Author Topic: One Nation... Under God?  (Read 1409 times)

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Offline teamnelson

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Re: One Nation... Under God?
« Reply #30 on: March 15, 2010, 04:45:39 PM »
Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, John Jay, James Madison, and Alexander Hamilton are the men most often considered the Founding Fathers, and only 5 of them participated in the Constitutional Congress. Thomas Jefferson and John Adams were both overseas during the convention, and Samuel Adams, Thomas Paine, and Patrick Henry did not attend as they considered the articles of confederation sufficient. If you argue that the latter 5 were influential in the Constitution, then you must extend the same courtesy to any other influential person or school of thought in the nation at the time.

The first Great Awakening had already occurred in the 1730s, and scholars attribute the timing of the discontent of the colonials with British oppression directly to the Christian fervor stirred during that first awakening. The second Great Awakening would occur shortly after the Constitution was enacted; again scholars see the timing as in conjunction with the freedom of religious plurality prevalent throughout the new nation. And an influx of new religious pilgrims from Europe to the new free country. All other parallel studies of American history in the 18th and 19th centuries clearly indicate Christianity was the prevalent faith in the nation, and not by today's standards. Theology was the hobby of most folks, as evidenced by the publishing and import of books into the nation at that time.

As for the signers themselves, Charles Pinckney and John Langdon were founders of the American Bible Society. James McHenry was a founder of the Baltimore Bible Society. Rufus King helped found a Bible society for Anglicans. Abraham Baldwin was renown for his piety and devotion to his duties as a chaplain in the army during the War of Independence. James Wilson and William Paterson had prayer over juries as U. S. Supreme Court Justices. Roger Sherman, William Samuel Johnson, John Dickinson, and Jacob Broom were Christian theological authors. Here's a quote from a famous prayer offered at the continental congress, ""... That with one heart and one voice the good people may express the grateful feelings of their hearts, and consecrate themselves to the service of their Divine Benefactor; and that together with their sincere acknowledgments and offerings, they may join the penitent confession of their manifold sins, whereby they had forfeited every favour, and their humble and earnest supplication that it may please God, though the merits of Jesus Christ, mercifully to forgive and blot them out of remembrance;"

Samuel Adams, leader of the Sons of Liberty and signer of the Declaration of Independence wrote in the "Rights of Colonists" (1772) that "The rights of the colonists as Christians... may be best understood by reading and carefully studying the institutes of the Great Law Giver and Head of the Christian Church, which are to be found clearly written and promulgated in the New Testament."

Eleven of the first 13 States required faith in Jesus Christ and the Bible as qualification for holding public office.

On and on and on ... it is impossible to extricate the influence of Christianity out of the founding of our nation. Does that mean it was established to be a Christian theocracy? No. But neither was it founded in a secular vacuum, despite the best efforts of revisionists.
held fast

Offline mirage1988

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Re: One Nation... Under God?
« Reply #31 on: March 15, 2010, 05:05:04 PM »
Heather-what is the title of this thread again?

Read the subject matter before asking stupid questions.  Matt laid out in the first post that "So for all those who continuiosly state that The United States of America was "Founded" on "Christainity"  YOU ARE WRONG...."  Your post on Franklin did NOTHING to disprove his statement therefore had little bearing on the discussion. 

Heather
And that is exactly why nobody posts here anymore, it is the same old tired subjects beaten into the ground and if you have a different opinion than GB or matt you are asking stupid questions. I posted a counterpoint to matts post to show a different side of Ben Franklin than the teachers union rewrite of history is trying to do and you jump on me for it.

Offline Oldshooter

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Re: One Nation... Under God?
« Reply #32 on: March 15, 2010, 05:16:21 PM »
Quote
They were here 10,000 years ago.

Who's Nation...



They lost it to the people that founded this nation and we will loose it to the people that take it away from us!

Someone will hold up a few hands full of the relics of our weapons and tools and say what happened to these people? We are no better than the Aboriginal peoples that first settled here from across the Bering straits.

We may not hold it as long largely due to the fact that we hold no one responsible for their actions and hold no one accountable for irresponsibility.

