Ok sell me the 25-06 over the .243 Win

[Brithunter]

Ok we have a quandry here  I brought a nice looking .243 Win chambered rifle and it seems to shoot well however it has issues that can be fixed but it's going take some time and cost to do so and in the end I will still have a pitted bore to deal with so it's going back!

   That means I need a replacement  but before you start mentioning your favorite makes my choice is limited to one maker and their models as it has to fit into my small collection  I have been scanning the adverts here and the Guntrader UK websight for suitable rifles from the Parker-Hale range including their Midland line and one that I can across is this P-H 1200 SC (Super Clip = drop mag) in 25-06. Now it looks good and the price is not so high but could be better  but I have no experience with the 25-06 cartridge  but it will be used for vermin (Red Fox) and Deer. I do already however rifles chambered for the 270 Winchester cartridge.

    Now the pluses as I see it of the .243 Winchester cartridge is it's lower cost and with powder already at £36 ($57:60 US) per 1lb tub here the extra rounds per 1lb tub would be nice indeed.

 So as I said sell me the benefit of the 25-06 over the .243.

[mjbgalt]

better power, heavier bullets available.


i do like the .25-06 better than the .243, but i also do not own a .270. they are so close that it almost doesn't matter. the .25-06 kicks less and uses less powder but not by much.

[41 mag]

Well the two are both great calibers. In my case deciding on which one I would get if I were starting from scratch would be the 25-06 simply due to the amount of donor cases I already had on hand. Since my pop was an avid shooter of the 30-06 I already had several thousand cases on hand to simply neck down and load up.

I was given a .243 when I was a youngun and still have it. The cases I have for it are still some I shot as factory way back in the early 70's. If choosing one over the other simply from a economy standpoint then the .243 would get the nudge if getting an average of about 50 more rounds per can of powder were critical. If not the advantages of being able to put a heavier bullet out at a higher velocity for bigger game would make the .25 better in my mind. Either can be loaded very accurately from the parent cases, so brass isn't an isse as there is a LOT of surplus and once fired stuff available. THe 06 might be a tad cheaper for surplus or availability than the .308.

For red deer and fox, you can use the same load for the 25 for either simply using a different bullet for either, depending on if your pelt hunting or not. If so the 100gr Barnes should take care of either very reliably. Or you could go with the 110gr Nosler BT for the vermin and simply use the Partition for the deer.

From a pure ballistic standpoint the 25 will outdo the .243 in just about every situation, especially with the heavier bullets. Even with the lighter ones, which would be the 85's in .257 vs the 55 in .243 the 25 will still pack more energy while maybe not going as fast will hold the wind better as well.

Well I guess it really comes down to which one lights your fire the hottest? I have hunted with both coming on 40yrs for the .243, and close to 20 for the 25 and still use each of them for at least a weekend or two every season. Of course my mainstay now is my Ruger Compact in .308, with it's 16.5" barrel and 6.5# weight it is hard to beat for a toting around, fast action rifle. It will do all I need doen out to 400yds conditions being right and if I can hold her steady.

I doubt I put up anything you haven't already considered, but hopefully it will help sort something out.

Good luck.

[Brithunter]

Hmmmm I think I had better fill this out a bit more. You see I already have the followign calibres and chamberings:-

.222 Remington
6mm Remington
.243 Winchester
6.5x55
270 Winchester
7x57 Mauser
30-30 Winchester
.308 Winchester
30-06 Springfield
7.92mm (8mm Mauser)

     You see that I have most bases covered 

     Now I have a 2nd .243 Winchester chambered rifle on the way, it's a Midland 2100 by Parker-Hale  to go with the BSA Majestic already here. so I am not dead set on another .243. But I do need whatever rifle I get to be screwcut for a sound moderator. The 25-06 P-H Super Clip is screw cut already. This is because more places are asking you to use sound moderators (silencers) due to health and safety (noise pollution and hearing damage) concerns when booking stalking (Deer Hunting).

    Any Fox shooting is generally for pest control . Just looking at the handloading data and I see that the 25-06 uses around 50.0 grains of powder against the .243's 40.0 grains and that's 35 loaded cartridges different. Hmmm I am still leaning towards the 25-06 mainly because it's a model I don't have.

