Author Topic: Which would be a better kids small deer barrel, 223 or 357 mag (Read 2978 times)

Default · « **Reply #30 on:** March 27, 2009, 08:49:41 AM »

Heres another vote for both ... Versatility to the 223 as mentioned for smaller critters ... And me and my missus have both taken good sized game with the 223 handy using the Hornady TAP 75gr ammo ( 250+ lbs. Boar Hog & a nice Dahl ram) Much to my surprise with the hog.
I Also second the report of the 223 being alot more then the 357 mag , 357 mag is a very easy report to the ears (with no protection) and a very very gentle recoil pulse and totally non-exsistent in a 38 spcl.

A good Partition or barnes in the 223 and dont forget the winnie 64 gr , I hear alot of good reports on that bullet from .224 shooters .. and the 357 is good in the 180gr class hard cast or soft point... With the option later to ream the 357 to the more powerful 357 maximum ( mad-max gets into the 35 Rem ballistic with less recoil i hear)

Only real advantage over the 357 mag that the 223 has is it is offered in the super lite youth model , The 357 mag isnt . Quite a difference in felt weigth . I have owned both.

My 2 cents

Default
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VVV This is the Ram and the Hog that gave up the ghost "one and done" to the 223 75gr TAP round

Cajunhunter · « **Reply #31 on:** March 27, 2009, 09:56:28 AM »

I know you asked about a .223 and .357 but if I may make a suggestion based on real life personal experience. Scratch both and go with a .243. I have three sons that hunt and they all use a .243. Two use a .243 Handi and the oldest shoots my .243 Rem. 700. This year my 9yo killed 5 with his .243 Handi, he love to shoot it and he is 50lbs soaking wet in hunting cothes. The closest was about 30yds and 2 where beyond 100yds one being around 140yds. 3 of his kills where dead in their tracks the other 2 did not go more than 15yds. My 12yo has killed 7 over the past 2 years with the same performance. My youngest is yet to kill his first. He is still too noisy in the stand.

As a kid I started hunting with a .243 and have killed over 30 deer with it. Some where over 250yds and I never had to track the first one. I hunted with a .243 until just a few years ago until I purchased a .444 Handi for primative weapons season and my oldest claimed my .243 Rem 700 as his own. When hunting we shoot factory Federal Premium with the 85gr Sierra HPBT bullet and almost always get a clean pass through unless the slug ends up in the opposite shoulder bone. I teach them to concentrate on patience and proper shot placement. All of the rifles are zeroed at 200yds and are about 2" high at 100yds. Coyotes, beavers, plinking no problem. The only draw back is that it is not a thick brush or large game round. But the low recoil and flat trajectory are excellent for kids to hunt with.

With the 85gr factory loads, the .243 is somewhat faster than a .223 Remington with a 55gr bullet but the 85gr .243 has a higher sectional density so it has the same velocity at 300 yards as the .223 has at 200. I was planning on sending my .444 handi back this sumer for some barrels and I had considered the .223 but I'm gonna get another .243 instead. I already have 3, I'm extremely happy with the performance, I'm planning on reloading in the future and I'll have to buy the .243 dies anyway so why complicate it.

Just My 2cs

My 9yo with his .243 Handi at around 140 yds. BANG FLOP

JerryKo · « **Reply #32 on:** March 27, 2009, 12:41:59 PM »

Cajunhunter,

That is one awesome photo. You def done good on your end! Congrats!!

Jerry

Big Nasty · « **Reply #33 on:** March 27, 2009, 11:03:10 PM »

.223 yes everyone is entitled to their opinion but as for me I dont understand the hype of shooting pistol rounds in a rifle, but thats just me.

Big Nasty · « **Reply #34 on:** March 27, 2009, 11:10:59 PM »

cajunhunter that is an awesome pic I WISH I could get my 10 year old to start shooting my .243 he is still scared of it. He wanted a 20 gauge so he could duck hunt with me and I think that did him in. But my 7 year old is ready he wont go to sleep at night unless the outdoor channel is on tv, it is his bed time storie I guess you could say.

Brett

Lon371 · « **Reply #35 on:** March 27, 2009, 11:24:50 PM »

Quote from: Big Nasty on March 27, 2009, 11:03:10 PM

.223 yes everyone is entitled to their opinion but as for me I dont understand the hype of shooting pistol rounds in a rifle, but thats just me.

I vote .357 mag, because it is legal here. Also since it was posted range will be 100 yards or less. Also I like the bigger lead for bigger holes

And as stated earlier can always upgrade to .357 maximum for bigger holes.