The Ten commandments may not be such a bad idea for just staying the course!

The "Indians" had rules and if you didn't carry your weight you were lost.

It ain't about being perfect its about trying to treat others as you would have them treat you.

Believe how you wish! I think the Founders of these United States wanted freedom of Religion not freedom from it!
“Owning a handgun doesn’t make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.”

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

Offline scootrd

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Re: One Nation... Under God?
« Reply #33 on: March 15, 2010, 05:28:12 PM »
Texas Board of Education cuts Thomas Jefferson out of its textbooks.

The Texas Board of Education has cut cuts Thomas Jefferson out of its textbooks. “the board’s far-right faction wielded their power to shape lessons on the civil rights movement, the U.S. free enterprise system and hundreds of other topics”:

The Board removed Thomas Jefferson from the Texas curriculum, “replacing him with religious right icon John Calvin.”
The Board refused to require that “students learn that the Constitution prevents the U.S. government from promoting one religion over all others. Teachers in Texas will be required to cover the Judeo-Christian influences of the nation's Founding Fathers, but not highlight the philosophical rationale for the separation of church and state.

Far right doesn't care for Jefferson because of his stance on separation of church and state.

So now they will rewrite history.
"if your old flathead doesn't leak you are out of oil"
"I have strong feelings about gun control. If there is a gun around I want to be controlling it." - Clint Eastwood
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjaman Franklin
"It's better to be hated for who you are , then loved for who your not." - Van Zant

Offline Heather

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Re: One Nation... Under God?
« Reply #34 on: March 15, 2010, 05:28:48 PM »
Heather-what is the title of this thread again?

Read the subject matter before asking stupid questions.  Matt laid out in the first post that "So for all those who continuiosly state that The United States of America was "Founded" on "Christainity"  YOU ARE WRONG...."  Your post on Franklin did NOTHING to disprove his statement therefore had little bearing on the discussion. 

Heather
And that is exactly why nobody posts here anymore, it is the same old tired subjects beaten into the ground and if you have a different opinion than GB or matt you are asking stupid questions. I posted a counterpoint to matts post to show a different side of Ben Franklin than the teachers union rewrite of history is trying to do and you jump on me for it.

I wasn't jumping on you, I was simply pointing out Franklin's religious preference.   Matt laid out a Patrick Henry quote that leaned much more toward proving that our country was founded as a CHRISTIAN nation.  Matt nor I will argue that some of the founders had faith in God...the issue was over Christianity specifically.  Your 'counterpoint' proved our point.  Franklin (a Deist) holding a prayer in which held no religious affiliations displays that our FF were tolerant of other religions and actually wanted RELIGIOUS FREEDOM in our young country.  Our founders in general had faith in God...and yes some had faith in Jesus Christ, but they chose to leave their religion out of our Government.  

As to the stupid question remark...the only stupid questions are ones you already know the answer to.  Asking me the title of the thread served no purpose other than to display that you either didn't read the thread in its entirety before jumping in and posting, or you missed Matt's point on Christianity.

Heather
Strive for complete serenity in all aspects of life.
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A closed mind is often closed to the truth!

Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and loose both...Ben Franklin

Offline scootrd

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Re: One Nation... Under God?
« Reply #35 on: March 15, 2010, 05:34:26 PM »
Our founders in general had faith in God...and yes some had faith in Jesus Christ, but they chose to leave their religion out of our Government. 
Heather

Except I guess in Texas apparently
"if your old flathead doesn't leak you are out of oil"
"I have strong feelings about gun control. If there is a gun around I want to be controlling it." - Clint Eastwood
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjaman Franklin
"It's better to be hated for who you are , then loved for who your not." - Van Zant

Offline Oldshooter

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Re: One Nation... Under God?
« Reply #36 on: March 15, 2010, 05:38:54 PM »
Our founders in general had faith in God...and yes some had faith in Jesus Christ, but they chose to leave their religion out of our Government. 
Heather

Except I guess in Texas apparently

So would you say that because the folk in power in the US government NOW. Are lets say "socialist",  that  "WE" whom they represent, are also Socialist?
“Owning a handgun doesn’t make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.”

