One Nation... Under God?

[Matt]

One Nation... Under God?
The Founding Fathers Speak Out on God, Religion and the First Amendment

"In God We Trust"

According to the U.S. Dept. of Treasury, the motto 'In God We Trust' came about not at the time of the Constitutional Conventions, but due to increased pressures to recognize God on coins and money during the Civil War.  In April 22, 1864, Congress passed an Amendment authorizing the motto to be placed on the two-cent coin.  It appeared on various coins throughout the years, and appeared on paper money in 1957.  The phrase was eventually printed on all paper bills, superseding the motto "E Pluribus Unum" (From Many, One) adopted by the Union in 1782.

Lets examine some of the freedoms that we in the United States enjoy because of our Constitution and our Bill of Rights.  One of these rights is the Freedom of Religion - guaranteed to all Americans in the First Amendment.  The wording of the phrase pertaining to religion, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof", has been the subject of endless speculation in our country's history.  Perhaps these quotes, from the men who wrote, debated and ultimately adopted the Bill of Rights, can shed some light on their view of God, religion in general, and the meaning of the Separation of Church and State.

 "I believe in one God, Creator of the universe.... That the most acceptable service we can render Him is doing good to His other children.... As to Jesus ... I have ... some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble."

- Benjamin Franklin (Alice J. Hall, "Philosopher of Dissent: Benj. Franklin," National Geographic, Vol. 148, No. 1, July, 1975, p. 94.)

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind." - Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason, 1794-1795.)

Every man "ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience." - George Washington (Letter to the United Baptist Churches in Virginia in May, 1789)

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god." - Thomas Jefferson (letter to Peter Carr, 10 August 1787)

"When a Religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its Professors are obliged to call for help of the Civil Power, it is a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." - Benjamin Franklin (from a letter to Richard Price, October 9, 1780;)

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of... Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."- Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason, 1794-1795.)

"Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error
all over the earth." - Thomas Jefferson (Notes on Virginia, 1782; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 363.)

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." - James Madison (Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments, 1785.)

"Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?" - John Adams

"The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretence, infringed.'' - James Madison (Original wording of the First Amendment; Annals of Congress 434 (June 8, 1789).)

"As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." - (Treaty of Tripoli, 1797 - signed by President John Adams.)

Treaty of Tripoli -----

"As to religion, I hold it to be the indispensable duty of government to protect all conscientious protesters thereof, and I know of no other business government has to do therewith." - Thomas Paine (Common Sense, 1776.)

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religion but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We shall not fight alone. God presides over the destinies of nations." - Patrick Henry

"That religion, or the duty we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and therefore all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience." - Patrick Henry (Virginia Bill of Rights, June 12, 1776.)

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So for all those who continuiosly state that The United States of America was "Founded" on "Christainity"  YOU ARE WRONG....

Funny how we as a people see fit to change history to fit the leaders agenda as we go....

Matt

[Heather]

I found some interesting information regarding the words 'Under God' in our pledge of Allegiance.  It amazes me how over the years that our country has been brainwashed so easily.  The Pledge of Allegiance was written in August 1892 by the socialist minister Francis Bellamy (1855-1931). Note: a minister of the time didn't see it appropriate to include God!

In its original form it read:
"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

In 1923, the words, "the Flag of the United States of America" were added. At this time it read:
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

In 1954, in response to the Communist threat of the times, President Eisenhower encouraged Congress to add the words "under God," creating the 31-word pledge we say today. Bellamy's daughter objected to this alteration. Today it reads:
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Heather

[teamnelson]

Well all you did is post a series of cherry picked quotes that show your presupposition best. Wouldn't be suprised if some other folks don't respond by posting their own series of cherry picked quotes that show their side best. May as well have just posted a link to any of the other myriad of sites where this debate has already been beat to death.

But you posted this one:

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religion but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We shall not fight alone. God presides over the destinies of nations." - Patrick Henry

Evidently there is a difference between religion and the Gospel, and one of our founders believed our nation to be founded on that Gospel.

[Matt]

Well all you did is post a series of cherry picked quotes that show your presupposition best. Wouldn't be suprised if some other folks don't respond by posting their own series of cherry picked quotes that show their side best. May as well have just posted a link to any of the other myriad of sites where this debate has already been beat to death.

But you posted this one:

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religion but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We shall not fight alone. God presides over the destinies of nations." - Patrick Henry

Evidently there is a difference between religion and the Gospel, and one of our founders believed our nation to be founded on that Gospel.

Saying that the country's founders were devout believers in Christ who embedded Christianity into the nation, is extremely hard to support.

