the tax system levy for those who are not insured virtually forces wage earners with higher than average into health insurance.


LB  Good discussion.  I'm reminded that I take for granted my perspective of freedom as an American.  A friend is married to a Taiwanese lady.  Her parents now live in the states.  They are constantly amazed at the freedom that they enjoy here, the ability  to go certain places that they could never go to in their homeland.  I take this freedom for granted where they marvel at it and feel awkward.  In the same way, if a fella is raised in a country where high taxation is the norm he knows nothing different and doesn't see the big fuss.  Consider your overall tax burden as represented in your income tax and take home pay.  Then factor in your sales tax.  Now consider the power of expression through spending that you would enjoy if the withholding from your pay check was cut in half, reduced by 60%, you see where this goes.

An additional thought.  To say that health care is a right carries with it implications that you may not have considered.  
To imply the right of health care implies a inherent privilege to the consumption of a service.
That service must be rendered by one who has expended his wealth to acquire the knowledge and skills to act in the given capacity of health care provider.

Do you have a right to consume the benefit of my skills and expertise at little or no cost to yourself when you did not sacrifice time (years), money, energy, anguish to endow me with that skill and expertise?

As I see it, to imply a right to health care is to imply indenture or slavery of those who provide health care services.
  


To a greater degree the debate here is not about health care but about freedom and liberty and the right to self determination.

Offline teamnelson

  • Trade Count: (30)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4495
  • Gender: Male
Re: Obama: 'Procedural' Spat Over Health Bill Vote Doesn't Worry Me
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2010, 07:23:41 PM »
Langfur, if healthcare were a fixed issue for all consumers, then your argument that health care as a basic human requirement would have more merit. If I smoke a carton a day for 20 years, should I expect you to fund my cancer treatment? If I eat my way into type II Diabetes, will you pay for my amputations, quadruple bypass, nerve pills, etc. And who defines what an appropriate level of standardized service should be? Is botox covered, rogaine, gi bypass? Isn't my self-esteem a health issue? If the government can't afford to treat cancer, can it outlaw tobacco use to save HC $? Isn't that a violation of my rights? Can it ration my access to Lil Debbies? Will it ration high fat, high cholesterol foods? Can it override my cultural dietary preferences?

Now community health issues might be where we'd agree; clean drinking water, sewer and trash. Emergency services ... in other words the very most basic of human health requirements. Vaccines, inoculations to prevent the spread of virii. The argument could be made that those services that are most commonly shared are the ones most likely to require community solutions. But individualized health needs, which are often a factor of personal lifestyle choices or a least exacerbated by them.

Then there's the decision matrix; the government can afford 10 heart transplants this quarter, and you're 11. Sorry. How did I reach that conclusion? In those countries with nationalized health care we've seen a serious drop in care for the elderly and unborn, even the newly born with defects or high risk diseases. Simple utilitarian model; fixed amount of $ to provide care for 300 million plus people, someone loses.

Its a philosophical and ethical discussion for us Langfur. You've foregone that its a basic human right, fine. You might want to research which humans benefit most from the Australian model, and which do not.
held fast

Offline BBF

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10042
  • Gender: Male
  • I feel much better now knowing it will get worse.
Re: Obama: 'Procedural' Spat Over Health Bill Vote Doesn't Worry Me
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2010, 08:00:30 AM »
What does it cost per day to continue the present military actions, Foreign Aid, wasted funds on pet projects( pork)   vs the cost of a well run single payer universal HC plan. :-\

BTW. Australia has a better handle on illegal aliens, must be that ocean all around and saving $ by keeping its nose out of other Peoples affairs  ;D
What is the point of Life if you can't have fun.

Offline teamnelson

  • Trade Count: (30)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4495
  • Gender: Male
Re: Obama: 'Procedural' Spat Over Health Bill Vote Doesn't Worry Me
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2010, 08:36:14 AM »
BBF, regardless of cost, your question negates principle. Yes, I know its difficult for the rest of the world to understand why government mandated charity is such a hard pill for us to swallow. I'll keep my pistols and pay for my HC, thank you very much. In principle we like hard work, and enjoying the fruit of our labor. I guess folks from all over the world find that interesting because they still keep trying to move to our country.