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

Offline Heather

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Re: One Nation... Under God?
« Reply #37 on: March 15, 2010, 05:41:25 PM »
Our founders in general had faith in God...and yes some had faith in Jesus Christ, but they chose to leave their religion out of our Government. 
Heather

Except I guess in Texas apparently

The liberal/conservative slants, the distortion in history, and the just out right lies our children are being taught in public schools all across this nation, not just Texas, is the reason I pulled my children out of public school and are homeschooling them.  The less people are taught about their GOD GIVEN RIGHTS, and the men and women who have died fighting for those rights, the easier they are to control!

Heather
Strive for complete serenity in all aspects of life.
www.mymartialartsplus.com

A closed mind is often closed to the truth!

Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and loose both...Ben Franklin

Offline scootrd

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Re: One Nation... Under God?
« Reply #38 on: March 15, 2010, 05:43:44 PM »
Our founders in general had faith in God...and yes some had faith in Jesus Christ, but they chose to leave their religion out of our Government.  
Heather

Except I guess in Texas apparently

So would you say that because the folk in power in the US government NOW. Are lets say "socialist",  that  "WE" whom they represent, are also Socialist?

No what I saying is far right cant have it both ways.. Cant on the right hand promote strict adherence to the constitution  as constitutionalists,  then with asweep of the pen in their left hand omit Jefferson and act as the revisionists they despise. That's called hypocrisy.

and yes I suffer from a bit of hypocrisy myself cause I wish they had never taken the pledge of allegiance out of school, but I also understand I cannot impose my personal will on others. which is what Texas has done this past week. 
"if your old flathead doesn't leak you are out of oil"
"I have strong feelings about gun control. If there is a gun around I want to be controlling it." - Clint Eastwood
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjaman Franklin
"It's better to be hated for who you are , then loved for who your not." - Van Zant

Offline mirage1988

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Re: One Nation... Under God?
« Reply #39 on: March 15, 2010, 05:46:48 PM »
Heather-
After a reread I realized it was my mistake- I was raised a christian and as that I believe in the trinity. When I read the title "under God", Christ was subconsciously substituted for God when I read it.

Offline Heather

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Re: One Nation... Under God?
« Reply #40 on: March 15, 2010, 05:47:46 PM »
Our founders in general had faith in God...and yes some had faith in Jesus Christ, but they chose to leave their religion out of our Government. 
Heather

Except I guess in Texas apparently

So would you say that because the folk in power in the US government NOW. Are lets say "socialist",  that  "WE" whom they represent, are also Socialist?

I believe Our Founding Fathers were very clear on this subject matter.  I believe  "That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government"  So to answer your question, no, if our Government continues on the path it is on then I believe it is my duty to help alter it or abolish it and start over!

Heather
Strive for complete serenity in all aspects of life.
www.mymartialartsplus.com

A closed mind is often closed to the truth!

Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and loose both...Ben Franklin

Offline Oldshooter

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Re: One Nation... Under God?
« Reply #41 on: March 15, 2010, 05:58:40 PM »
Our founders in general had faith in God...and yes some had faith in Jesus Christ, but they chose to leave their religion out of our Government. 
Heather

Except I guess in Texas apparently

So would you say that because the folk in power in the US government NOW. Are lets say "socialist",  that  "WE" whom they represent, are also Socialist?

No what I saying is far right cant have it both ways.. Cant on the right hand promote strict adherence to the constitution  as constitutionalists,  then with asweep of the pen in their left hand omit Jefferson and act as the revisionists they despise. That's called hypocrisy.

and yes I suffer from a bit of hypocrisy myself cause I wish they had never taken the pledge of allegiance out of school, but I also understand I cannot impose my personal will on others. which is what Texas has done this past week. 

I'm thinking you may be getting your information from the media. I dont agree with any type of changing the history books. why not just write the unbiased history just as it occurred. Is that Possible?

As to what is happening in Austin or has happened, I think it safe to NOT decide what did indeed happen by reading it in news Print or by watching state run media.

Let me say that if what you said is true then I agree that it is Hypocrisy, But I find it hard to believe that the FAR right is controlling anything in Austin!