[mjbgalt]

oh, well, heck, if this is just for kicks and fun, then....

i find that the .25-06 feeds slicker and hits much harder. it can shoot the 100 grain bullet 3200 fps with no problems, as the .243 shoots that weight only 2900 or so, unless you have a 24" barrel and load hot.

it's easy to form brass from .30-06 which is VERY common. the only downside is the muzzleblast but if you have a silencer, than go for it!

[SHOOTALL]

Anything a 243 will do a 2506 will do and then some .

[Brithunter]

mjbgalt  

oh, well, heck, if this is just for kicks and fun, then....

Nope I am quite serious actually   Now the 25-06 is going to be more expensive as:-

1) I don't have dies for it

2) it needs a scope   but then I have just brought a Simmons Pro Hunter Master Series? so I could try that, or take the 6x42 off the Brno 601( and put the Zeiss Jena ZF4/N back on the Brno) and the rifle does have Leupold base and 1" rings.

3) I don't have any 25-05 brass but of course I do have quite a bit of .270 and 30-06 brass so? but I would prefer the correct brass.

4) I don't have any bullets in .25 cal  

   If I can get it sorted out licence wise the dealer with the 25-06 will ship it to a nearer dealer (only 30 miles away instead of 3 hours drive) Colin at the nearer gunshop charges £25 for doing the transfer but that's cheaper than paying the petrol costs  . I need to check what Doug charges as he is only 10 miles away.

    Now IF I can get it sorted out then perhaps I could use it in Febuary on a little hunting trip I am planning probably to Perthshire, Scotland  
 however it's doubtful I will have a sound moderator by then so.................... and that depends on how well it shoots if not I will have to take one of the others.

  And of course I have not seen the rifle in person  

Edit:-  Hmmm this might take a week or two now as I just did the number crunching bit and It's going to take a week or two to get the extra money together    I forgot all about the scope and buying the powder and bullets the other day ....whoops.

[Val]

I was once told that if I was going to primarily going to shoot at varmints with an occasional deer, go with the .243. If you are going to primarily shoot at deer with an occasional varmint, go with the 25-06. I know have both of them. I find them both extremely effective on deer and I use my .223 for varmint.

[SHOOTALL]

I shoot both with the 2506 , use a 100 gr. BT for everything . 3300 FPS . It will group with bullets touching in one hole .

[yooper77]

Ok we have a quandry here  I brought a nice looking .243 Win chambered rifle and it seems to shoot well however it has issues that can be fixed but it's going take some time and cost to do so and in the end I will still have a pitted bore to deal with so it's going back!

   That means I need a replacement  but before you start mentioning your favorite makes my choice is limited to one maker and their models as it has to fit into my small collection  I have been scanning the adverts here and the Guntrader UK websight for suitable rifles from the Parker-Hale range including their Midland line and one that I can across is this P-H 1200 SC (Super Clip = drop mag) in 25-06. Now it looks good and the price is not so high but could be better  but I have no experience with the 25-06 cartridge  but it will be used for vermin (Red Fox) and Deer. I do already however rifles chambered for the 270 Winchester cartridge.

    Now the pluses as I see it of the .243 Winchester cartridge is it's lower cost and with powder already at £36 ($57:60 US) per 1lb tub here the extra rounds per 1lb tub would be nice indeed.

 So as I said sell me the benefit of the 25-06 over the .243.

Hmmmm I think I had better fill this out a bit more. You see I already have the followign calibres and chamberings:-

.222 Remington
6mm Remington
.243 Winchester
6.5x55
270 Winchester
7x57 Mauser
30-30 Winchester
.308 Winchester
30-06 Springfield
7.92mm (8mm Mauser)

     You see that I have most bases covered 

     Now I have a 2nd .243 Winchester chambered rifle on the way, it's a Midland 2100 by Parker-Hale  to go with the BSA Majestic already here. so I am not dead set on another .243. But I do need whatever rifle I get to be screwcut for a sound moderator. The 25-06 P-H Super Clip is screw cut already. This is because more places are asking you to use sound moderators (silencers) due to health and safety (noise pollution and hearing damage) concerns when booking stalking (Deer Hunting).

    Any Fox shooting is generally for pest control . Just looking at the handloading data and I see that the 25-06 uses around 50.0 grains of powder against the .243's 40.0 grains and that's 35 loaded cartridges different. Hmmm I am still leaning towards the 25-06 mainly because it's a model I don't have.

