Author Topic: Secondary lesson from Fort Hood shooting... (Read 2174 times)

no guns here · « **on:** November 10, 2009, 08:35:27 AM »

What no one has said is that this shooting PROVES without a doubt that the 9mm with ball ammunition is not a reliable man-stopper.

I believe the shooter had the little 5.7x28 and the cop had a 9mm. At least that is what was reported. The guards on our base carry ball ammo just like the troops.

So this dude walks in and pops 13 folks with 5.7 and kills them. The cop punched the guy's ticket FOUR times and not only did he not die, he is already off the ventilator. We KNOW from this report that he was hit at least ONCE in center of mass and most likely at least two out of four. A 9mm pencil hole just doesn't do the job!!!

We gotta get something else... something that starts with the number "4".

NGH

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #1 on:** November 10, 2009, 09:47:50 AM »

the "guy's " gun was less than 34% effective if killing was the issue . If stopping the guy was the goal the 9mm worked . No handgun bullet is 100% effective . Would it have been better for the officers to have had a bigger bullet that they could not shoot as well ?
One might argure that not he can be questioned .

teamnelson · « **Reply #2 on:** November 10, 2009, 10:26:43 AM »

Anyone know what the shot-to-hit ratio was? Did she fire 4, and all 4 hit? Or was she on her 3rd magazine? No disrespect at all ... shooting at someone shooting back at you is WAY different than rangework. Especially if you're wounded.

My understanding is that the officer was aiming lethal shot placement, with non-lethal results. This was not a UK response where they use a singleshot 9mm rifle and aim for the legs. Her intent was death, not questioning, and well it should be. Neutralize the threat ... until he stopped firing, she kept firing. She may have had to fire less with a .45.

ms · « **Reply #3 on:** November 10, 2009, 10:34:03 AM »

The 9mm did it's job.

teamnelson · « **Reply #4 on:** November 10, 2009, 10:44:00 AM »

Quote from: ms on November 10, 2009, 10:34:03 AM

The 9mm did it's job.

What was its job? I know the DOD rationale behind issuing sidearms, in which case it did not do its job.

Redtail1949 · « **Reply #5 on:** November 10, 2009, 10:47:16 AM »

age old argument .45 vs 9mm that has been settled in the minds of warriors that knowfor many years. the 9 just does not reliably stop or kill. the .45 does not stop 100% of the time nor kill 100% of the time. Yet those times are few and far between. the .45 is a much better close range weapon and one that most of those with their &as^ on the line want in their hand when push comes to shove. If they are given a choice most will take the .45 over the 9mm not because its hip or cool but because it works.

ms · « **Reply #6 on:** November 10, 2009, 10:47:25 AM »

Quote from: TeamNelson on November 10, 2009, 10:44:00 AM

Quote from: ms on November 10, 2009, 10:34:03 AM
The 9mm did it's job.

What was its job? I know the DOD rationale behind issuing sidearms, in which case it did not do its job.

It stop him from killing someone else.

Redtail1949 · « **Reply #7 on:** November 10, 2009, 10:52:04 AM »

anyone that confronts someone trying to kill them and decides to aim for the legs is an idiot. i am sure that the young lady was trying to kill the man and never once thought of just stopping him. thats for the movies, i will shoot him in the arm and make him drop his weapon so we can question him later. BS just never never happens they may tell the court that, but never, i repeat never, do anything but try to kill the adversary.

MGMorden · « **Reply #8 on:** November 10, 2009, 10:56:11 AM »

Quote from: TeamNelson on November 10, 2009, 10:44:00 AM

Quote from: ms on November 10, 2009, 10:34:03 AM
The 9mm did it's job.

What was its job? I know the DOD rationale behind issuing sidearms, in which case it did not do its job.

What was her shot placement? Where did she connect each time? Would a .45 or .40 hitting in the same spots produce a different outcome?

There's a lot more to proving a fact than anecdotal evidence. Too many variables in this case to draw a firm conclusion, not to mention that a single case is not a large enough sample group to form a valid statistic.