Sadly, we do share a long border with 2 relatively worthless nations; one is a non-player in the world with a dwindling population, and entirely dependent defense and economic model, and the other is a corrupt 3rd world state with a rapidly expanding population. Our neighbor to the north is essentially a conduit for asian immigration into our country, and our neighbor to the south is spilling over. We could be like Australia I suppose and own everything to the sea in both directions; definitely would simplify immigration, but neither of those countries has a viable self-sufficient economy, so we'd actually lose out in the long run. No I think we're good; we just need to tighten up who we let cross the border. Especially when they're just coming to get HC they cant get in their own country.
held fast

Offline jimster

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2237
  • Gender: Male
Re: Obama: 'Procedural' Spat Over Health Bill Vote Doesn't Worry Me
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2010, 09:36:59 AM »
Nobody in the United States of America is denied helth care, it is the law if they need help they get it, and they do.  

I have met nobody, nor has anyone I talked met anyone who was turned down going to an emergency room with no insurance.
I think the standard is no matter how they fix you up, they put you on a plan to pay 5 bucks a month...I got this from a registerd nurse. They also sometimes tear up the bill, which they did for my niece, and say goodbye, who also did not have health insurance.  Nobody dies in the street for lack of health care, it's all hogwash.  All bull.  

Now to the main point....TeamNelson  is right on...The government does not generate revenue; it taxes citizens.   This says it all. You can fill in the rest.

Of course the reason why we don't want government to run this (or anything) is because they already are planning to be much less efficient than our largest insurance company...which insures 70 million people..with a staff of about 175,000.

Our government is trying to give insurance to only 30 million people, with a staff of 4 million!  Nacy Polosi's own numbers...she says she will create 4 million government jobs to support this, paid by us.  Why would we want something worse, much much worse that what we have? Why would we want to cut services on government programs, and tax them even more to do this? (medicare)  

To top that off...the legislation says NOBODY gets health care if this passes for almost half a decade...so what is the hurry to pass anything at all?  We just get taxed for 4 years with nobody getting anything, except the people on medicare suffer more...that is what they are really passing.

The legislaiton is bad, it does not make sense, and we tax payers do not have the money to give to government to flush it down the drain...again.

Basically...this is not about health care at all.  It's all politics....about control, about government getting more of our tax money to waste.
If they had a true health reform bill I'd vote for it my self...but there isn't one...what they offer is not reform of any kind at all...same as the stim package was not really a stim package at all...sure the people know that now...but they passed it already.  We just want to stop them...only ignorant people who have not read the original house bill thinks it's really health care reform.  Ignorant is not a bad word, they are not stupid, just ignorant.

Now they won't let us read the "drafts" they put forth....I want to read them.  (there is NO BILL YET) They won't let us.  Took me days to read the stim package and original health care bill from the house...but it seems it was worth it to not be ignorant of what they are doing.  

Opinons are great...but not worth much if you have not spent days reading what they passed in legislation.  All you know is what you hear.  We do not have to trust our government at all after what they have already passed, and tried to hide from the masses.  Best thing is to stop them.

I would add if it does pass, hope it goes to the high court...they are not following this very close...

Article 1, Section 7 of the Constitution, however, expressly states that for any bill to beome law "the Votes of both Houses shall be determined by the yeas and Nays, and the Names of the Persons voting for and against the bill shall be entered on the Journal of each House respectively." After that, under the Constitution, the president must either sign the bill or hold it for ten days (not counting Sundays), after which it will become law unless Congress adjourns in the interim.

I would wager there are five justices who are already angry and ready....