Lonny

JPShelton · « **Reply #36 on:** March 28, 2009, 11:27:59 PM »

Quote from: clearwater on March 26, 2009, 10:21:53 AM

The little feller is 60 lbs right now. It would be a couple of years before he is legal for deer, but I would like to
have him shooting at the range a bunch in the meantime.

I have a couple of 7mm mausers he could use when he is up to the recoil.

As far as legal in California-----

CA DFG says " may only be taken by rifles using centerfire cartridges
with softnose or expanding projectiles"

If I may make a suggestion, based on real life experience, go with the .223.

I was born in California, lived there for most of my life, and hunted deer there every season since 1976. Most of the deer that I've killed in the Golden State were one-shot drops from a .223.

I started using the .223 about 20 years ago or so, first in a Mini-14. I elected to use it because it was legal to do so, the deer that I would hunt while using it would be small and shot at fairly close range, and my Mini-14 was stainless steel, and I felt it would handle 7 to 14 days of constant exposure to Ventana Wilderness salt air and fog better than my old Springfield would.

Winchester had just come out with their 64 grain Power Point load then. I used it successfully with "bang, flop" results, most of the time, and if the deer did trot a ways after taking the hit, they didn't trot far. When they did trot off, I am certain they'd have done so when hit in the same place with my old Springfield, too.

I was very impressed with the round. It is inherintly accurate. It is very pleasant to shoot. It is easy to shoot well. It is cheap to reload for so you can shoot one often without going broke. And it has enough power to kill deer and kill them dead.

I ditched the Mini-14 but kept using the .223 in a T/C Contender Carbine on coastal blacktail hunts with total and complete satisfaction.

And I still use the .223 as a deer rifle. If the round didn't work for me, I'd have ditched it a long time ago.

Nowadays, I shoot a Handi-Rifle in .223. When hunting deer or similar sized critters with it, I now prefer to shoot the 62 grain Barnes TSX bullet. The amount of penetration that little pill gets is incredible. It digs in deep, expands like it is supposed to, pretty much liquifies the lungs on a boiler room shot, and punches its way out to make an exit hole.

I now have a .30-'06 barrel for my Handi. I'm still going to use the .223 for my smallish local whitetails next season, because it works well on them, too, just as it did on California blacktails.

-JP

PeterCartwright · « **Reply #37 on:** March 29, 2009, 04:13:14 PM »

Quote from: JerryKo on March 27, 2009, 07:55:15 AM

Glad to hear the Barnes worked well. I haven't had the chance to harvest with it, but I was sure it would damage the vitals and exit. It did exit, right, and what was the velocity and distance, if you dont mind?

Jerry

Sorry for the delay, Jerry. Had to take care of my day job. The doe I shot was almost exactly 50 yards from my blind. I don't have a chronograph, so I'd only be guessing on velocity. The bullet traveled through both lungs and heart and just broke the skin on the off-side but did not exit. This is only one example. The doe did a little dance in a five yard circle and dropped very dead.

The barrel in my Handi has a 9" twist, so I'd really like to "bump it up a notch" to try the Barnes 62 gr. TSX. Shouldn't be any trouble stabilizing that, at least that's my hypothesis. Other reports (and pics) from .223/53 gr. TSX users seem to show more dramatic penetration than I experienced.

PC

jmayton · « **Reply #38 on:** March 31, 2009, 04:27:48 AM »

Since you handload, either would be fine. I've shot a bunch of hogs over the past couple of years (75+) and most of those have fallen to the .223 from my handi or my AR. I shoot my beloved 55gr Sierra GameKing SPBT at around 3100fps (Barnes would be great too, I'm just too cheap). My brother-in-law even took 4 doe with it last year. Yeah, I've had some hogs run after being hit...but that's happend with my .243, 7.62x54R, 30-06, a .270, and a .44 mag so any bullet placed badly with give bad results.

That being said, I'd get the .357. I like bigger bullets for deer for the simple fact they they will typically leave a larger hole and the deer will bleed more. So when (not if) he makes a bad shot, there's more of a trail and more of a chance of a recovered animal. I think the bigger bullet, though like I said above needs to be placed well to be effective, leaves more room for error. I don't let newbies hunt with my .223, it just needs to be placed too well. I am actually thinking about the .357 for my daughter to hunt with when she's ready.

JPShelton · « **Reply #39 on:** April 01, 2009, 09:11:48 PM »

Quote from: PeterCartwright on March 29, 2009, 04:13:14 PM

Quote from: JerryKo on March 27, 2009, 07:55:15 AM
Glad to hear the Barnes worked well. I haven't had the chance to harvest with it, but I was sure it would damage the vitals and exit. It did exit, right, and what was the velocity and distance, if you dont mind?

