Author Topic: photo enforcement ticket!!! (Read 2650 times)

Casull · « **Reply #30 on:** September 11, 2009, 04:18:25 PM »

Have to agree with Mohawk on this one. Speeding is a matter of public safety. And usually the one's that complain the loudest and speed the most have the most accidents to show for it. Like so many other areas of life today, some people just think they are too damn important to follow the rules.

BrianB · « **Reply #31 on:** September 11, 2009, 05:11:17 PM »

Photo enforcement was banned in Jackson and I think all of Mississippi because of a lack of due process. I'm surprised it hasn't been banned elsewhere, or maybe it has.

Casull · « **Reply #32 on:** September 11, 2009, 05:21:54 PM »

What lack of due process? You can go to court to dispute those tickets just like any other.

Skunk · « **Reply #33 on:** September 12, 2009, 05:40:01 AM »

Quote from: Mohawk on September 11, 2009, 12:17:40 PM

Don't speed and the problem goes away.

Yeah!

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Hooker · « **Reply #34 on:** September 12, 2009, 06:12:42 AM »

Quote from: Casull on September 11, 2009, 04:18:25 PM

Have to agree with Mohawk on this one. Speeding is a matter of public safety. And usually the one's that complain the loudest and speed the most have the most accidents to show for it. Like so many other areas of life today, some people just think they are too damn important to follow the rules.

This is the same argument the anti gun crowd uses against us. Speed laws in most cases are for generation of revenue and have nothing to do with public safety. In school zones, work zones areas of heavy traffic driving fast in these places posses an immediate threat and should be considered an public safety issue.

Mohawk I have no tolerance for drunks behind the wheel a drunk driver is no different than an idiot running around with a gun shooting where he pleases, But DWI laws throw to wide of a loop and you may have broken one of them laws already. For instance say your sitting around with your buds drinking a few beers to many to be driving but you are at home have no intentions of going any where. You go out to the truck to get something to show the boys. You have the keys and you are with the vehicle. You have just broken the law APC Actual Physical Control if there is a firearm in your vehicle it's a felony.
Almost every one of us break so many laws every year that the fines would add up to more than we make, and we could spend the rest of our lives in prison. So let's keep right on supporting this ever expanding system and the extortionists that force it on us after all it's the rules.

Pat

Mohawk · « **Reply #35 on:** September 12, 2009, 06:44:48 AM »

So you are against a law that keeps drunk people away from firearms and keys to a vehicle? Sounds like a pretty good public safety statute to me.

Casull · « **Reply #36 on:** September 12, 2009, 07:10:37 AM »

Quote

Speed laws in most cases are for generation of revenue and have nothing to do with public safety.

You make this claim based on what? Do you disagree with the laws of physics? A crash at 95 mph is going to cause more damage than the same accident at 65 mph. Should people be able to drive at 140 mph on the highway? If not, then at what speed? Whatever that speed is in your mind, then it is a speed limit. And, people like yourself will go over that limit, no matter what it is set at. As for speeds on roads other than open highways, these are going to be areas where people are (residential areas, school zones, commercial areas). So, you can think whatever you want, but it won't change the fact that speed laws ARE public safety matters.

Empty Quiver · « **Reply #37 on:** September 12, 2009, 07:39:18 AM »

Revenue enhancement pure and simple. When the officer pulls you over he has slowed you down and created a teaching moment. The camera can only record 1/125 sec in time. In that 1/125 sec a kid with a little ingenuity can replace his plates with a photoshopped copy and create all sorts of problems. Piss off that punk and you walk to work for a year. Prove it wasn't you," hey it's your car look at the tags".

If it is worth doing it is worth doing correctly. How 'bout they just have the building inspectors take a few pictures of the new bridge and collect the cash and approve the project. A few photo's of the effluent discharge outta the local sewage plant, "hey that looks clean to me". How about this idea terminate all police officers replace them with cameras and photo lab employees and Fed Ex drivers. Better yet just debit their bank account, no court date at all, and avoid all the high priced legal system. Prison sentences could be based on photo quality, blurry out of focus ten yrs, clean image and a smile on your face (enjoying your work) well sorry that nets you twenty in the joint.

If the city needs another 700k to meet the budget for cripes sake, man up and say it. " We can't stick to a budget, times are tight and you gotta pay up suckas'". Instead it's a wormy work around of camera enforcement. Employ a few more cops, at least they offer something to the community while earning that check.

I'm not really that big of a fan of the cameras.

