Author Topic: Click It or Ticket  (Read 6953 times)

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Offline no guns here

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Re: Click It or Ticket
« Reply #60 on: June 01, 2009, 03:52:20 AM »
TM...

A couple of small points concerning your study. 

1.  Unless I missed something, it addressed OVERALL fatalities in several places.  One thing that was not mentioned is the NUMBER of drivers on the road.  Germany has over 80 million people in an area that I believe is much smaller than Texas.  Roads are constantly being expanded to deal with the traffic increase.  The increase in total number of miles driven has been exponential I'm sure over the past 30 years.  Likewise, I'm sure that the population increase has been felt in all nations.  So if the overall deaths stayed the same, or even increased a bit BUT the overall number of miles driven in a nation went up by 500% (or whatever) that would skew the results back a bit in the favor of seatbelts being a lifesaving device.


2.  The part about the buses fails to take into account the fact that the study was done in Europe.  Buses are limited to 100 km/h and in some places 80 km/h.  Passengers sit ABOVE the impact zone of most vehicles.  Since these speed limits for buses (and commercial trucks, vehicles pulling trailers, motor homes and certain large private vehicles) have been around for a while I wouldn't expect to see much of an increase or much of a decrease in those numbers.

Y'all can debate the merits of seatbelts all ya' want.  My family will continue to wear them at all times.  In about 1988, I was driving in Northern Virginia.  For the lack of a missing stop sign a guy broadsided my pickup.  To his credit he was going pretty slowly by the time he hit me.  I got the pleasure of seeing his kid, about 3-4 years old fly from the back seat between the front seats and onto the dash.  He busted the front window with his head.  Miraculously he wasn't injured at all.  Thank God for that.  Just a bit different angle or just a bit more speed and the outcome could have been much different.

About 3 years later, I rear ended a guy in Annandale Virginia.  Totally my fault.  I still remember seeing his car getting closer at a pretty high speed but then the seat belt kicked in and my face DID NOT get mashed into the steering wheel, dash or windshield.  I'm pretty certain as fast as I was going that I would have been injured in the crash.  As it was, just the force of my grip and bracing against the steering wheel bent the wheel in two places.

Whatever the studies are made to say... my personal studies indicate that my family will wear seatbelts from the time the engine starts until the engine is turned off.
"I feared for my life!"

Offline ncsurveyor

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Re: Click It or Ticket
« Reply #61 on: June 01, 2009, 04:09:46 AM »
I worked EMS for approximately 12 years.  Part time LEO for 2, and part time firefighter for about 7.

Can only recall 2 occasions where wearing a seat belt *might have* contributed to a death.  Beyond that, dozens of times where it made no difference, dozens of cases where it could have saved someone, had they been wearing one AND hundreds more where it did what it was supposed to.

I also affirm everyone's individual right to use one if they choose.  (But I wear mine)

Offline MGMorden

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Re: Click It or Ticket
« Reply #62 on: June 01, 2009, 05:54:56 AM »
I worked EMS for approximately 12 years.  Part time LEO for 2, and part time firefighter for about 7.

Can only recall 2 occasions where wearing a seat belt *might have* contributed to a death.  Beyond that, dozens of times where it made no difference, dozens of cases where it could have saved someone, had they been wearing one AND hundreds more where it did what it was supposed to.

I also affirm everyone's individual right to use one if they choose.  (But I wear mine)

A very balanced, logical viewpoint.  I'll not debate the safety record of seatbelts because I find that futile.  Seatbelts more often than not are going to help you in a crash.  I too wear mine for that reason (I think I stated it earlier in the thread but I've been in 3 collisions since I started driving - I was buckled each and every time, and for at least 1 I think that helped a lot). 

Still, I have always held that people have to be free to make their choices, even if it's the wrong one.  My vice is food.  I eat unhealthy and I know it (currently sitting at 240 lbs, which is a 60 lb gain in the last 10 years).  It would be safer, and healthier if I were to adjust my eating habits, and I'm sure that people can pull out studies showing that overweight people cost everyone else more in insurance premiums, but the simple fact is that in a free society,  people have to have choices.

