Author Topic: Secondary lesson from Fort Hood shooting... (Read 2194 times)

myronman3 · « **Reply #30 on:** November 11, 2009, 10:35:15 AM »

this country has had h.u.a. syndrome concerning it's soldiers as long as i can remember. when i was growing up, veteran's were my heros and especially those who served in vietnam.
i had a very rude awakening at the way soldiers are treated concerning firearms by the military. i will be good and damned if i subject myself to that kind of treatment ever again. let the whole system fail, push the reset button cause i am sick of all of it already which is why i dont post much anymore.
it has always burned me that the great citizens go off to serve, while the know-nothing cowards stay home and live the good life. you all should meet my ex father in law; he is a prime example. if it were up to me, i would just as soon shoot him in the belly and watch him wrestle himself to death. i actually caught him telling my oldest son that the guys serving now havent seen anything, and are not heros. all this from a draft dodging p.o.s. who was no-where to be found when it was his turn, but has all the answers now.
these are the touchy feely morons who push this cant-trust-ya-with-a-gun crap on us. and look what happens.
i mean it. this country as it is; is NOT worth a patriots blood. get out, save your bacon for the day when the fight you are in will be worth it. these morons will not hesitate to send you to your doom while they stay home and take your girl and brainwash your children. sit back and wait for the right time.

Redtail1949 · « **Reply #31 on:** November 11, 2009, 11:57:05 AM »

my understanding is.... the real logical desire to unify all nato forces to a standard in weapons and ammunition. yes all the reasons of justification such as the amount of ammo one could carry and weight of weapons and yes even recoil. all valid points to consider yet when the practical application came of the best drawings and plans on paper came to pass their theory fell apart. the 5.56 or .223 was really designed for varmits (remember the classic.222) Prarie dogs and Coyote on the top end. yes any weapon will kill a human with the right placement but in practical application in combat it proved over and over again it was too light. so the when to heavier longer bullets with faster twist rates to give it a little more oomph. still it just does not cut it. the same with the nine in pistol caliber, it has killed millions of men i would imagine yet it is still to light to dependably and with regularity kill or stop a man. they made a mistake and could correct it but i doubt they will, the top brass never retreats from a decision they make regarding equipment. for a sidearm give me the .45 and i will agree the .12 guage shotgun in pump or even auto beats them all hands down in close quarters.

Redtail1949 · « **Reply #32 on:** November 11, 2009, 11:59:34 AM »

i heard at first she was part of a civilian policeman working under contract for some security outfit that the military hired. they have not ever said a company name as of yet that i have heard.

teamnelson · « **Reply #33 on:** November 11, 2009, 02:05:40 PM »

She's most likely a DOA civilian; if you write to Ft Hood's base command they'll connect you.

BIGDAVE54 · « **Reply #34 on:** November 11, 2009, 03:13:49 PM »

I served 5 years in the US Air Force as a law enforcement/security specialist for the first 3 years and 6 months. I extended for one year when I married a young blue eyed,blonde haired medic(I will add since the military has changed ...SHE IS A WOMAN TOO...hehehe)..Anyway.I went to the personel office after I was married and asked to crosstrain into a field I could use when I got out like a mechanic or plumber....Sure the old sarge said..Sign here for an extra year..We'll make you a mechanic. I was sent to New Mexico and trained to be a rocket sled mechanic...There is only one in the whole country. I asked about the lil town I was going to be stationed at and was told the US spent about a million bucks in the 1940s to find the most desolate place in the country to fire the first atomic bomb. They set it off in Alamogordo,NM....that was where I was stationed.
Anyway during war the security and L.E. troops are sent to the war zones and civilians are contracted to man some of the posts such as main gates,armories,desk sgts.and radio dispatchers. At one of my old bases(Sheppard AFB in Wichita Falls ,Texas )one of the civilian gate guards just busted a contractor for trying to bring a couple of dozen illegal Mexicans on the base to do construction work. There is an Air Force base in Tenn...Arnold AFB,and engineering center where all of the base patrolmen are civilians and it is mandatory that they are also deputy sheriffs for Coffee county Sheriffs Department too. They are forced to use government issue firearms with standard military ball ammo as far as I know. Most are required to graduate from the military police acadamy too. One thing I thought was weird was I was 17 years old when I went in to the USAF. I was required to be armed with a S&W model 15 Combat Masterpiece(38Spl.) every day and many days was issued a m-16(Armalite)or 12 gauge Remington pump shotgun. I had to turn my weapons into the armory at the end of the shift and could not go to town and buy orr own a firearm legally.....BTW...since I got out of the military I have worked full and part time between layoffs at my electricians job as an armed guard. I carry a FNP 45 acp now.The one guard company I worked for that issued their own weapons to us required that we carried their Taurus .357 Magnum revolvers.In my security career I have guarded everything from nuclear warheads to 57 strippers at a mens club.