Jerry

The barrel in my Handi has a 9" twist, so I'd really like to "bump it up a notch" to try the Barnes 62 gr. TSX. Shouldn't be any trouble stabilizing that, at least that's my hypothesis. Other reports (and pics) from .223/53 gr. TSX users seem to show more dramatic penetration than I experienced.

PC

I would heartily recommend that anyone attempting to use the .223 Remington for deer or similarly sized game give the 62 grain Barnes TSX bullets a try. The amount of penetration that this bullet offers when fired from the .223 case is simply astounding. It shouldn't do what it does, being so light and lacking in sectional density, but it really does seem to allow the little .223 to bridge the gap that used to exist between it and the common 6mm rounds.

I have zero issues with stabilization of these bullets out of my 1:9 twist Handi-Rifle barrel. They provide very respectable accuracy out of my rifle, with groups hovering right around M.O.A. for 100 yard, 5-shot strings.

They aren't cheap, but the results they deliver are make the price of admission seem like a pretty good bargin.

-JP

rickt300 · « **Reply #40 on:** April 02, 2009, 05:10:24 AM »

i never used any Barnes bullets in a 22 centerfire. I used the 60 grain Hornady sopft and hollow point bullets with lots of penetration and quick results. I also used the 70 grain Speer to very good effect several times, this rather blunt bullet stabilized easily in my 223's and I have never had a 223 with a twist faster than 1 in 12.

gould · « **Reply #41 on:** April 03, 2009, 05:05:21 AM »

I have not used the 357 mag. but my daughter has used her 223 handi for 2 years and has gotten 2 deer both one shot kills. I have her shooting the 60 grain partitions and keep her shots within 60 yards. And she is only 10 but she likes to shoot alot and that I think is the key you put the bullet were it needs to go and they will fall.

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #42 on:** April 03, 2009, 12:48:56 PM »

It is obvious at this point that either one will do the job. I live in Indiana and the 357 Mag is legal for deer, but the 223 is not. I am not sure about our laws. A .243 in a hand gun is OK, but not in a rifle - go figure. Personally, I think if the shooting distance is going to be under 100 yards go for the 357, since you hand load, you can ream it to 357 Max later (for under $50) and hand load for it, stretching the range a bit further or more energy at the same distances. If you are going to shoot at longer distances or anticipate shooting at longer distances, the 223 is a better choice. The 223 would be a good choice if it were going to double duty as a deer rifle and a varmint round. Cost to shoot them is relatively cheap and that is an important factor, because young shooters (old shooter as well) need a lot of trigger time to not only increase their skill, but increase their confidence. I do not care what you are shooting, you have to put the bullet where it will take out the lungs, heart or some other killing zone. The shooter needs to know exactly where to shoot and that when they pull the trigger, it is going there. That only happens when the shooter has the skill and confidence to make it happen. Good Luck and Good Shooting

bigvarmnt · « **Reply #43 on:** April 03, 2009, 04:00:14 PM »

If you're going to send in for a barrel, get both. If you go with 223, Hodgdon's website has youth loads listed for reloading rifle carts. They have a 60% rule for H4895. They list 243 on up but the rule may apply to 223. I would get further info before trying it. May want to start him off with that.

rickt300 · « **Reply #44 on:** April 09, 2009, 07:40:11 AM »

The 60 grain Hornady HP was originally touted as a deer bullet in their second edition reloading book, saying it was heavier jacketed than the 60 grain soft point. I have used them both, only on broadside rib cage hits and neck shot in front of the shoulder blade. I'd say 60% of them exited with the others under the hide on the far side. I may try the 55 grain Sierra Gamekings as I really like Sierra bullets. I have tried the 357 on deer a couple of times and out of a pistol I just wasn't all that impressed. Reminds me of the 30 carbine round. I think getting both barrels is the way to go as I think the 357 would be a fine, fun light rifle round.

Swampman · « **Reply #45 on:** April 09, 2009, 03:32:53 PM »

The rimless cartridges are more problematic. I have the .357 & I shoot .38 Specials in it mostly. The .223 is unsuitable for deer sized game.

rickt300 · « **Reply #46 on:** April 09, 2009, 04:55:32 PM »

Having cleanly killed around 20 deer with a 223 and a few feral hogs too, I have to disagree that the 223 is unsuitable for deer size game. I have killed two deer with a 222 and factory loads. They all fell right down or at the most traveled less than 50 paces. That is darned adequate to me.