Ask yourself - which would you prefer: a utopian society where everyone lived to be 100+, accidents (of any type) were rare, and crime was near zero - but you are legally monitored to the extreme.  You leave your house at approved times.  You drive at approved times to your approved destination.  You eat your government approved meals and are back into your home by curfew and you watch your censored and filtered TV (also all produced and provided by the government).  You mate with your approved partner and when the time comes to procreate, you submit your application for review. 

OR, you live in a world where crap happens.  People make mistakes, people get hurt, and sometimes things go wrong - but come rain or shine, we as individuals are allowed to choose for ourselves our path in life. 

Personally I can deal with some danger and grief in order to remain free.  In a very real way it's required.  Every time something terrible happens the politicians are at their ready with their pens ready to code up a new law to "fix it".  They have to "do something".  We (the collective we, no the individuals) have foolishly come to demand that from them.  The truth though is that any government or codified set of laws that is capable of providing a Utopian society must essentially strip out any chance to exercise free will.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Click It or Ticket
« Reply #63 on: June 01, 2009, 08:06:05 AM »
" a lamb and two wolfs deciding what dinner will be is freedom . A well armed lamb contesting the decision is liberty "
The law of the land says wear it , it was voted on get over it . That was freedon in action .
What those wishing not to wear them are calling freedon is liberty . And the ? is how much they are willing to do to exersise their right to liberty .
To each his own .
BTW Ben Franklin was the ""  ""
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Swampman

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Re: Click It or Ticket
« Reply #64 on: June 01, 2009, 08:11:24 AM »
Do you whiners wear orange vest when you go hunting?
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Click It or Ticket
« Reply #65 on: June 01, 2009, 08:39:26 AM »
Not duck hunting ! :D
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Offline MGMorden

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Re: Click It or Ticket
« Reply #66 on: June 01, 2009, 09:21:20 AM »
" a lamb and two wolfs deciding what dinner will be is freedom . A well armed lamb contesting the decision is liberty "
The law of the land says wear it , it was voted on get over it . That was freedon in action .
What those wishing not to wear them are calling freedon is liberty . And the ? is how much they are willing to do to exersise their right to liberty .
To each his own .
BTW Ben Franklin was the ""  ""

Your quote wasn't correct.  The original quote was "DEMOCRACY is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.  Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!"

However, it wasn't by Franklin.  Indeed, the word "lunch" didn't even appear in common usage in the English language until after his death.  Still though, a good quote when held to it's proper wording. 

Freedom and Liberty are one in the same.  The point of that quote was to show that voting on everything can lead to a tyranny of the majority.  Franklin hower, was indeed VERY opposed the masses voting away the freedoms of everyone else. 

As a prime example, an actual quote from Franklin:

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

 




Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Click It or Ticket
« Reply #67 on: June 01, 2009, 09:24:09 AM »
You might be wrong ?
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline MGMorden

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Re: Click It or Ticket
« Reply #68 on: June 01, 2009, 09:28:14 AM »
Do you whiners wear orange vest when you go hunting?

In many, many cases, no.  I mostly duck hunt just like SHOOTALL, and the balance of my hunting is a mix of turkey and deer - orange is required only for the deer hunting. And regardless of thew wisdom of the choice or not, I still oppose the government REQUIRING it.  That's just me though.  Personally I think laws are a last resort to anything.  The basic crimes of society should be illegal: rape, murder, theft, assault, etc.  I expect to pay taxes to support a police force to enforce those basic laws and a military to protect us from outside invasion.  Beyond that citizens should be free to live their lives, for better or for worse.  When the government has grown to the point where it can tell us that we can't go hunting without wearing orange, can't drive without wearing a seatbelt, or can't own a gun of type XYZ, then it's grown too large and powerful.