The reasons are obvious to me, the ballistics & energy of the 2506 Remington versus the 243 Winchester, which really isn’t a fair comparison.   I personally like any cartridge that can be made from the 30-06 Springfield parent case.  If you feel you want to add it to your list, then buy it.   I also don’t believe there is any animal in Europe that cannot be taken with the 243 Winchester and any 100 grain bullet.
yooper77

[Brithunter]

Hmmm I would rather have a larger calibre for Moose, Boar and certainly for Bears and yes we do have those in Europe.

Meanwhile we have a slight twist as whilst I was picking up a BSA Hunter in 222 Remington the guy in the gunclubs shop said he should hear about some .243's so we will hang fire on the 25-06 for now but I still fany that Super Cllip rifle  .

[wind drift]

Easy 25-06.I have allways hunted with 308 but the other night took my 06 out for its first kill nice 10 pt. used 117 gamekings. Shot him right behind the shoulder at 125 yards hit the ground like it was hit by a MAC truck very impressed by the 25-06.   

[pastorp]

Sorry Brithunter, but you really don't need another rifle. From your list I would say you got it covered. Thread one of your existing rifles for the silencer and spend the rest on ammo.  See that was easy, wasn't it?

Regards,

[charles p]

Looks to me like you NEED a 25-06 more than another 243.  Shoot the fox with the 222 and use the 25-06 for deer size game.

[Brithunter]

Sorry Brithunter, but you really don't need another rifle. From your list I would say you got it covered. Thread one of your existing rifles for the silencer and spend the rest on ammo.  See that was easy, wasn't it?

Regards,

That IS NOT THE CORRECT ANSWER 

Now the reason for acquiring one already screw cut is so I don't have to alter one that I already have    and I had given it a lot of thought as to which one would be more suitable to screw cut IF I had to go that route. Then only ones I could come up with are a Sporterised Swedish Mauser or the Parker-Hale 1200V in 6mm Remington. The Swede has a fore sight the 1200V is a bare barrel. Then there is the cost involved the only place I am aware of that does the screwcutting charges around $136 US for doing so then there is re-proofing and that associated cost of that by which time I can nearly buy another rifle 

[yooper77]

Hmmm I would rather have a larger calibre for Moose, Boar and certainly for Bears and yes we do have those in Europe.

Meanwhile we have a slight twist as whilst I was picking up a BSA Hunter in 222 Remington the guy in the gunclubs shop said he should hear about some .243's so we will hang fire on the 25-06 for now but I still fany that Super Cllip rifle  .

Yep I know, so 243 Winchester with 100 gr bullets and 30-06 Springfield with 180 gr bullets will cover them all easliy.

yooper77

[Coyote Hunter]

Brithunter –

In my opinion the .25-06 is the best dual-purpose cartridge available.  With 75g bullets it is a superb low-volume (read “red fox”, “coyote”, etc.) varmint cartridge and with heavier bullets it is a superb deer cartridge.  Earlier this month I saw a 6x6 bull elk, a cow elk and a 4x4 mulie buck that had been taken by a 12-year old girl from Michigan – with a .25-06 and Hornady 117g bullets.  The bull took two before going down but the second shot was probably not necessary per the dad.  The others were one-shot deals.

While I don’t have a .25-06, I do have a long-action .257 Roberts that I run with +P loads, just behind 25-06 velocities.  It is easily my favorite rifle. 

Get the .25-06 and you can sell the .243 and .270…

[Brithunter]

Get the .25-06 and you can sell the .243 and .270…

 

Wot sell  I am still hurting over having to sell two rifles to make room for these new acquistions  However I may have to sacrifice one of the 270's to make room for another rifle but that's not the point in this thread.

   So far the only real benefit of the 25-06 that I can really see is the slightly larger diameter bulelt of the 25 cal. For the Deer I am likely to hunt I don't really need to full throttle loads so my Handloads will be slightly less in velocity and I do believe that the 100 grain bullet would do it all in either calibre.

[pastorp]

Well Brithunter, since all our answers are wrong what is the purpose of this thread? 

Regards,

[SHOOTALL]

OK , the 243 has bullets as low as 55 gr. the 2506 85 maybe some in the 70 gr range . so you can go lite with the 243 .
 2506 can go to 120 where the 243 is around 100 so with the 2506 you can go heavy . That said what advantage is more important to you ? lite or heavy ? The 2506 will do better in wind . will retain more energy at distance . Can be used on larger game . But if you don't shoot on windy days , at long range or at larger game the 243 should be just the ticket .