Mohawk · « **Reply #38 on:** September 12, 2009, 07:58:41 AM »

It is about safety not "revenue" generation. Only speeders say its for revenue. If they wanted to generate revenue they would just cite every driver for the smallest infraction such as not signaling, touching yellow line, and every mechanical defect under the sun, as all carry fines. A normal sober person with excellent driving skills would be hard pressed to not inadvertently violate a traffic law within a two mile period, because there are so many traffic laws. But if law enforcement wanted to, they could. If a person does not want to be a part of the "revenue" agenda, as they say, then slow down and don't speed. And persons should be careful in "modifying" their license plates. They are a government record and carry felony penalties for changing them. There is a case on Youtube from news broadcast where a guy changed his license plate numbers, a 3 into an 8. He now faces felony charges and prison time.

Hooker · « **Reply #39 on:** September 12, 2009, 08:00:55 AM »

No I am against laws that punish people for what ifs. One would think that pro gun people would understand this concept.
You sound just like the anti gun crowd they take the very worst scenario and paint everyone with the same brush.
Your argument suggest that we are all idiots incapable of limiting actions and we need government to regulate us.

Pat

Casull · « **Reply #40 on:** September 12, 2009, 08:15:40 AM »

Quote

No I am against laws that punish people for what ifs. One would think that pro gun people would understand this concept.
You sound just like the anti gun crowd they take the very worst scenario and paint everyone with the same brush.
Your argument suggest that we are all idiots incapable of limiting actions and we need government to regulate us.

Not punishing anyone for "what ifs". No more so than laws saying you can't shoot guns in town. Clearly, a speed limit on a public highway is something that falls within the common good. Unless of course, you somehow think there is a Constitutional right to drive as fast as you want on a public highway (since you want to somehow paint this as similar to an attack on the 2nd Amendment).

billy_56081 · « **Reply #41 on:** September 12, 2009, 08:26:21 AM »

Mohawk, should a person be punished if someone else speeds with their car? I cannot imagine a judge or jury not throwing out a ticket if they can't prove who was in physical control of a vehicle.

Casull · « **Reply #42 on:** September 12, 2009, 08:32:17 AM »

Billy, have you ever heard of someone being fined for speeding when they weren't driving the car? I doubt it. That's why those cameras take pictures of the plate AND the driver.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #43 on:** September 12, 2009, 08:35:25 AM »

I have been wondering, I guess a guy needs to see the pic.

Casull · « **Reply #44 on:** September 12, 2009, 08:35:55 AM »

Quote

The camera can only record 1/125 sec in time. In that 1/125 sec a kid with a little ingenuity can replace his plates with a photoshopped copy and create all sorts of problems. Piss off that punk and you walk to work for a year. Prove it wasn't you," hey it's your car look at the tags".

BS!!!! Unless that "punk" has photoshopped your car over his (same make, model and year), and photoshopped your face over his, that's not going to happen. Come on, use a little common sense and don't rely on anectdotal stories.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #45 on:** September 12, 2009, 08:38:24 AM »

Quote from: Casull on September 12, 2009, 08:32:17 AM

Billy, have you ever heard of someone being fined for speeding when they weren't driving the car? I doubt it. That's why those cameras take pictures of the plate AND the driver.

And yes there have been several cases of the owners being ticketed when someone else was driving the car. When a ticket is sent out how do they know the driver is the person in the picture? Do they have some super computer with facial recognision software and a data base of all drivers photos?

http://www.sfexaminer.com/local/crime/59075642.html

Casull · « **Reply #46 on:** September 12, 2009, 08:41:44 AM »

Quote

And yes there have been several cases of the owners being ticketed when someone else was driving the car. When a ticket is sent out how do they know the driver is the person in the picture? Do they have some super computer with facial recognision software and a data base of all drivers photos?

Of course that can happen, but the judge will throw that ticket out. Also, you didn't answer my question. I asked if you knew of someone being "fined" for speeding when not driving the car, not whether they had been mailed a ticket.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #47 on:** September 12, 2009, 08:52:01 AM »

As I said there have been thousands and thousands of photo speed tickets when they were not driving the vehicle. I guarentee some have been paid. Many do not have the time to show up in court to prove themselves innocent. Innocent until proven guilty. Oh wait in Obamerica that is an outdated concept that the clingers hold on to.

Casull · « **Reply #48 on:** September 12, 2009, 09:03:55 AM »

Billy, don't confuse me with someone that has any respect for BO. Believe me, I tend to agree with your posts more often than not. But, nobody said life was easy. Yes, it is innocent until proven guilty, but that doesn't mean you don't have to even show up to answer the charge. There are plenty of laws that I have a problem with, but speeding laws are not really one of them (they actually make sense, even if I wish the limits were higher for me).

billy_56081 · « **Reply #49 on:** September 12, 2009, 09:10:13 AM »

Heres another link for you all.

http://www.highwayrobbery.net/index.htm

Hooker · « **Reply #50 on:** September 12, 2009, 09:13:02 AM »

Quote from: Casull on September 12, 2009, 08:15:40 AM

Quote

Not punishing anyone for "what ifs". No more so than laws saying you can't shoot guns in town. Clearly, a speed limit on a public highway is something that falls within the common good. Unless of course, you somehow think there is a Constitutional right to drive as fast as you want on a public highway (since you want to somehow paint this as similar to an attack on the 2nd Amendment).