Offline MGMorden

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Re: Click It or Ticket
« Reply #69 on: June 01, 2009, 09:33:26 AM »
You might be wrong ?

Feel free to look it up.  That's the beautiful thing about facts - they can be verified ;).

Specifically though, the quote (which even when incorrectly attributed cites democracy, not freedom) attributed to Franklin was found in none of his writings.  Coupled with the modern style of the phrasing (including, as mentioned, words not even entering usage until after his death), it pretty much makes it nigh on impossible for the original quote to have originated from Franklin himself. 

Modern technology has taken us well past the point in history when we have to wonder whether the watercooler talk is correct or not.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Click It or Ticket
« Reply #70 on: June 01, 2009, 09:48:05 AM »
I got it from someone who sent me an E-mail . So if it ain't his then its mine ! ENJOY IT !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Cement Man

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Re: Click It or Ticket
« Reply #71 on: June 01, 2009, 10:08:32 AM »
There is no doubt that the relationship between personal liberty and the structure of laws and regulations come into conflict when the lines intersect. 
Since the world is getting more crowded, personal responsibility is diminishing, and things like honesty, respect, character, common sense, and compassion are not maintaining much stature or presence in the world anymore,  I would expect that these disagreements will only increase.
The only chance I see is for reasonable people to agree on reasonable standards, have an honest and moral society, and accept that not everyone will get everything exactly as they want it.
Most people that have participated in this thread are reasonable and sincere people.  Will they ever have a consensus on this issue?

Nope.
CIVES ARMA FERANT - Let the citizens bear arms.
POLITICIANS SHOULD BE LIMITED TO TWO TERMS - ONE IN OFFICE AND ONE IN PRISON.... Illinois already does this.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Click It or Ticket
« Reply #72 on: June 01, 2009, 10:24:00 AM »
Many in America have learned how to get a free ride . They mistake this as freedom when in fact it is slavery at its best . As the slaves don't realize they are one .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Click It or Ticket
« Reply #73 on: June 02, 2009, 01:54:04 AM »
One thing all this live free attitude omits is your freedom ends where mine begins and the reverse is true also. That said then any behavior you engauge in that can cost me money, suffering or any other loss is stepping past your freedom . A good example is traffic laws , they limit your ablity to hurt others . Smoking bans they do the same , you can smoke as long as it does not effect others ( impose on their freedon to breath ). Seat belt wear limits my out of pocket insurance cost so wear them . You don't really have to , you can choose not to engage in driving , that is your freedom .
It is a selfish waste of time to hide behind a cloke of freedom where you have freedom to act as you wish at the cost of others freedom . That sir is anything but freedom !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline ncsurveyor

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Re: Click It or Ticket
« Reply #74 on: June 02, 2009, 02:10:21 AM »
So we have had some testimonials about accidents and the benefits of having the seatbelt on in these accidents and that is all well and fine. However, one may question if seat belt wearers are more accident prone than non-wearers,,actually suggested in the research I mentioned above.

.............Now for my testimonial, in 45 years of driving I have only had 2 accidents (not counting MC accidents). ............ Both times no seat belt and no injuries.

You diminish people's testimony with some warped suggestions that seatbelt wearers are more susceptible to accidents, yet from your testimony, you are more likely to have an accident when not wearing a seatbelt, not counting your MC incidents (which I assume you were not wearing a seatbelt either).  Interesting.

I don't think anyone here was saying that seatbelts are the end all of safety devices.  Certainly the pregnant woman issue is a catch 22, but considering the anatomy of the pregnant woman, a specialized restraint would have to be designed to insure that forces on the baby don't impart to the mother.  Remember, they are fragile, pregnant women that is.  That's why we carry their groceries for them.  But if we insist hard enough, the pregnant woman seat belt will soon be required on all vehicles.

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Seatbelt laws are essentially what is known as 'indirect healthcare laws'...laws that prevent injuries according to somebody's theory.