 









Offline Heather

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1471
  • Gender: Female
    • mymartialartsplus.com
Re: Obama: 'Procedural' Spat Over Health Bill Vote Doesn't Worry Me
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2010, 09:51:34 AM »
I have no idea how anyone who believes in the constitution can't be sickened by this entire idea of Government run health-care.  The mindset that health care is a basic human right just baffles me.  MILLIONS of people have to WORK in order to provide healthcare.  So I have a right to make OTHER PEOPLE work for me?  ::)  How can something not provided directly by God be deemed a RIGHT to the people.  Our rights don't come from the Government.  What the government giveth then the government can take away.   I don't have a right to ANYTHING except life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.  I may want a lot of things and good health is one of them.  I have to WORK for my wants and even my needs (food, clothing, shelter)  Why should healthcare be any different?  One more thought on this rant and I will be done for now.  Why would we let a group of people who can't get much of anything right be in TOTAL CONTROL of a system that handles life and death situations?  I know I don't trust our Government with my life?  Do you yours?

Heather
Strive for complete serenity in all aspects of life.
www.mymartialartsplus.com

A closed mind is often closed to the truth!

Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and loose both...Ben Franklin

Offline jimster

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2237
  • Gender: Male
Re: Obama: 'Procedural' Spat Over Health Bill Vote Doesn't Worry Me
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2010, 09:57:23 AM »
Yes Heather...what you said!  Right on...and thank you.

Offline LONGTOM

  • Trade Count: (391)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4644
  • Gender: Male
  • IF ONLY I COULD GO BACK-I WOULD BE A MOUNTAIN MAN!
Re: Obama: 'Procedural' Spat Over Health Bill Vote Doesn't Worry Me
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2010, 09:58:42 AM »
This just across one of the news channels.
Tacked on to one of the HC amendments is a hidden tax of 3.8% on all unearned income regardless of where or how it is generated.
Retirement plans, CDs, savings accounts, even tax free bonds.
Yet the LIAR IN THE WHITE HOUSE stated many times that no one making under $200,000 or $250,000 if filing jointly would see any tax increase. LIES LIES LIES!!!
It was also just announced that THE LIAR has just called off his scheduled trip until June.  
Tells me that he needs to do a little more arm twisting to even get enough votes to pass these amendments.
That WITCH and her cohorts were right, they are going to pass this stupid thing by hook or crook, anyway they can!



LONGTOM  
NRA Benefactor Life Member
NAHC Life Member
NRA Member-JAMES MADISON BRIGADE
IWLA Member
NRA/ILA Member
CCRKBA Member
US OLIMPIC SHOOTING TEAM supporter

"THE TREE OF LIBERTY FROM TIME TO TIME MUST BE REFRESHED WITH THE BLOOD OF PATRIOTS AND TYRANTS".
THOMAS JEFFERSON

That my two young sons may never have to know the horrors of war. 

I will stand for your rights as my forefathers did before me!
My thanks to those who have, are and will stand for mine!
To those in the military, I salute you!

LONGTOM 9-25-07

Offline jimster

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2237
  • Gender: Male
Re: Obama: 'Procedural' Spat Over Health Bill Vote Doesn't Worry Me
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2010, 10:41:32 AM »
Unfortunately, this appears  to not be happening, and we are just going to get a HC Bill that further advances the interests and profits of this HC corporo-government beast whilst enslaving more Americans to the whipping posts. This was allowed to happen by villianizing the HC systems of advanced countries, crying the mantra of free enterpize (indeed not a reality), buying of Congress, and fractioning the American public's conscience....quite a sophisticated manipulation process actually. In the end the American public will get the very HC system they unfortunately deserve....and all of this will go on to serve as the next basis of fleecing the American citizen and destruction of a once great country...a process unknown to the average citizen.

Man that is the truth. 

But even though it is not a constitutional right to have health care....we do what we can do by opening up the emergency rooms...and 5 to 10 bucks a month if they charge you is a lot cheaper than what most of us pay for premiums.  Cheapest anyone will ever find.  Anywhere. and if someone is too poor to pay that...what they going to take from you? 

I would disagree on being a right to have health care, at least in our constutution...but we as a nation do take care of our sick, it's the law in my state and probably most all others.  Nobody gets turned away in this state if they are in need.  Just got to go to the emergeny room...don't think it's a right to have someone take you there either in our constitution...but someone will.  They always do.  Wife cut herself real bad last year while I was at work, neighbor drove her there.