[Brithunter]

Ok the idea is to learn about the 25-06  OK I can read the loading manuals and check the ammo charts but that's cold data. It's not real experience  .

If I decide to go for it I envisage it's usage on everything from our Red Fox up to Red Deer eventually. Not the .243 is used for the same things and has been for years, not by me as yet, I am fairly new to the .243 Winchester as well previously the smallest cartridge I used for both Fox and Deer was the 6.5x55.

    So whichever cartridge I am using needs to be effective but without destroying much meat, please bear in mind that our Deer species vary in weight from the Muntjac at about 20-30lbs through roe at 30-60lbs to Fallow at 60-120lbs then up through Sika to Red Deer which can reach over 300 lbs in weight. In Scotland the law requires the use of a minimum 100 grain bullets for all but Roe Deer but as I don't live in Scotland or near it that's only going to be a once or twice a year (if I am lucky) so the 25-05 would be a better choice for the Scottish trips even though the 243 is used there a lot.

     In Scotland wind is a factor due to the open hill where a lot of the hunting is done. Although LFC bullets are interesting they are not as good at retaining velocity and energy so in the .243 I won't go lower than 70 grains and in the 25-06 you mention 85 grains. I have to learn the weight range fo the .25 cals  .


   I didn't hear back for the licensing officer so I will have to chase it up tomorrow and speak to them, it's possible although unlikely that they will refuse the 25-06.

Oh pastorp , you answers are not all wrong but I think your missing the point. You see I collect as well as shoot and the idea is to add to the collection but I have to operate within our daft rules here in the UK.

[SHOOTALL]

Real experince , i have kill deer for 25 years with a 2506 . Same for ground hogs and such . My Rem 700 BDL will put 5 shots in a hole as small as a dime at 100 yards . I shoot one bullet most of the time 100 gr BT .

[DDZ]

I also have used my 25-06 Rem 700BDL, hunting deer and varmints for the last 36 years. I use one load for everything, with the 117 gr. Sierra spitser flatbase. I have many rounds through this rifle and it will still shoot one inch groups. I don't think there is a better caliber than the 25-06 for pulling double duty on deer sized game and varmints.   

[pastorp]

Over the years I've owned several 25/06 rifles. I really like the caliber but the preformance is really close to the 270.

If you want a deer rifle to hunt 20-60 lb animals with little meat destruction I don'r believe the 25/06 is the right gun. In the desert southwest in the USA I used the 25-06 as a jackrabbit, coyote, & deer rifle. With 117-120gr bullets it was a amazing mule deer rifle. Fully the equal of the 270 IMO. I also used it with great sucess on black bear.

With 90 gr hollowpoints it was absoultely explosive on jackrabbits. And very distructive on coyote size animals, Of course we were not shooting the jacks & coyotes for meat, but for control work.

If you just want a rifle that is ready for a supressor( and thats what this is sounding like to me) then buy the 25/06 if thats whats available, but don't ask me to tell you it's better than what you have.

You must remember americans have a different mindset. Supressors are taxed here and ownership is restricted. They are not legal for hunting many places. Since we don't know all your rules we recomend what we use here.   If you can't accept that maybe you should ask your questions on a British gun forum.

Respectfully submitted,

[moorepower]

For those long and windy shots, I would give the nod to the 25-06. Want less meat damage, use a harder bullet, Barnes, Swift...

[pastorp]

morepower, it is a wonderfull caliber for those long windy southwest high desert conditions. But even with solid bullets it is destructive on coyotes if you hit bone. Just too much velocity.
I shot a called coyote in the chest at about 125 yds one time. The solid bullet exited his hip and you could a stuck your fist in the wound. Of course at 300 yds it would a been less distructive. Point I'm making is unless you shoot long the 25/06 & the 257 weatherby just turn out too much velocity for smaller animals. 

Regards,

[Brithunter]

Thank you all for your input  and pastorp yes your correct in that the next rifle brought to replace that messed up .243 P-H will be threaded. The advice to use a correctly constructed bullet is taken on baord but was already known from using the .270 Winchester in the past. Two years I used my 59 vintage BSA Majestic in .270 to take a young Muntjac Buck using one of my last original Nosler 130 Grain Solid Base bullets. Terminal effect was very good and although I lost a little bit of meat a high shoulder shot dropped him on the spot. He weighed in at 30 lbs dressed out and was excellent eating  .