Theory?  If we all could just concentrate on promoting individual choice, rather than disputing facts and conjuring up monikers in order to  concentrate people's ire on "indirect healthcare laws", maybe you wouldn't be required by law to wear your seatbelt.  By admitting something is safer, healthier, etc, doesn't mean we accept its mandated use. 

Come on, tell it like it is.  "Seat belt's save lives, but I don't want to wear it."  I'm with you all the way on that one.  I'll be right beside you with the big sign duct taped on a broom handle, saying "I'd rather belt a Liberal."

Shootall, I think the fact that insurance companies have warped their system to justify the artificial inflation of their premiums based on someone else's use of restraints is ridiculous.  In as much as I should not make decisions for others, I should not be held accountable to theirs.  It should always be a personal choice, that affects no one else.  Even monetarily.


Still waiting on Dale Earnhardt's testimonial on head restraints.  May not have made the race better or easier, but I haven't seen a broken axis since.  Wonder if roll cages really work?...........

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Click It or Ticket
« Reply #75 on: June 02, 2009, 02:28:22 AM »
it it effects my pocket book it effects me even for a moment.
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Click It or Ticket
« Reply #76 on: June 02, 2009, 03:50:44 AM »
why not have a device in cars and trucks that monitor use . If not in use the insurance co. has no obligation to pay ?
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline MGMorden

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Re: Click It or Ticket
« Reply #77 on: June 02, 2009, 04:03:43 AM »
One thing all this live free attitude omits is your freedom ends where mine begins and the reverse is true also. That said then any behavior you engauge in that can cost me money, suffering or any other loss is stepping past your freedom . A good example is traffic laws , they limit your ablity to hurt others . Smoking bans they do the same , you can smoke as long as it does not effect others ( impose on their freedon to breath ). Seat belt wear limits my out of pocket insurance cost so wear them . You don't really have to , you can choose not to engage in driving , that is your freedom .
It is a selfish waste of time to hide behind a cloke of freedom where you have freedom to act as you wish at the cost of others freedom . That sir is anything but freedom !

Then take it to the extreme.  Eating unhealthily leads to health problems which cost all of us in insurance premiums.  The eating habits of one affect all, so we need some regulation there to keep that in check.

And honestly, raising meat at all is a wholly inefficient use of land (like it or not a tract of land can feed 5x as many people when planted rather than used for livestock), and only serves to drive up the cost of food for those below the poverty line.

Big cars?  They pollute, and affect the air quality of everyone.  Need to keep that in check - no one gets to buy anything bigger than an oversized go-kart anymore.  Matter of fact it needs to be electric.

Driving after midnight?  It's been shown that over 25% of drivers on the road are intoxicated, making the likelyhood of an accident (and in turn medical bills) far more likely.  That'll affect all of our wallets, so nobody gets to drive after midnight.  

Your boat and 4x4?  Sorry, that just looks a little too hillbilly and will drop our property values.  You can't have those in this neighborhood . . . wait, they already got this one through so it's not even hypothetical.

You want to open a new restaurant?  Sorry, that will hurt the sales (and wallet) of the guy with the restaurant next door.  To keep that in line better to let the government run all the stores and businesses to ensure fair prices and equal distribution of the wealth.

You take that line of reasoning - that anything that anybody else does that effects you slightly MUST be controlled for the good of us all, and you end up in a communist state - from each according to his ability, to each according to his need.  It's not about sticking K's in front of stuff that begins with C people.  The whole goal behind communism is to balance everything out so that everyone has their fair, balanced little slice. Individual freedoms work against that goal, because by definition being free means that you cause some transient negative effects on others. Only in a completely homogeneous system where EVERYONE shares the same beliefs does that change, but such a land exists only in fantasy.

Only of something causes (or is likely to cause) clear and direct harm to another individual should we fall to that last resort that is a law.

Offline ncsurveyor

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Re: Click It or Ticket
« Reply #78 on: June 02, 2009, 04:08:23 AM »
Even in high speed racing we see that the restraint used led to Mr. Earnhardt's demise. So crap happens, .........
??? 