As with the colonies general population, there were plenty of Christians among the Founding Fathers. Unfortunately, none were fundamentalist Protestant Christians of their own ilk  — since American Protestant fundamentalist Christianity did not exist until the Great Awakening of the 19th century.  That was AFTER the U.S. had already been founded.

The Founding Fathers were actually religiously-diverse.  In some cases easy labels in either direction do not apply. They were, collectively, no more “Christian” than they were “Deist” or “Unitarian” or any other assignation one might use. Not only did the religious views of the Founding Fathers vary from one to another, many were eclectic thinkers, and offered, at various times, different views about religion, both over time and according to their audience.

Matt

[MGMorden]

A while back it was sort of ironically pointed out on another forum that despite printing "In God We Trust" on our money, we spend more of that money on our military than any other country in the world.  It was somewhat comically suggested that we changed it to "In God We Trust, But Not TOO Much".  

As to the topic at hand however, Matt has pretty much nailed it already.  Some of the founding fathers were devout Christian, some were less devout, and there is evidence that some of them were borderline atheists.  In the end, if we honor the 1st amendment, it simply doesn't matter.  They, like the rest of us, were/are free to worship as they like.  The sooner we stop thinking of nations as relating to one particular religion, the better.

[Matt]

  The sooner we stop thinking of nations as relating to one particular religion, the better.

AMEN !!!!!!

[jimster]

I agree the founders had different levels of what they thought about God, it's not hard to look up the documented writings on how they felt so there is no need to post them here. Religion did play some role in the forming of our country, there is no doubt about that, but they were also very smart to think about freedom OF religion.  Freedom was their main goal, some of them figured freedom was a gift of God, some of them may have thought freedom was something every person should be born with regarldless, I still think freedom is the main thing and always will be. 

As far as being founded on "Christainity" ...I do not think so, I think it was a well rounded effort for freedom, with some prayer and hope involved along the way by some of them. 

[teamnelson]

Saying that the country's founders were devout believers in Christ who embedded Christianity into the nation, is extremely hard to support.

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religion but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We shall not fight alone. God presides over the destinies of nations." - Patrick Henry

[Heather]

Saying that the country's founders were devout believers in Christ who embedded Christianity into the nation, is extremely hard to support.

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religion but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We shall not fight alone. God presides over the destinies of nations." - Patrick Henry

Well Mr. Nelson it appears to me the only one cherry picking quotes to support their side is you.  Other than a quote already submitted to outline the diversity in which the Founding Fathers had in religion, what other fact or even personal opinion do you have to support your view?  Do you have any original thoughts of your own?

Heather

[MGMorden]

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religion but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We shall not fight alone. God presides over the destinies of nations." - Patrick Henry

A single quote from a single man, who cannot claim to speak for the whole.  Based on quotes from countless others from the period, it's obvious that he fell into the same trap that too many today fall into as well: assuming that his peers held the same beliefs as he did.

Nobody's postulating that there weren't devout Christians AMONG the founding fathers.  Nobody's even saying that there weren't a decent number.  However it's pretty obvious based on the writings of several prominent examples that they were not all of similar mind when it came to religion, and anyone, then or now, who claims otherwise is simply ignoring the evidence.

[Graybeard]

To say they were not at least reasonably religious men with a firm belief in GOD would be a rather silly assumption. What was it they said in the REAL founding document of this nation the Declaration of Independence? Weren't we just talking about and quoting that one recently.

Who was it that document listed as the giver of all rights? Iffen they didn't believe in GOD and were therefore not religious or folks who cared quite a bit I think the wording might have been a tad different.

Let's be realistic TN was quite correct that the article quoted was a cherry pick to establish a point of one side of the coin and there were without doubt plenty showing the other side if folks wanted to locate and post them.

I'm rather uncomfortable with this entire thread. We ended religious discussion on this site for a very specific reason and I do not think it worthwhile to begin it again. The path that takes us down is not one I want to return to.