“Owning a handgun doesn’t make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.”

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

Offline scootrd

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Re: One Nation... Under God?
« Reply #42 on: March 15, 2010, 06:05:24 PM »
Let me say that if what you said is true then I agree that it is Hypocrisy, But I find it hard to believe that the FAR right is controlling anything in Austin!

Happened just this week

“I reject the notion by the left of a constitutional separation of church and state,” said David Bradley, a conservative from Beaumont who works in real estate. “I have $1,000 for the charity of your choice if you can find it in the Constitution.”

Cynthia Dunbar, a lawyer from Richmond who is a strict constitutionalist and thinks the nation was founded on Christian beliefs, managed to cut Thomas Jefferson from a list of figures whose writings inspired revolutions in the late 18th century and 19th century, replacing him with St. Thomas Aquinas, John Calvin and William Blackstone. (Jefferson is not well liked among conservatives on the board because he coined the term “separation between church and state.”)

“The Enlightenment was not the only philosophy on which these revolutions were based,” Ms. Dunbar said.

And poof in a 10 / 5 vote Jefferson was gone...

After the vote, Ms. Knight said, “The social conservatives have perverted accurate history to fulfill their own agenda.”

so In Austin it appears a Real estate agent and a Lawyer can rewrite text books...
"if your old flathead doesn't leak you are out of oil"
"I have strong feelings about gun control. If there is a gun around I want to be controlling it." - Clint Eastwood
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjaman Franklin
"It's better to be hated for who you are , then loved for who your not." - Van Zant

Offline mirage1988

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Re: One Nation... Under God?
« Reply #43 on: March 15, 2010, 06:13:43 PM »
Let me say that if what you said is true then I agree that it is Hypocrisy, But I find it hard to believe that the FAR right is controlling anything in Austin!

Happened just this week

“I reject the notion by the left of a constitutional separation of church and state,” said David Bradley, a conservative from Beaumont who works in real estate. “I have $1,000 for the charity of your choice if you can find it in the Constitution.”

Aand poof in a 10 / 5 vote Jefferson was gone...

Even the course on world history did not escape the board’s scalpel.

Cynthia Dunbar, a lawyer from Richmond who is a strict constitutionalist and thinks the nation was founded on Christian beliefs, managed to cut Thomas Jefferson from a list of figures whose writings inspired revolutions in the late 18th century and 19th century, replacing him with St. Thomas Aquinas, John Calvin and William Blackstone. (Jefferson is not well liked among conservatives on the board because he coined the term “separation between church and state.”)

“The Enlightenment was not the only philosophy on which these revolutions were based,” Ms. Dunbar said.

After the vote, Ms. Knight said, “The social conservatives have perverted accurate history to fulfill their own agenda.”
And the liberals haven't perverted actual history to fulfill their own agenda? How about actual proof of global warming for a start?

Offline scootrd

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Re: One Nation... Under God?
« Reply #44 on: March 15, 2010, 06:16:32 PM »
And the liberals haven't perverted actual history to fulfill their own agenda? How about actual proof of global warming for a start?

we are not debating global warming - to go off on any tangent is just to redirect the debate away from the issue. Hypocrisy is hypocrisy , to not require that “students learn that the Constitution prevents the U.S. government from promoting one religion over all others. and to have Teachers in Texas teach Judeo-Christian influences of the nation's Founding Fathers, but not highlight the philosophical rationale for the separation of church and state and to discard or dismiss Jefferson and separation of church and state is revisionist .  These folks are fair weather constitutionalists. I have no problem debating global warming but not at the expense of hijacking this thread. and 2 wrongs don't make a right.
"if your old flathead doesn't leak you are out of oil"
"I have strong feelings about gun control. If there is a gun around I want to be controlling it." - Clint Eastwood
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjaman Franklin
"It's better to be hated for who you are , then loved for who your not." - Van Zant

Offline mirage1988

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Re: One Nation... Under God?
« Reply #45 on: March 15, 2010, 06:28:46 PM »
You put up the first diversion, then accuse me of changing the subject-good try! Better luck next time.