I believe lack of appropriate head restraints led to his demise. ::)

No I am not advocating roll caging all cars. I am stating plain and simply that

seat belts save lives, but the legal mandate to use them is unjust

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Come on, tell it like it is.  "Seat belt's save lives, but I don't want to wear it."  I'm with you all the way on that one.  I'll be right beside you with the big sign duct taped on a broom handle, saying "I'd rather belt a Liberal."
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Show me some data and show me how much money I'm saving

Ah.  It's all about the money.  :-X

Guess we can stop arguing personal freedom now.


Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Click It or Ticket
« Reply #79 on: June 02, 2009, 04:18:56 AM »
we drive on a highway we all pay for and share . We do not all eat from the same plate . And try to get health care if you have a pre existing condition . Meat production is mostly on private land so you do with your land as you wish as long as it does not spill on to mine ,seems big cars are being taxed higher , I agree no drunks should drive after midnight or other times ( since i don't drink then that can be eliminated as far as i care ), Pick a place to live that allows you to own both boat a 4X4 i do , the new resturant goes thru. zonning so that's already taking place ,
Now i said where your freedon starts mine ends and the reverse is true . i did not say you could not do anything that affects me . What is infered is you can't hurt me or others . Your post only shows the hype people use to cover a me first attitude .
It reakes of the i have no responsiblity to others attitude . My frind that is the reason so many laws have been passed so azz thinks he can tread on the rest of us .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Click It or Ticket
« Reply #80 on: June 02, 2009, 04:20:18 AM »
I can't show you how much $$$$ you save but your insurance agent should be able to .
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Offline MGMorden

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Re: Click It or Ticket
« Reply #81 on: June 02, 2009, 04:38:36 AM »
We do not all eat from the same plate . And try to get health care if you have a pre existing condition .

Pre-existing conditions only apply when applying for new insurance.  If the condition is maintained through switching insurances it's covered.  And by eating unhealthily, you are more likely to DEVELOP a health condition, and hence cost the rest of us in insurance premiums.

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Meat production is mostly on private land so you do with your land as you wish as long as it does not spill on to mine

Wearing a seatbelt or not occurs within a private vehicle.  The only arguments for the "harm" it causes to other stems from what occurs within that vehicle (afterall, the accident is going to happen or not regardless of the seatbelt situation).  So precedent is already been established that the "you do with your land as you wish" thing simply doesn't apply in a protectionist world.

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seems big cars are being taxed higher

Taxes do not prevent the harm caused to others, the merely shift the freedom to drive those vehicles to those with deeper pockets.

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I agree no drunks should drive after midnight or other times ( since i don't drink then that can be eliminated as far as i care )

That wasn't what I originally stated. The fact is that many of the OTHER drivers are drunk after midnight, so you, even if sober, are at a much higher risk of an accident by driving after midnight.  Much like not wearing a seatbelt, simply by driving, sober or drunk, you are risking raising all of our insurance premiums by being out that late.  If you want to keep everyone from those horrible rate increases, then EVERYONE should be banned from driving after midnight (or heck even after the sun goes down, as accidents in general increase after dark).

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Pick a place to live that allows you to own both boat a 4X4 i do

The "if you don't like it leave" argument never works, because the other side can spout the same thing and nobody gets anywhere.  It's easier to try and fix a problem than to run from it.

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the new resturant goes thru. zonning so that's already taking place

Zoning (while still unfair IMHO), generally strives to group businesses with other businesses and houses with other houses.  It doesn't prevent businesses from competing with each other, but it certainly DOES crush your "you do what you will with your land" idea.  Can't have a gas station in the middle of the residential neighborhood, because even though you own the land, that would cause property values to fall.  Can't have that.  Keep in line citizen.

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Now i said where your freedon starts mine ends and the reverse is true . i did not say you could not do anything that affects me . What is infered is you can't hurt me or others . Your post only shows the hype people use to cover a me first attitude .
It reakes of the i have no responsiblity to others attitude . My frind that is the reason so many laws have been passed so azz thinks he can tread on the rest of us .