[Dee]

This is a thread which has started much as a conversation would start, and has started many times in the past with a Christian witnessing to a non-believer. The Christian is interested in leading the non-believer to Christ, while the non-believer is interested in invalidating the WORD of Jesus Christ. For the Christian Witness nothing will be accomplished and as Christ said in Matthew: Shake the dust from your sandals and go to the next.
If one has a TRUE UNDERSTANDING of God's Word, then one has an immediate sense of the fact that the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights were all founded on CHRISTIAN PRINCILPLE, not Baptist, not Methodist, and certainly not Catholic, nor any other DENOMONATION, but Christianity itself instead. To debate or discuss this with non-believers whom want to prove otherwise, which would in fact validate their own belief system, is an exercise in futility.
The fact that the Pilgrims and others fled Europe to escape the oppression of the Catholic Church whom did not want them reading and studying the Bible is, historical. They were in fact seeking a country where they were free to study the Word themselves, which was actually taught by God Himself that they should do.
The purpose of this thread is just as TN stated it was for, and the quotes have indeed been "cherry picked" at random, and some out of context,to promote the posters own belief, or in this case, lack of belief. I would say, that this country has most certainly began the total abandonment of Christ and the Cross, and will pay dearly, COLLECTIVELY for that.
Also, as TN eluded to, there a very large difference between RELIGION, and CHRISTIANITY, and one must study Christianity to know the difference.
I shall end this with the words in 2nd Peter Chapter 3 verse 3. Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts. Which is to say, they wish to justify themselves, thru themselves. I would suppose they would also think they evolved from monkeys, and everything started prior to that, from a sludge pit.
I have said my piece, and can add nothing else to a conversation that will be down hill, and is headed down a dead end road.

[Matt]

Well hell why dont we just do away with the seperation of church and state and force everyone to be christians or die... That would put an end to it all and then all the christians could live out their days in peace and harmony....

As to the quotes being cherry picked... no... I listed the quotes I found in a google search as I was trying to find out when the "In God We Trust" came to be on money. I found it funny that so many on GBO argue that we are a "Christian Founded" nation when the evidence I uncovered did not support this belief. This topic was not meant as a DISCUSSION OF RELIGION rather a debate as to the evidence that the USA was not founded on on or by the christian religion but rather the FREEDOM OF RELIGION and really from it so much that IT IS THE VERY FIRST RIGHT Guarenteed by the Constituion.

GB lock the topic if you want as I really dont give a rats ass, I've been thinking of taking a break from all this BS anyway.

Matt

[teamnelson]

[on second thought]

What our founding fathers started was a pluralistic society; a society in which all religions are free to practice. The practice of religion was encouraged, and protected constitutionally. One thing all of our founding fathers agreed on was the value of faith in the establishing of a moral nation, and our laws are based on a sense of morality we receive not from secular philosophy, or granted by the common sense of the democracy, but by a Creator. As you may know from my other posts, I am a military chaplain - the direct byproduct of the pluralistic notion that gripped our founding fathers.

So we are neither a secular nation where religion has no voice in politics, nor a theocracy, where one religion has the only voice. We are a pluralistic nation, in which all religions are encouraged to have voices. So there is a place in schools for religion, in politics for religion, in every aspect of public life, religion should be a part of the conversation. The so called wall between state and church, is to protect the faithful from the state, not the other way around. The secularists who would seek to shut religion out of the public forum are themselves theocratics - they want the god of reason to be the state religion, but fortunately the constitution protects us from that tyranny.

[wareagleguy]

Nelson,
I think you see it one-sided.  The “wall” is to protect the people and not just the faithful.  These admendments were for the people of this country.  Sorry, but that includes the unfaithful as well.  I think the point was they were trying to avoid a church ran governement like Europe.  Many escaped Europe to have freedom of religion and the last thing these guys wanted was to go back to a government in which so many escaped.

[teamnelson]

Wareagle, you're right. We're all protected from any religion, or non-religion, having preeminence over another. Good point!

[mirage1988]

To that kind providence we owe this happy opportunity of consulting in peace on the means of establishing our future national felicity. And have we now forgotten that powerful friend? or do we imagine that we no longer need his assistance? I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth- that God Governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings, that "except the Lord build the House they labour in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better, than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our little partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing Governments by Human wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest.
I therefore beg leave to move-that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the Clergy of this City be requested to officiate in that Service-


Words of Benjamin Franklin from his request for prayer at the constitutional convention when they were deadlocked. You didn't run across that speech n your research Matt?

[Dee]

 

[subdjoe]

I'm not quite sure just what the point of the original post was.  But, here are a bunch of quotes by the founders: http://christianity.about.com/od/independenceday/a/foundingfathers.htm

Those kind of knock into a cocked hat the notion that most of the founders were agnostic, or deist, or whatever.

If the purpose of the OP was to suggest that Jeffersons comment about a 'wall of separation' means that there can be on hint of Christianity expressed by any elected or other government official at any time, then, horse puckey. 