Graybeard · « **Reply #9 on:** November 10, 2009, 11:06:50 AM »

A .357 Magnum with 125 JHPs would have put him down faster and more certainly. He wouldn't still be alive had the four hits come from it. He likely would have shot fewer folks as well.

ironglow · « **Reply #10 on:** November 10, 2009, 11:06:57 AM »

I can only report what my grandson told me during his time in the Ramadi/Fallujah area as a Spec Ops Marine in 2005, cleaning out terrorist nests. He preferred his M4 or Mossberg 500 for those "close up and personal" meetings. He told me he did not find the 9mm with ball ammo to be a reliable stopper. Hollow or some other point maybe, but not fmj.
He/we are an experienced hunting/shooting family..and I know his word to be reliable.

ironglow · « **Reply #11 on:** November 10, 2009, 11:08:17 AM »

GB...ditto on the .357, esp with HP or SP rounds.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #12 on:** November 10, 2009, 11:20:54 AM »

I would guess her being a civilian police officer, she was carrying hollowpoint ammo. Maybe even +P or +P+. 115 9MM hollow points are a very good stopper on lightly clothed oponents.

teamnelson · « **Reply #13 on:** November 10, 2009, 11:40:24 AM »

Quote from: billy_56081 on November 10, 2009, 11:20:54 AM

I would guess her being a civilian police officer, she was carrying hollowpoint ammo. Maybe even +P or +P+. 115 9MM hollow points are a very good stopper on lightly clothed oponents.

If she was she was out of regs. They are required to carry issue ball just like the rest, due to contracting and safety requirements.

GB, amen.

myronman3 · « **Reply #14 on:** November 10, 2009, 11:42:32 AM »

forget the caliber debate. what everyone should be screaming about is that our SOLDIERS are unarmed. we have the best, yet they can not be trusted with a gun? this is yet another of many reasons that pushed me from the service. more than willing to send me into hell to do the dirtywork; but wont back me up and will not trust me with a gun in my home country.
my advice to each and every soldier, marine, airmen, and sailor out there is to complete your obligation and get the hell out and do not re-enlist. this country does not deserve your service.

LONGTOM · « **Reply #15 on:** November 10, 2009, 11:50:10 AM »

If I have to shoot, then I want the biggest slug I can handle.
If the 45 is to much for some to handle then a 12ga will do the job.
3" #4 buck-1 shot and he would be down, done deal!!!

I would never shoot to wound.
If they are dead they can't testify against you.

LONGTOM

teamnelson · « **Reply #16 on:** November 10, 2009, 11:52:55 AM »

Quote from: myronman3 on November 10, 2009, 11:42:32 AM

forget the caliber debate. what everyone should be screaming about is that our SOLDIERS are unarmed. we have the best, yet they can not be trusted with a gun? this is yet another of many reasons that pushed me from the service. more than willing to send me into hell to do the dirtywork; but wont back me up and will not trust me with a gun in my home country.
my advice to each and every soldier, marine, airmen, and sailor out there is to complete your obligation and get the hell out and do not re-enlist. this country does not deserve your service.

While I can empathize with that sentiment, the other option would be for y'all to give us back a country worth serving. Lots of us have it in the blood bad ... without a country to serve, I don't know what else I'd do.

Amen on the gun issue. Can't for the life of me figure out how we can be trusted to carry fully automatic weapons into large civilian populations where the bad guys look like good guys ... but we can't be trusted to carry at home.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #17 on:** November 10, 2009, 12:00:18 PM »

TeamNelson are civilian police now policing the military bases? Or did she respond from off post? I'm sure things have changed in 18 years but all we had were MP's.

Redtail1949 · « **Reply #18 on:** November 10, 2009, 01:58:14 PM »

i understand she was a contract policeman to assist the on base mp forces. they do not let us have wepons on base in Us just to help keep something like that from happening. just think what hassan could have done with a saw or m4 with a bunch of mags.

the mps and other forces on base should have been designated to act in the type of incident but only on base. our laws require the police not be military except on military installations.

teamnelson · « **Reply #19 on:** November 10, 2009, 04:41:12 PM »

Quote from: billy_56081 on November 10, 2009, 12:00:18 PM

TeamNelson are civilian police now policing the military bases? Or did she respond from off post? I'm sure things have changed in 18 years but all we had were MP's.

because of the need for mps forward, on base police are civilianized at large commands. I work on a small base with unique requirements so were still MP policed, but that's changing soon.