Nobody is "treading" over anyone.  What's being argued is that unless something has a *direct* harm to another person, it should not be illegal or disallowed.  Rate hikes or tax increases are not direct, nor is diminished property value.  People complain about this political party or that politcal party screwing up the country, but it's not one particular group.  For the most part it's the alternating stacking of more and more laws from BOTH groups that are ruining what was once a free nation.  When you do it the response is "Well, that's the price we pay for yadda yadda.".  When they do it the response is "Those bastards!  That makes no sense!".  At the rate we're going the lemmings will march into the sea in droves long before you realize that you've legislated away all your freedoms.  Alternating cheering and moaning the whole way down.

"So this is how liberty dies . . . with thunderous applause."

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Click It or Ticket
« Reply #82 on: June 02, 2009, 05:01:51 AM »
lets look at facts smoking is hurting smokers and non smokers . had smokers not infringed or forced themselves on others then there would have been no need for the laws banning it . The seat belt thing is a cost thing wheather you or i like it . all your other arguments have a nother side . Zonning protects other business in our area as only so many of one type business can be in a certian area . These laws are for the benifit of all not just you or me .
you want to hear about a law that has been on the books since they started passing laws ? I Va. if i own cows and you don't wish to have them graze you land you have to pay for half the cost of the fence i build . I get to pick the type of fence , you have no option but to allow grazing or pay . A man just got shot and killed in Caroline co. Va. over this law . He was being forced to pay and attacked the owner of the fence and was shot and killed . So you can see these type laws are nothing new .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Click It or Ticket
« Reply #83 on: June 02, 2009, 08:42:31 AM »
like i posted before ask your agent . You know what i never said i agreeded , only what i have heard as the reason . I do wear mine though , did so before the law
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Offline Cement Man

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Re: Click It or Ticket
« Reply #84 on: June 02, 2009, 08:49:33 AM »
I thought I was done with this, but here goes again.

In a previous post I related a story about about my Dad being rear-ended by a high speed drunk and being able to maintain control and avoid a head-on.  My Dad never lied or exaggerated to me, so I take it as he told it.  I posted it as he told it.  Point is, that his wearing a belt absolutely resulted in preventing a secondary crash that could have been deadly for several people.

I don't post things like that because I want to argue with people. 

It is not just wishful to say that seat belts can help you to maintain control in case of an accident.  It's true.  Not always, in fact more often than not it likely wouldn't, but enough to merit the justification and requirement for wearing one.

That being the case, it's not just your own safety that your are putting at risk when you do not buckle up.  Not an uncommon premise.

http://www.drivealive.org.za/DriveAlive/WebSite/WearingSeatbelts.asp

http://www.med.nyu.edu/patientcare/library/article.html?ChunkIID=14125

http://www.rd.com/content/printContent.do?contentId=12630

http://www.aboutdrivingschools.com/driving/vehicles/seatbelts.asp

http://articles.directorym.net/One_seat_belt_at_a_time-a914515.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rt201BFHtrk

Just a safety tip - free of charge....

They do make some pretty nice " combination tools" for around $10 that cut seatbelts, break glass, deflate air bags, have emrgency light, etc.  I carry one in my drivers door side pocket.  Sometimes when roadways are near rivers, lakes, ponds, etc. folks go off the road and into the water.  These tools can be handy in a situation like that. (If you are still conscious.) And they are legal everywhere TM, Big Brother won't arrest you for having one.  ;)

The one I have is called "Rescue + 1" by General Tools.  available at Home Depot

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&productId=100557609&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&ci_sku=100557609&ci_src=14110944&cm_mmc=shopping-_-google-_-D25X-_-100557609




CIVES ARMA FERANT - Let the citizens bear arms.
POLITICIANS SHOULD BE LIMITED TO TWO TERMS - ONE IN OFFICE AND ONE IN PRISON.... Illinois already does this.