Swampman · « **Reply #47 on:** April 10, 2009, 12:23:14 AM »

The same has been done 1000 times over with the .22LR. Is it suitable?

rickt300 · « **Reply #48 on:** April 10, 2009, 03:09:50 AM »

I have to say the 223 is a considerable jump up from the 22 long rifle.

Swampman · « **Reply #49 on:** April 10, 2009, 09:00:13 AM »

I wouldn't, both should be illegal for deer sized game hunting.

gendoc · « **Reply #50 on:** April 10, 2009, 01:49:06 PM »

round here, stalk'n thru a swamp bottom.
you can kick-up quite a few different things while search'n for whitetail...
wonder up on a 300lb sow with some piglets, you need all the horses you can get.
or she'll make you drop anything in your hands and go for a tree.

thats why i carry a 45acp backup along with my 45/70.
but between the two you mentioned....357 hands down!!!!!!!

some people say this is shotgun territory, ....only if your a beginner

BC Steve · « **Reply #51 on:** April 10, 2009, 04:33:58 PM »

Most kids can handle a 7mm-08 too and it puts them down every time.

JPShelton · « **Reply #52 on:** April 15, 2009, 12:20:41 AM »

Quote from: Swampman on April 10, 2009, 09:00:13 AM

I wouldn't, both should be illegal for deer sized game hunting.

Where the .223 Remington is concerned, I suspect that every one of the over 25 deer I've killed with the .223 would be in full agreement with Swampman as quoted above.

Honestly, I fail to see why I would need any more energy or penetration on little blacktails averaging around 100 pounds on the hoof than the .223 has delivered for me since the 1980s. How can you kill a little blacktail deer any deader than dead, or any quicker than instant?

JP

JPShelton · « **Reply #53 on:** April 15, 2009, 01:01:54 AM »

Quote from: Swampman on April 09, 2009, 03:32:53 PM

The rimless cartridges are more problematic. I have the .357 & I shoot .38 Specials in it mostly. The .223 is unsuitable for deer sized game.

The .223 might be unsuitable for Swampman, but it suits me right down to the ground, and I have already articulated some of the reasons why I hold this opinion on this thread.

I would be very interested to know why those who believe the .223 Remington loaded with controlled expansion bullets expressly designed and intended for use on deer-sized game is not suitable for such use. I think a thread where folks who share Swampman's view can articulate why they hold it might be very entertaining reading.

-JP

rickt300 · « **Reply #54 on:** April 15, 2009, 05:06:20 AM »

It's just like the guys that say the 243 isn't powerful enough for deer, they must have never done it.

petemi · « **Reply #55 on:** April 15, 2009, 06:21:50 AM »

What IS the POINT?? Why does everyone have to kill the biggest deer with the smallest bullet??? I've been awakened at 11 at night to help some jerk track a deer shot with a 5 or 6 mm. A couple of times it was a well placed shot, the deer didn't bleed much, went a distance and was hard to find on rain soaked autumn leaves. The smallest bullet I will allow hunting deer on my property is the .25-06. I use nothing smaller than 7mm-08, and prefer the .45-70. The .30 cal lever guns tend to collect dust these days.

Quite a few years ago, I double lunged a buck at dark thirty as a bad snow storm was moving in. I shot him through both lungs with a .30-30 and 170 gr. Cor-lokt. There was a piece of lung hanging on a branch on his off side. The storm closed in so rapidly, I could not wait and let him lay down. I had to follow immediately. I'd track and he'd jump ahead of me, leaving a big blotch of blood on the snow. The storm hit in full fury with 70 mph winds and blinding snow. I knew where I was, but was afraid of being disorientated. The snow rapidly covered the blood trail, and all tracks looked the same. I made two large figure eight swings through the area I thought he could be in and never found him. The storm was horendous, and I was afraid of not finding my way back to the house. I broke off and took a known track home.

I found him the next morning about 75 yards from where I had to quit. The wolves, coyotes, eagles, ravens and crows had found him first. That's why I appreciate my .45.70.

Pete

rickt300 · « **Reply #56 on:** April 15, 2009, 09:14:28 AM »

The point is that I have seen deer lost when hit with some pretty big guns yet I am 100% to the good using 223, 22-250 and 6MM Remington. My least favorite deer rifle is the 30-30. Every year Tommy who swears by his 30-30 creates some huge tracking issue and shoots no less than 15 shots a year to fill his three tags. Is the 30-30 not big enough for deer? Sure it is but there is a lot more to killing than the cartridge involved. Typically I shoot 5 deer a year using a variety of rifles from 223 to 35 Whelen. Is the Whelen a better deer cartridge than the 223? I have a greater range of shot angles I'll take using it but with the shots I will take within either cartridges limitations I get dead deer either way.