No the only Constitutional infraction in the realm of traffic laws is when the government pretends to grant privilege.
Common good is a virtuous concept and should be used by all individuals. However when it is enforced by government it is called socialism.
When the government forces you to pay money it is called a tax and taxes are revenue.

For those who keep making reference about "The ones who complain are the speeders who got ticketed". I've only had 2 tickets in my life I was in my teens one for speeding one for improper exhaust.
I've probably seen the results excessive speed , drunk drivers, careless drivers, preoccupied drivers ... more than most folks. I've cleaned up enough carnage. body parts, blood and dead babies to freak out Stephen King. I know for a fact you can't slow it down and you dang sure can't stop it. Speed never caused a wreck and a traffic fine never saved a life.

Pat

billy_56081 · « **Reply #51 on:** September 12, 2009, 09:20:16 AM »

And I'll tell ya what, I am complaining about these photo tickets and I am not a speeder. I would bet I drive more miles a week that 90 % of all members here. I don't speed, heck I get paid by the hour and have a company vehicle. I just don't like the idea of people being ticketed when they were not driving the car. I tell ya what I hate speeders, I think they are a threat to me and mines lives. But falsley accusing people of speedingis wrong, wrong, wrong. And ya know what it might just violate the 14thammendment.

Empty Quiver · « **Reply #52 on:** September 12, 2009, 09:44:42 AM »

You haven't addressed the issue of an officer citing you in person. Is that speed camera going to get an impaired driver off the road? I'm calling BS on freeing up an officer to do more work. If the job is worth doing it is worth doing correctly.

There is more than enough anecdotal evidence to argue that these cameras are in fact used in a manner that crosses the line of entrapment. Were this not so I believe you would find thousands upon thousands of them in use. As it stands now most jurisdictions will not use them, several states will not permit their use. If it were so cut and dried an issue as "don't speed" this would not be the policy of those states. Redlight cameras have been proven to INCREASE rear end collisions at the intersection where they have been installed. When it has been mandated that yellow light times be increased by a small amount, the number of citations were reduced to the point it was no longer economically feasable for the companies to leave the cameras in place.

At some point in ones life they finally understand the difference between " the man just keeping a brother down" and speeding is a good way to kill somebody's child. It hit me about twenty years ago watching kids play and knowing my kids don't pay any attention to cars they assume all cars are incapable of running them over because in there experience that is true. An officer if he chooses can point this out in a time and place that really can teach a lesson. Therein lies the difference between law enforcement and a peace officer. Correction or punishment some folks are not going to connect the dots from a ticket for speeding because it honestly isn't prudent to drive that fast and gotta slow down up here cause they have a speed camera. It's maturity some get it early some don't but generally it is something that is taught.

Please don't confuse my post as pro lawlessness. I would venture to say I use the highway system more than most. I respect what our police officers do, and I also feel that they can not and should not be replaced by a camera.

When will it be OK to put cameras on your recycling bin? Laugh it up. This is the kind of thing that creeps into your lives one absudity at a time.

I'm not really that big of a fan of the cameras.

Mohawk · « **Reply #53 on:** September 12, 2009, 12:47:07 PM »

Comparing speeding to the 2nd Amendment is laughable. I don't get it. Just drive the speed limit. If you can't do that then any excuse is just that, an excuse. If someone has to slow "way down" at a camera then they were speeding!!!!! This does not make the camera unsafe it makes the driver unsafe. If they were driving the limit then the need to slow down would not exist. I've seen enough dead children, and their families, in the morgue to know that speeding causes accidents!!! No alcohol involved. When someone is doing 65 in a 65, no problem, until someone behind them is doing 85. Difference in speed causes disaster. The feeling of "Immortality" of some people is amazing...... Some folks will never conform to any type of law or rule regardless of who it affects. It's almost hilarious when they blame "The Government" for them not being able to do whatever they want to do at any time. My 7 year old already knows right from wrong. Too bad some people never learn.

BrianB · « **Reply #54 on:** September 12, 2009, 12:50:58 PM »

Quote from: Casull on September 11, 2009, 05:21:54 PM

What lack of due process? You can go to court to dispute those tickets just like any other.

The citations here were issued only by photos taken of the back of the car, not of the driver. A co-worker was driving his father's car and his father was issued a citation. I clearly think there is a problem with that. I'm sure the judge will let everyone off the hook who walks in and says "Hey, I wasn't the driver."