Offline MGMorden

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Re: Click It or Ticket
« Reply #85 on: June 02, 2009, 09:28:38 AM »
In a previous post I related a story about about my Dad being rear-ended by a high speed drunk and being able to maintain control and avoid a head-on.  My Dad never lied or exaggerated to me, so I take it as he told it.  I posted it as he told it.  Point is, that his wearing a belt absolutely resulted in preventing a secondary crash that could have been deadly for several people.

I don't post things like that because I want to argue with people. 

It is not just wishful to say that seat belts can help you to maintain control in case of an accident.  It's true.  Not always, in fact more often than not it likely wouldn't, but enough to merit the justification and requirement for wearing one.

That being the case, it's not just your own safety that your are putting at risk when you do not buckle up.  Not an uncommon premise.

Just a small quip, but in the case of a rear end collision the momentum of the vehicle being rear ended is still forward - the collision increases that forward momentum and the occupants lack of momentum is taken up by the seat (because they will be pushed back against the seat, not thrown foward as in a head-on collision). 

So while it may provide a small steadying effect from side to side motion, even without a seatbelt the tendency when rear ended is to be pulled back INTO your seat rather than thrown forward.  It's quite likely that if he maintained control with it then he would have maintained control without.  Both of our positions there are merely opinion though.  Without proper lab tests and experiments we can't say one way or another whether there is a significance or not. 

A very important thing to remember is correlation does not imply causation.  IE, just because A was true when B occurred does not mean that A CAUSED B to occur. Doesn't mean it didn't either - but proper testing has to be done to determine if there really is a relationship.  Or for this specific situation, having the seatbelt on and controlling the vehicle during the crash does not necessarily mean that having the seatbelt on caused him to maintain control.  The most famous example used here to illustrate this is the "pirates and global warming" example.  If no further testing was done we can see that in the last 300 years there has been a steady rise in global temperatures.  There has also been a steady decline in the number of pirates on the open seas.  Therefore, declining numbers of pirates have caused the temperature to rise.  It's easy to see the fault in that logic, but it applies to all situations before testing is done. 

Again, I speak as a person who actually wears their seatbelt religiously.  I think it's a smart thing to do as it most certainly does make you safer.  I just don't support the government's right to force an individual to do it.  It's the principle of it. 

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Click It or Ticket
« Reply #86 on: June 02, 2009, 09:33:08 AM »
nice post , i have been hit in the rear 5 times , once by a truck going 50-55mph . you can rest assured after being slamed back into the seat you go forward . Once i shattered the rear window of a pickup truck and then hit the sterring wheel hard enough to bend it . and crack the windshield .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Cement Man

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Re: Click It or Ticket
« Reply #87 on: June 02, 2009, 10:33:17 AM »
In a previous post I related a story about about my Dad being rear-ended by a high speed drunk and being able to maintain control and avoid a head-on.  My Dad never lied or exaggerated to me, so I take it as he told it.  I posted it as he told it.  Point is, that his wearing a belt absolutely resulted in preventing a secondary crash that could have been deadly for several people.

I don't post things like that because I want to argue with people. 

It is not just wishful to say that seat belts can help you to maintain control in case of an accident.  It's true.  Not always, in fact more often than not it likely wouldn't, but enough to merit the justification and requirement for wearing one.

That being the case, it's not just your own safety that your are putting at risk when you do not buckle up.  Not an uncommon premise.

Just a small quip, but in the case of a rear end collision the momentum of the vehicle being rear ended is still forward - the collision increases that forward momentum and the occupants lack of momentum is taken up by the seat (because they will be pushed back against the seat, not thrown foward as in a head-on collision). 

So while it may provide a small steadying effect from side to side motion, even without a seatbelt the tendency when rear ended is to be pulled back INTO your seat rather than thrown forward.  It's quite likely that if he maintained control with it then he would have maintained control without.  Both of our positions there are merely opinion though.  Without proper lab tests and experiments we can't say one way or another whether there is a significance or not. 