Oldshooter · « **Reply #20 on:** November 10, 2009, 05:01:26 PM »

The 57 explains why he was shooting so much. mine came with 2 20 round magazines.

From what i heard she hit him and ran around a corner and he followed her and shot her again! Does anyone know more?

Anyone remember when the fbi quit carring 9's. It seems they were in a gun fight with bank robbers in Fla. and they were up against mini 14's. tehy would hit the perps and the perps would kill em with the 223

I'd bet the move to 9 mm by the military was a payday for somebody! never understood that!

teamnelson · « **Reply #21 on:** November 10, 2009, 05:23:26 PM »

Jobs for the beretta USA factory, that's all. Springfield wasn't cheap enough.

BBF · « **Reply #22 on:** November 10, 2009, 07:13:32 PM »

Quote from: myronman3 on November 10, 2009, 11:42:32 AM

my advice to each and every soldier, marine, airmen, and sailor out there is to complete your obligation and get the hell out and do not re-enlist. this country does not deserve your service.

Sadly I agree totally with this, add the "Coffee Bean in the WH" remarks and dissapointment that the soldiers weren't happy to pay for their own wounded, I would not dream to sign up .

BTW Active service in the military should be a requirement for any potential seeker of the WH IMO

ironglow · « **Reply #23 on:** November 11, 2009, 12:56:33 AM »

While I can understand Myron's disgust, since I feel it as well, I do agree with TN ..let's take the country back. I also tend to agree with BBF..prior service, preferrably as EM would be a great pre-requisite for the presidency, not much chance of that happening though...

gypsyman · « **Reply #24 on:** November 11, 2009, 01:37:10 AM »

My understanding is, they went to the 9mm because of NATO. Plus the extra capacity. gypsyman

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #25 on:** November 11, 2009, 02:11:11 AM »

weight also was stated as a reason . I would guess cost may enter into it also . Can someone in the know tell us - has the 9mm not been using hollow point bullets "to enhance accuracy " for some time now ? I read somewhere that was the case . Seems if HP's are used to enhance accy. and not to kill better it was OK . The rifle bullet was getting HP bullets also . It would be interesting to know it it is so.
We can amuse our selves with debate all we want GB stated what the facts show the 357mag is king as far as recorded results go and every thing else is less . But what none has even hinted at is if this coward was on drugs ? Had he or others brainwashed him into some frenzy or such ? Did/does he have a chemical imblance ? mental disorder ? if any of these things were the case no bullet may have been effective unless it took out the brain or spinial cord and caused instant death . In which case it is a matter of marksmanship . I have read that on average police hit one out of 7 shots . Not bad when being shot at really .
No where have i heard if she had to wait or move to miss soilders when she fired , was he moving etc .
The lady held her own and won with what she had , if the other policeman helped he also is a hero .

powderman · « **Reply #26 on:** November 11, 2009, 02:22:19 AM »

Several yrs ago a BG was stopped and shot as he fired at officers, they were armed with wonder 9s and jhp win ammo. He took 28 hits before going down. The one that put him down was a shot in the knee cap. He had 8 hits in the chest area, yet lived for several hours. POWDERMAN.

BBF · « **Reply #27 on:** November 11, 2009, 07:12:27 AM »

They had to mess with it and just had to fix something that wasn't broke. The 45 ACP worked for years with hardball and still works today. So you had only 7 in the mag but you only need one to do the job.

teamnelson · « **Reply #28 on:** November 11, 2009, 07:27:13 AM »

Cost was the reason; weight, capacity were justifications. HP is unauthorized.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #29 on:** November 11, 2009, 07:58:21 AM »

TM then what was the article about ? you hear anything ?