torpedoman · « **Reply #35 on:** November 11, 2009, 05:23:57 PM »

Amazing we won WW2 with a 30-06 rifle and a 45 cal pistol and since then we have been going to smaller and smaller calibers. Now we field an army with weapons that many states will not allow you to hunt deer with. Iwas escorting nukes when they took my 45 and gave me a 9mm and NO you cant use your own weapon.

powderman · « **Reply #36 on:** November 11, 2009, 11:13:40 PM »

I remember Elmer Keith talking about failures around the world of the 9mm. He said, God help us if our military should ever be forced to adopt such a weapon. POWDERMAN.

Oldshooter · « **Reply #37 on:** November 12, 2009, 02:26:20 PM »

Well you guys that kling to your god and your guns just dont understand that in this age of kinder, gentler, more, understanding times . We cant be killin our enemies/terrorist with bullets that are effective we just wanna wing em then support em for the rest of their dam lives!

GRIMJIM · « **Reply #38 on:** November 13, 2009, 01:25:38 AM »

Our beloved mayor Daley (extremely sarcastic) said that the shootings happened because of our country's lax gun laws. What a complete moron he is.

powderman · « **Reply #39 on:** November 13, 2009, 02:20:13 PM »

The shootings happened because our SOLDIERS were denied their right to self defense. POWDERMAN.

Oldshooter · « **Reply #40 on:** November 13, 2009, 03:17:10 PM »

I repeat my old adage that a gun free zone is a free fire or moving target zone!

LONGTOM · « **Reply #41 on:** November 13, 2009, 05:23:30 PM »

Quote

The shootings happened because our SOLDIERS were denied their right to self defense.

Maybe.
I think the real reason was that IIRC the FBI was watching him because of his connection to an overseas terrorists origination.
If that is the case and they knew about him then he should have been removed long before he was sent to FORT HOOD!
Just like our government, they have to study everything long before they take action.
In the mean time innocent people are harmed needlessly while they take a wait and see approach.

LONGTOM

williamlayton · « **Reply #42 on:** November 14, 2009, 08:09:33 PM »

Military don't use HP's.
This is a military Base.
Last I determined-they had not decided who shot him---the was another policeman who said he shot him---probably with a 9mm also.
Blessings

Mohawk · « **Reply #43 on:** November 14, 2009, 09:05:45 PM »

Please remember that LEO's are trained to dump rounds into a threat repeatedly until down. Meaning, if a subject fell after four rounds, the subject was potentially falling after the first shot. How many rounds can you dump into a target in, say......3 seconds? Reports of shooting are just that, reports.

Oldshooter · « **Reply #44 on:** November 15, 2009, 02:15:15 AM »

I'll buy that Mohawk, But i guess I would prefer to shoot a bad guy with a bullet that would stop him rather than one that will eventually kill him or put him down. Seems that this Perp, shot a bunch before he "knew" he was down. And once or twice is way too much for my taste! Now granted, I'm not a trained professional. I've never been in a fire fight( hope I never am) but the 9 mm isnt a bullet that i would want to take into one if i had my choice.

williamlayton · « **Reply #45 on:** November 15, 2009, 03:55:42 AM »

These are not off duty police officers working a second job. This is a civilian outfit contracted out to provide base security.
It is just another example of outsourceing becaue there are not enough in the military to fill all the needs.
Blessings

williamlayton · « **Reply #46 on:** November 15, 2009, 03:58:34 AM »

If hollow points are not allowed---and they arn't, will never be, can't be---the .45 hardball is the only answer.
Blessings

Oldshooter · « **Reply #47 on:** November 15, 2009, 04:04:35 AM »

Quote from: williamlayton on November 15, 2009, 03:58:34 AM

If hollow points are not allowed---and they arn't, will never be, can't be---the .45 hardball is the only answer.
Blessings

+1, Especially since nothing else would ever be accepted or approved

myronman3 · « **Reply #48 on:** November 15, 2009, 04:24:12 AM »

Quote from: powderman on November 13, 2009, 02:20:13 PM

The shootings happened because our SOLDIERS were denied their right to self defense. POWDERMAN.

now you are focused on the REAL problem here. until this stuff changes, with the military and with other "gun free zones", expect to hear more stories like this. i always ask people who lean toward the "evil guns" mentality, why do you never hear of someone trying this stuff at a police station or at a gun range? answer is obvious....because there are people with guns there that will shoot back! even the most h.u.a. lefty will realize that, whether they admit it or not is another story.

Oldshooter · « **Reply #49 on:** November 15, 2009, 04:57:47 AM »

Yep the PC disease has even infected the military!