Now if they added an amendment to our constitution..."health care for all, including a ride there"...well, then it would be a right. 



Offline mechanic

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (32)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5112
  • Gender: Male
Re: Obama: 'Procedural' Spat Over Health Bill Vote Doesn't Worry Me
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2010, 02:43:57 PM »
TM7
You make some valid points, like in "you are already paying for their coverage," (emerg. room).  So the answer is to pass a 3000 page tax and control bill that would codify into law that I would always pay for their visit to the ER.

What I want is a bill that would bar them from using the ER unless it were an emergency, or make them pay the bill, even if they have to turn off their Blackberry service.

I want a bill that tells the illegal, that they will get this one emergency visit, but as soon as they are able, they will go home and come back legally or not at all.

I want a bill that removes favoritism.  I want my congressman to get the same healthcare I do, and pay what I pay.  I currently owe in excess of $40,000 for health bills, and that is WITH insurance.  I have paid down to that level from over $60,000.  I haven't asked the gov. for a dime, and don't plan to.  Nor do I want it from you, or the millionaire across town.  I tote my own freight.  I want everyone else to do the same.
Molon Labe, (King Leonidas of the Spartan Army)

Offline jimster

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2237
  • Gender: Male
Re: Obama: 'Procedural' Spat Over Health Bill Vote Doesn't Worry Me
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2010, 03:02:00 PM »
TM7, I think your making a great point about me paying for those 30 million or so that don't have life insurance and are getting it free right now in the emergency rooms.  Your right...we all are paying for this.  I also think we both agree this piece of legislation won't help that at all, only make it worse.

So all I'm saying is what's the hurry in passing anything at all, let's slow way down and stop this stuff.  Start over.  Reform something.  The things they are saying about millions of American don't have health care is a lie...they have it, at our expense, but they have it. Yes, we need to fix something.  

So we need to make sure they don't pass any of this, and we need to make sure they never pass a thing unless it's out there for all of us to read first, and anything little thing that spends our money foolishly needs to stop the whole bill right away.  Teach them nothing gets by us, not even a thousand bucks to study the mating habbits of the earth worm could be put in a bill, or it would shut it all down and nobody gets a thing. That's the only way we can come back out of the hole, it's the same way at our homes when we spent too much and need to get back in the black.  We also want them to follow the process laid down for them.  I bet if we went back 35 years and just reversed every stupid wasteful piece of legislation that costs us money since it passed we'd come up with a wad of money so big nobody would believe it.  We have spent trillions on things like...

Government researchers are spending more than $400,000 in taxpayer money to hit the bars in Argentina.
The National Institutes of Health are paying researchers to cruise six bars in Buenos Aires to find out why gay men engage in risky sexual behavior while drunk -- and just what can be done about it.


Thousands of things like this going on over many years...I'm still trying to find the number to the office where they study pig oder...that was in the stim package....but these offices are really hard to find.  ;D

What's wrong with those people in Congress anyway?  

Offline teamnelson

  • Trade Count: (30)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4495
  • Gender: Male
Re: Obama: 'Procedural' Spat Over Health Bill Vote Doesn't Worry Me
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2010, 03:33:49 PM »
I still contend its a matter of principle. Should we take care of the sick and dying? Absolutely, but like all moral decisions, they have to be driven by the collective will of the people, not imposed. Plenty of charitable hospitals out there, not for profits, even pro bono doctors doing great things for people. The same folks who argued so vehemently against the so called moral majority of the 80s are the same ones arguing vehemently to impose their morality on the tax payer. Why is HC more moral than the breakdown of the family, or any other community health issue? As TM7 said, sick people make healthy people sick, and that's true on many levels, not just biological.