It seems that I should expect about the same from a 25-06. Now the real confusion starts as I have been doing a spot of reading this evening and it seems that even though it has a very loyal and even rabid following one might say the 25-06 does not out perform the 270 Winchester  checking Speer #13 and my old Hodgdons #26 the 270 pushes the 130 grain bullet at the same speed as the 26-06 pushes the 120 grain bullet  and that surprised me. The 25-06 does it with about 10 grains less powder though.

I shall return the .243 tomorrow afternoon and wait before getting the licence altered so we can examine the rifles on offer further. As I say I fancy bringing that 25-06 Super Clip home but I have got to try and get the best possible rifle that fits my needs complicated though they are  .

[grvj]

Brithunter...I have a friend who loves his Scottish Highland hunts and uses a 7x57. He puts on breeks and a Barbour, makes a point of stalking close range so bullet weight, range and so on are not a concern for him. His view is if he can't figure out how to get within 50-75 yards, he will pass the shot. Spending a few hours walking and crawling in the bog and slop is simply part of the game for him. He has a Blaser in 7x57 so this gives you an idea of his mindset.

Now me...I have hunted primarily hogs with 6mm Rem (Steyr) and 7x57 (Steyr and Ruger #1) and find that a flat shooting cartridge more beneficial here in California and my rangefinding skill. Hogs seem to always be on the other side of a draw and smell me coming...then run 5 miles in the other direction.

Comparing bullet weights between .270 and 25.06 I would match SD first. A 117-120g 25.06 would fly with minimal deflection (maybe...range dependent) compared to a 130g .270. For me the 25.06 is unique and neat to load so if the rifle is interesting and not a wood club, I would get mount a good fixed 6x scope on (think Leupold 6x42), put a few loads together and have fun getting to know a new long range shoot'in iron.

I have found the .257 Weatherby interesting (Euromark-lots of noise-fast-looks cool) but not the cost of factory ammo or cases, not to mention the rifle. The 25.06 is a notch under the Weatherby in fps but much lower cost to load. I like the 30.06 parent case and with it's bullet weight range, the 25.06 is a fabulous cartridge.

[Brithunter]

Hmmm so far I have hunted Scotland once and I was dissapointed, it was August and we Hunted Roe Buck and I had a 6.5x55 with me loaded with Speer 120 Grain bullets. it was the estate not Scotland which was the problem as their idea of a hunt was to drive the hill tracks in a pickup and shoot off the truck which is NOT my idea of a hunt. If I can swing it Perthshire is the plan in Febuary again after Roe with a possibilty of Fallow and do some proper stalking  .

For me the 25.06 is unique and neat to load so if the rifle is interesting and not a wood club, I would get mount a good fixed 6x scope on (think Leupold 6x42),

It's certainly not a club  in fact it's a later P-H 1200 Super so has a rounded fore end tip rather than the older angular style. The older 1200 Supers look a bit like the Weatherby's with roll over cheek piece that angled for end tip in Rose wood with a rose wood grip cap and it still has the white line spacers but it has normal chequering rather than the Skip line or "Scotch Chequering" as early P-H catalogues called it  like this 1200 Super in 7.92mm:-


This one has hoeny coloured wood as you can see and is fitted with a Lupold Vari X111 2.5-8 i Leupold QR lever rings.

 The wood is a darkish brown walnut with tiger stripes and with Parker-Hales normal deep black finish to the metal. The Guntrader website has three photos of it:-

[]=Rifle&Filter[NewMechanism][]=Bolt%20Action&Filter[Calibre][]=.25-06&Filter[Make][]=Parker%20Hale]http://www.guntrader.co.uk/GunsForSale/Detail.php?NewGunID=090807113659000&Num=0GunsTotal+1&Filter[NewType][]=Rifle&Filter[NewMechanism][]=Bolt%20Action&Filter[Calibre][]=.25-06&Filter[Make][]=Parker%20Hale
Fingers crossed they it shows up  now as for scope the choices I have are a 6x42 with European duplex reticle (heavy outer bars with a finer cross hair middle) that is currently on my Brno ZKK 601 in .308 Win. or the new 3-10x44 Simmons Master Series Pro Hunter scope which just arrived in the mail. Leupolds are too expensive here as for the same price I can get a 6x42 Schmidt & Bender the two I have I got used, the Vari X 111 on the other P-H came on a Ruger No1B I brought years ago.

Oh and in the 270 Winchester I now use 140 grain bullets  .

[squirrellluck]

And the right answer is... get the 25-06 because you don't have 1