[steve y]

From what I have read about our founders they were most definately different men but with one thing in common, a belief that their freedom didn't come from a barrel of a gun (mao) but from God. They didn't all believe in the same denomination but believed they were endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights. Isn't that what is important??? Wouldn't it be better to have a conversation about what we have in common spiritually than to not be able to have that conversation at all? We are looking at that very situation today. I would dearly love to be so blessed as to have the worst thing we could have to talk in this country is whether to have in God we trust on our money or one nation under God. Please Dear God I would love to only have to worry about that. Instead we have to worry about the exact opposite of being endowed by our Creator with certain unalienable rights. We have to worry about pure evil itself destroying all that He has created in this country. I hope we can all agree on that in the very least. Steve

[JustaShooter]

As I understand it, "filthy lucre" only recently became synonymous with money; it more commonly meant "shameful profit" or money obtained dishonestly back when the phrase was originally coined (no pun intended).

Just a Shooter

[gwhilikerz]

Matt this thread may indeed be bs but you started it. Was it to prove to us Christians that Christianity has no place in our government? Was it to show non-Christians that they also have religious freedom, but that freedom comes not from God but from some agnostic founding fathers? I'll just state this one time: I am a Christian and I am getting awfully tired of non-believers not only enjoying their freedom of whatever, but at the same time trying to diminish my faith. God is being taken out of everything American until there will be nothing American.

[steve y]

Amen gwhilkerz, Amen!  Steve

[Heather]

To that kind providence we owe this happy opportunity of consulting in peace on the means of establishing our future national felicity. And have we now forgotten that powerful friend? or do we imagine that we no longer need his assistance? I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth- that God Governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings, that "except the Lord build the House they labour in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better, than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our little partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing Governments by Human wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest.
I therefore beg leave to move-that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the Clergy of this City be requested to officiate in that Service-


Words of Benjamin Franklin from his request for prayer at the constitutional convention when they were deadlocked. You didn't run across that speech n your research Matt?

You do understand that Franklin was a Deist and NOT a CHRISTIAN.  He believed in God, but held NO VALUE on Jesus Christ!!!

Heather

[bigMikeA]

Amen gwhilkerz, Amen!

yES.  +100

[Josey Walls]

One Nation.... Under God.

You all seem to have a very short memory.











What happened to the people that made and used all these tools?

We have been here for only a few hundred years.

They were here 10,000 years ago.

Who's Nation...





 

[mirage1988]

Heather-what is the title of this thread again?

[Heather]

Heather-what is the title of this thread again?

Read the subject matter before asking stupid questions.  Matt laid out in the first post that "So for all those who continuiosly state that The United States of America was "Founded" on "Christainity"  YOU ARE WRONG...."  Your post on Franklin did NOTHING to disprove his statement therefore had little bearing on the discussion. 

Heather

[littlecanoe]

Interesting thread.

To correct references to history, based on my understanding and without footnotes, The Great Awakening occurred prior to the revolution (Prominent figures: Jonathan Edwards and George Whitefield).  The awakening of the early 1800's was more of a movement called the Revivalist movement for ease of discussion (Based on, among others, the teachings of Charles Finney who was greatly removed from Edwards and Whitefield).

The diversity of our founding fathers represented denominations was not that great.  The Puritans, Separatists, Presbyterians, Baptists (of that day) came out of the Reformation.  Reading of the founding documents of those denominations reveals a striking similarity of belief.  Odd man out is the Catholic church.  Wasn't that Maryland?

Many if not most of the founding fathers were Reformed and aware of if not raised on these teachings.  Whether the teachings were ascribed to through faith or through a moralistic framework they were the influence on our founding documents.  The civil law was based on Mosaic Representative government and Blackstone which I understand is based on common law of England which was based on these same Biblical principles.

While the humanism of the "Enlightenment" was still mostly a European thing it was likely beginning to influence colonial thinking as these principles were mixed in with Biblical teaching which was the framework of culture.  While some of the FF, I believe Jefferson, had this mixed influence, I'm not led to believe that it was Majority of the FF's.  I try to remember that many of these men were only 1-2 generations removed from those who came here for religious freedom.  They were sons, grandsons and great grandsons.  Specifically, Puritan and Presbyterian  teaching was strong on family instruction and learning scripture and theology.  This was something that was passed through the generations.  Having been passed on, taught and acted on, it would have very much influenced the FF's idealogy.

From studying and considering the scope of history that led to pilgrims coming to this shore I can hold no other view than that the founding fathers were influenced by Christian thought and principle.  That thought and principle is much different today than it was in their day.

TN.   Love the quote from Patrick Henry.  My favorite patriot and a Godly, God-fearing man!

lc

[wareagleguy]

Josey!

That one was great.  Yes, we do forget.