The proponents of government ran HC claim to stand on the moral high ground, after all, doesn't everyone need medical care? That's a red herring, and nearly an ad hominem. It implies that the only solution to everyone's need is a government ran HC, and that's a specious assumption. HC reform is a must, and the place to start is to get the government out of HC now and then see what a real private system looks like before we go all public.

held fast

Offline steve y

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 151
Re: Obama: 'Procedural' Spat Over Health Bill Vote Doesn't Worry Me
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2010, 11:54:15 AM »
This is not about healthcare, education or the price of tea in China. It is about power and control. HC is just a vehicle to that end. Remember Saul Alinsky "the ends justify the means" this is the finest example to that phrase. When this passes our country as a constitutional republic is over. Most of us just won't know it yet. Our freedoms will be gone in a very short time in the name of doing what is good for us. If you like to drink soda, eat greasy cheese burgers, smoke, hunt, shoot, ride a bike without a helmet or any other risky behaviour, as so deemed by the government, you won't be partaking of those activities anymore not if you want to access your "right" to healthcare. Steve

Offline Langfur Buchsen

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 27
Re: Obama: 'Procedural' Spat Over Health Bill Vote Doesn't Worry Me
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2010, 11:58:29 AM »
Well... I do seem to have stirred up a bit of a "hornet's nest"

thanks very much for your input & replies... they do provide an insight into some of the thinking involved in the discussion of the subject

news has just broken here that President Obama is to cancel his visit to Oz because of the political kerfuffle in Washington

.......... it's disappointing,  he would have been made most welcome (as I'm sure any of you would be)

http://www.smh.com.au/national/obama-visit-plans-on-hold-as-president-stays-home-20100319-qmaj.html

Offline teamnelson

  • Trade Count: (30)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4495
  • Gender: Male
Re: Obama: 'Procedural' Spat Over Health Bill Vote Doesn't Worry Me
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2010, 12:08:52 PM »
I'm sorry he cancelled his visit, Australia has always been a great ally and we owe it you to keep the diplomatic channels open and healthy. He found time to talk with Iran, Syria, Libya, Egypt, Cuba while we suffered the worst recession in nearly a century ... but our allies continue to miss out on the pleasure of his company while he attempts to ram the HC issue through congress.

If he is able to visit, please don't be in a hurry to shoo him off. 
held fast

Offline BBF

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10042
  • Gender: Male
  • I feel much better now knowing it will get worse.
Re: Obama: 'Procedural' Spat Over Health Bill Vote Doesn't Worry Me
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2010, 12:31:00 PM »
TN
Since you consider Canada pretty much a useless/worthless country there is no point in going on with you on this other then when you get your HC you might wish you had what I and my fellow citizen have.
What is the point of Life if you can't have fun.

Offline Langfur Buchsen

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 27
Re: Obama: 'Procedural' Spat Over Health Bill Vote Doesn't Worry Me
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2010, 12:55:26 PM »
I'm sorry he cancelled his visit, Australia has always been a great ally and we owe it you to keep the diplomatic channels open and healthy. He found time to talk with Iran, Syria, Libya, Egypt, Cuba while we suffered the worst recession in nearly a century ... but our allies continue to miss out on the pleasure of his company while he attempts to ram the HC issue through congress.

If he is able to visit, please don't be in a hurry to shoo him off.  

...we don't throw shoes at visitors here.. (that was in Iraq I think) - if we don't like them we either just don't stand up for them or we turn our backs on them (neither of which I expect to happen to your Presidennt when he does eventually pay us a visit)


Offline ironglow

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32328
  • Gender: Male
Re: Obama: 'Procedural' Spat Over Health Bill Vote Doesn't Worry Me
« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2010, 01:00:58 PM »
  Langfur;
   When he gets there, how about you keep him ? We'll send Nazi Pelosi and Dingy Harry too !


   Here are a few things we don't like about the Progressives bill;

  http://www.resistnet.com/profiles/blogs/send-a-message-to-150
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline BBF

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10042
  • Gender: Male
  • I feel much better now knowing it will get worse.
Re: Obama: 'Procedural' Spat Over Health Bill Vote Doesn't Worry Me
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2010, 01:02:12 PM »
Instead of a shoe, perhaps a boomerang  :D :D
What is the point of Life if you can't have fun.