"you can't carry a weapon around because we dont trust you, we just want you to bleed and die for what is important to us politically"!

Face it folks, We have let the pacifist left take control of this country! They teach our children, they make laws that restrict our liberty, but make them feel good, And take the teeth out of our military. Which explains why a Muslim Psychiatrist is in the military!

williamlayton · « **Reply #50 on:** November 15, 2009, 10:03:40 AM »

Has anyone ever been on a military base in the U. S. ?
Has anyone ever been in a military base in a foreign nation---even in war?
Blessings

blackpowderbill · « **Reply #51 on:** November 15, 2009, 10:18:28 AM »

About the "shooting to kill" debate; I have worked Navy Le and civilian LE. I currently work in corporate security for a major utility. In every place we are taught to shoot center of mass. Two reasons; one, it gives us the greatest chance of a solid hit (biggest target) and secondly, CM also happens to be where most of the vital machinery is for a rapid cesation of hostilities. We shoot to stop the action that has required us to shoot in the first place, whether he, she or it, lives or dies is not an issue at that point in time.

Oldshooter · « **Reply #52 on:** November 15, 2009, 10:30:19 AM »

Quote from: blackpowderbill on November 15, 2009, 10:18:28 AM

About the "shooting to kill" debate; I have worked Navy Le and civilian LE. I currently work in corporate security for a major utility. In every place we are taught to shoot center of mass. Two reasons; one, it gives us the greatest chance of a solid hit (biggest target) and secondly, CM also happens to be where most of the vital machinery is for a rapid cesation of hostilities. We shoot to stop the action that has required us to shoot in the first place, whether he, she or it, lives or dies is not an issue at that point in time.

Thats exactly how it was presented in the CC class I took. But that is just a cya thing aint it. You dont shoot to kill but you shoot at center mass which is where the boiler room is. But if the shootee dies well too bad for him. In this case wudda been better.

ironglow · « **Reply #53 on:** November 15, 2009, 10:32:28 AM »

from their experiences in Iraq, all branches are working on this:

http://defensetech.org/2007/04/18/exclusive-air-force-revives-45-cal-handgun/

BBF · « **Reply #54 on:** November 15, 2009, 12:24:21 PM »

Quote from: williamlayton on November 15, 2009, 10:03:40 AM

Has anyone ever been on a military base in the U. S. ?
Has anyone ever been in a military base in a foreign nation---even in war?

Yes to the first two, however not during wartime.

williamlayton · « **Reply #55 on:** November 15, 2009, 12:35:40 PM »

Folks don't walk around armed.
Stuff happens/has/and will again---in a nano.
Weapons are issued and they are told when to hump em and when not too.
Always have been and always will be.
Blessings

BBF · « **Reply #56 on:** November 15, 2009, 01:04:25 PM »

Walking on Guard Duty in W. Germany with a M-1 and later the M-14 without even one lousy round of ammo just didn't sit well with me. So I had a loaded 25 cal auto under my field jacket. At least it would go BANG if it accomplished nothing else.

ironglow · « **Reply #57 on:** November 15, 2009, 03:27:57 PM »

  BBF;
  Were you with the Canadian Air Force? There were some near where I was stationed in W.Germany.
  When I served in Germany, I was "ED"..excused from duty..extra duties, that is. The only extra duty I pulled was "prison chase" for malefactors from our own unit. That was a good psychological move though, since myself and the other highest scoring rifle shooter in the company did this duty, and everyone knew who the top shots were. We had live ammo...as did the guys guarding missle sites.

blackpowderbill · « **Reply #58 on:** November 16, 2009, 06:34:47 AM »

I remember planty of watches spent with an M14 and no ammo. Even after 9-11 when we were finally allowed to enter a port. We were in Giata Italy (USS Grapple), I looked at the Gator freighter across the harbour through the big eyes and saw two men on security patrol. A Marine and a Sailor. The Marine was in BDUs with all his kit, including an M16 rifle with a mag in the well. I don't know if there was ammo in the thing or not but it looked good. The Sailor was another animal entirely. He was in service dress whites with an M14, bolt locked back and no mag.He had no garrison belt on, thus no ammo on his person; just a target. By the time I retired we (Navy) had come a long way and were carrying our M9s loaded and ready to fight.

Redtail1949 · « **Reply #59 on:** November 16, 2009, 06:48:51 AM »

had a good friend killed on the 38th in korea he was in an observation post when fired upon by the north koreans. his unload rifle was of no use and the fact was he was searched before he took his post to insure that he had no loaded rounds or mags on his person. the reason given was that they wanted no incidents to occur that might start a major clash.

his family found little comfort in the knowledge that on many fronts our soldiers were carring unloaded weapons to guard the DMZ and also areas in germany.