A very important thing to remember is correlation does not imply causation.  IE, just because A was true when B occurred does not mean that A CAUSED B to occur. Doesn't mean it didn't either - but proper testing has to be done to determine if there really is a relationship.  Or for this specific situation, having the seatbelt on and controlling the vehicle during the crash does not necessarily mean that having the seatbelt on caused him to maintain control.  The most famous example used here to illustrate this is the "pirates and global warming" example.  If no further testing was done we can see that in the last 300 years there has been a steady rise in global temperatures.  There has also been a steady decline in the number of pirates on the open seas.  Therefore, declining numbers of pirates have caused the temperature to rise.  It's easy to see the fault in that logic, but it applies to all situations before testing is done. 

Again, I speak as a person who actually wears their seatbelt religiously.  I think it's a smart thing to do as it most certainly does make you safer.  I just don't support the government's right to force an individual to do it.  It's the principle of it. 


As stated in my earlier post, my Dad was in a curve to the right with oncoming traffic at 55 mph.  The drunk was estimated at 80mph.  Even a straight-line rear end job and he would have been pushed into it if he couldn't react.  Where exactly the impact angle or POI was on both cars, I don't know.  Bumpers & height match I don't know. Road surface and condition I don't know. 

That was 33 years ago and my Dad has been dead for 22 years, so I'm afraid I just can't interview him about it.  He was a very experienced driver, (in his working life he was truck driver, professional firefighter/engineer, a patrol police officer, and a deputy state fire marshal who drove 50K miles/yr.) a very smart man, and his conclusion was that the seatbelt was primarily responsible for his being able to maintain control. He was very clear about that.
As I recall, it was probably the convincing event in his life about the value of seatbelts helping to maintain control - because he experienced it.

He was far clearer about the incident and his conclusions than conjecture, speculation, and weak analytical analogies would bring him to conclude.  And far as I know, he didn't start out with any judgmental prejudices founded in principles he didn't agree with.  There were no seatbelt laws then, so he couldn't have.  I trust his conclusion completely and I agree with the premise that seat belts can help you to maintain control in a mishap.
 
CIVES ARMA FERANT - Let the citizens bear arms.
POLITICIANS SHOULD BE LIMITED TO TWO TERMS - ONE IN OFFICE AND ONE IN PRISON.... Illinois already does this.

Offline Cement Man

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Re: Click It or Ticket
« Reply #88 on: June 02, 2009, 12:54:00 PM »
TM,
Hard, exact, every-time statistics, are probably not going to be had.  I'm not sure any statistics will placate your desire to argue about this.  Since seat belt compliance is noted on accident and insurance reports I am sure there is a significant database, but you are mighty hard to convince.
One simple way to start out research might be a simulation:  Do not wear a seatbelt and aggressively rock forward in your car until your head hits the inside of the windshield.  See what happens.  Then take your injured forehead to the doctor and see if he charges you to treat it. In fact get an ambulance ride to the doctor. Turn the charges into your insurance company.  Note the results of your simulation.
When you feel better try the same thing with your seatbelt on.  Note the differences from the first part of the simulation.  Have your bayonet ready in case you need it to get out.
Now, please take this in fun - because I really do not want you to get hurt and I am just joshing!! Be safe and have a good life! ;D
CIVES ARMA FERANT - Let the citizens bear arms.
POLITICIANS SHOULD BE LIMITED TO TWO TERMS - ONE IN OFFICE AND ONE IN PRISON.... Illinois already does this.

Offline Cement Man

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Re: Click It or Ticket
« Reply #89 on: June 02, 2009, 05:09:31 PM »
Can I borrow your car?  ;D ;D
CIVES ARMA FERANT - Let the citizens bear arms.
POLITICIANS SHOULD BE LIMITED TO TWO TERMS - ONE IN OFFICE AND ONE IN PRISON.... Illinois already does this.