Casull · « **Reply #55 on:** September 12, 2009, 01:16:25 PM »

Quote

The citations here were issued only by photos taken of the back of the car, not of the driver. A co-worker was driving his father's car and his father was issued a citation. I clearly think there is a problem with that. I'm sure the judge will let everyone off the hook who walks in and says "Hey, I wasn't the driver."

First of all, don't believe every story you hear from a co-worker (or anyone else for that matter). And, yes a judge will throw that out (or be subject to an appeal) if the state cannot prove its case (which would be impossible without a witness or a picture of the driver). Finally, you DO have the right to demand a jury trial if you don't believe that a judge can be impartial. Come on people, we are talking about a camera (which doesn't lie like so many claim the police do). I'll bet that if a camera snapped a picture of the guy raping your daughter you wouldn't have a problem in the state using that against him. If you get caught, you get caught. I don't care if it's a leo or a camera, the important thing is that you were breaking the law. If there's a problem with the setup and it's not legit, that is a different matter (same as if the leo was lying).

BlkHawk73 · « **Reply #56 on:** September 13, 2009, 04:52:04 AM »

Quote from: DALESCARPENTRY on September 09, 2009, 02:51:07 PM

Were you speeding? I work 70 miles from my house and I also speed sometimes to get to work on time. If I get get caught I deserve it because I know I was speeding. I try not to go over 10 mph over the posted speed limit though. Other wise you really risk high fines and posibably court. So if you were speeding yes you deserve your ticket. Dale

I agree completely - kudos to you for accepting the concequences. If one can't accept the penalty, don't act above the law. Sadly people now are too irresponsable and take to acceptance of their wrong doing. it's always an excuse or someone else's fault. Everyone preaches about teaching owning up to one's mistakes and such to the kids yet then turn around and hide from their own punishment. Nothing like good ole American hypocrisy huh?

Empty Quiver · « **Reply #57 on:** September 13, 2009, 07:06:37 AM »

Another analogy to help illustrate my point. This is zero tolerance for the street, taken right out of a middle school near you. Sorry Jr. that plastic Army man is carrying a gun you will have to be expelled from school for three days, well I don't care that your drill team rifle is nothing but a 2x4 with a pvc pipe glued to it, or that it was in the trunk of your car, Jr.ROTC to bad so sad, three days expulsion. Cut that red light .0002 seconds late to bad so sad lose your license for 12 months for failure to obey a traffic control device.

You have failed to grasp the point that a police officer is able to issue a ticket "in context". If the radar camera is set to capture at 7 mph over is 7.0002 mph over really an issue? Why not .0002 over the limit? Well yes, that is harsh, how about 1.0002 over the limit. The limit was set according to some formula developed by hwy safety engineers who were then ignored and it was a political decision to set the limit where it stands. The sign that tells you when to change speeds, well that was planted at a point where if you apply your brakes sufficiently you won't get a ticket but may well spill the coffee.

Applying digital solutions to an analog situation is not always the proper solution. I operate a semi in a eight state area, suffice to say if your town has a Walmart, Target, Kmart, or chain convience store I have been in it in the last fourteen yrs. You see ALL sorts of traffic situations involving speed limits, stop lights, lane change protocals. The depth and breadth of p*ss poor driving is not lost on me. I'm not spending 10 hrs on the interstate a day, my average trip speed is typically 43 mph that is on a trip through Mn, ND, and into Mt. as well as trips through Mo, Mi, and Wi. I have recieved one citation for speed and zero other citations while operating that truck and two accidents involving light fixtures in sixteen yrs. I am careful and lucky.

The chances of my getting gigged by one of these cameras is nill. I will repeat myself though, if the work is worth doing it is worth doing right. Hire another officer.

I am not really that big of a fan of the cameras.

Sourdough · « **Reply #58 on:** September 13, 2009, 07:51:29 AM »

I got a ticket in Washington DC. It was not my truck, and not me driving. Right numbers, wrong state. I tried to get it straightened out with the traffic desk, all the young lady kept saying is "We want our money". She refused to listen to me saying "We want our money". I took it to court and it was given a date for trial. I left the area before the court date, taking my truck with me returning to Alaska.

The District of Columbia came out and was going to confiscate the wife's van in leau of my truck for the unpaid fine. She paid it.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #59 on:** September 13, 2009, 07:57:24 AM »

Casull, there we have a member here who just said a fine was paid when they weren't the driver. They are banking on most people who have a job do not have the time to make the 2 court appearances required to get a speeding ticket thrown out. Are you happy now? This wasn't a case of my cousins uncles brothers son, it is first hand from someone.