Offline teamnelson

  • Trade Count: (30)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4495
  • Gender: Male
Re: Obama: 'Procedural' Spat Over Health Bill Vote Doesn't Worry Me
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2010, 01:06:57 PM »
TN
Since you consider Canada pretty much a useless/worthless country there is no point in going on with you on this other then when you get your HC you might wish you had what I and my fellow citizen have.

BBF, Canada sends troops to American wars, participates right along side with all those foreign aid projects, and has enough pork of their own, and your HC system is quietly dismissed in conversation by our own proponents of a nationalized HC system in the US because its not a great model. So I'm trying to figure what your original question was other than a slap at a America?

We value liberty first, or we value nothing else. Feel free to do it whichever way you like in Canada.

TM7, is it negating the history of attack on the constitution to highlight this particular attack? I don't think so. I don't believe anyone is saying this is the only attack that's ever occurred, in fact I think folks like you have succeeded in raising awareness on how frail our constitution really is, so of all people you should be rejoicing that so many more are paying attention to constitutional issues like HC.

And you're correct, the Constitution does not prevent anyone from freely taking care of their brother, if they do so on their own time with their own funds. It does not however provide a framework to have the government impose a moral decision on the entire population to take care of their brother. I just had this debate with one of my classmates in National Security Decision making at the war college; by the same logic you suggest, she argues for a standing draft for government service to provide all those needs our brothers have. I thought the golden rule was a matter of faith; and I believe if all those of faith who claim the golden rule would practice it personally, government involvement would be a moot point.
held fast

Offline steve y

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 151
Re: Obama: 'Procedural' Spat Over Health Bill Vote Doesn't Worry Me
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2010, 01:37:53 PM »
Our Costitution as written is an extremely powerful document and not fragile at all. We are the ones who are fragile for it takes us to be strong enough to live by those tenents and be strong enough to stand on our own two feet, to not rely on someone else for our own welfare. It is because we have been weak in our citizenship and our responsibility to each other that our future as a nation may be in doubt. We can not expect to survive as a constitutional republic if we give up all our own personal sovereignty to the state. That is what is at the crux of this whole debate even though some people don't believe it is. We can take this conversation up in a couple of years and see how this all shakes out. Bottom line is that this much government control over our lives will come to no good. Steve

Offline Heather

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1471
  • Gender: Female
    • mymartialartsplus.com
Re: Obama: 'Procedural' Spat Over Health Bill Vote Doesn't Worry Me
« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2010, 03:34:25 PM »
There was a time in our history when men shouted words like "Give me liberty or give me death" and "I regret that I have but one life to loose for my country".  There was also a time in our history when men and women would do without food, shelter, etc. because they felt they were too good for a handout from anyone.  Those people didn't do without for long as they worked hard to get them selves back on their feet.  The idea of a Government handout was unheard of and utterly ridiculous. 

My grandfather used to say he wouldn't take a dime from anyone or anything on credit because he didn't want to owe anyone.  When you accept charity or something on credit you are at the mercy of your provider.  If you take care of yourself you answer to no one but yourself.

Now, we as a nation are giving up the freedoms that our ancestors fought and died for.  No one sees the shame in taking money from the government anymore as they are all lined up for their piece of the pie.  Steve you hit the nail on the head when you said the reason people are so willing to give up their liberty is because they would rather not have to stand on their own two feet.  It sickens me to know that some are so willing to just roll over and take it!  Well if you think health-care is 'good' just wait to see whats next!  As Obama, Pelosi and Reed all have voiced SEVERAL TIMES...HEALTHCARE IS JUST THE BEGINNING!!!


Heather
Strive for complete serenity in all aspects of life.
www.mymartialartsplus.com

A closed mind is often closed to the truth!

Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and loose both...Ben Franklin

Offline teamnelson

  • Trade Count: (30)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4495
  • Gender: Male
Re: Obama: 'Procedural' Spat Over Health Bill Vote Doesn't Worry Me
« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2010, 03:37:33 PM »
Heather, you're right ... education is next.
held fast