My $65 DIY .357 Mag Handi

[maglvr44]

This goes out to the folks that have claimed(with no logical reasoning I might add) the 357 I built is unsafe.
Please, one and all, feel free to explain just exactly what it is that has you so concerned that the gun is unsafe.
Please, none of the typical, unfounded "reasons" already mentioned, we have all read them and there has yet to be justification as to a TRUE design flaw or weak point!
Just because some people don't like glue is not a logical reason, because part of the ejector was formed from a nail is not a logical reason (steel is steel whether from a nail or from a bolt, an old pair of scissors or the bumper of a 1958 Studebaker) granted some steels are harder than others but those doing a non-stressful job need be no stronger than the common nail.
As for a 3/4 inch wrap of tape to hold things centered until fastened in place, what is the harm there?
Does masking tape somehow dissolve steel when confined in an enclosed environment? If it does that's news to me!
Let's hear where there is a TRUE, WEAK point is in this design, and exactly what structural problems you think it may cause.
Cheers all

[LaPoint]

Unless I am mistaken it was a few self reliant, tenacious men, thinking outside the box using more then a little ingenuity that conceived, designed and then built all of the weapons and ammunition we use today. When the tools they needed to accomplish their task did not exist or they could not afford them they designed, and built those as well.
Granted these guys are not inventing anything new here but are motivated by that same spirit that has accomplished so much in our country.
 
I am sure that these few mad tinkers who are building their own more then appreciate constructive criticism, and Ideas that would help them along the way, that is the point of there posting on this forum after all. What I am sure they don’t appreciate and I know I don’t are people who attack them personally by calling into question their honor and integrity by stating these men are not who they say they are and spewing forth unsolicited, mean spirited criticism using someone else’s knowledge they have only read about and then regurgitated onto this forum as their own.

I think we have enough people in this country sitting behind desks proclaiming in arrogance what is best for the rest of us. One in particular is sitting behind the big desk with a teleprompter as the country swirls down the porcelain bowl. So that being said I will due as Teddy Roosevelt advised a young exuberant trooper he came across who was trying in vain to charge up San Juan Hill. “Son, I believe that Horse is dead feel free to dismount at any time”.

[maglvr44]

Unless I am mistaken it was a few self reliant, tenacious men, thinking outside the box using more then a little ingenuity that conceived, designed and then built all of the weapons and ammunition we use today. When the tools they needed to accomplish their task did not exist or they could not afford them they designed, and built those as well.
Granted these guys are not inventing anything new here but are motivated by that same spirit that has accomplished so much in our country.
 
I am sure that these few mad tinkers who are building their own more then appreciate constructive criticism, and Ideas that would help them along the way, that is the point of there posting on this forum after all. What I am sure they don’t appreciate and I know I don’t are people who attack them personally by calling into question their honor and integrity by stating these men are not who they say they are and spewing forth unsolicited, mean spirited criticism using someone else’s knowledge they have only read about and then regurgitated onto this forum as their own.

I think we have enough people in this country sitting behind desks proclaiming in arrogance what is best for the rest of us. One in particular is sitting behind the big desk with a teleprompter as the country swirls down the porcelain bowl. So that being said I will due as Teddy Roosevelt advised a young exuberant trooper he came across who was trying in vain to charge up San Juan Hill. “Son, I believe that Horse is dead feel free to dismount at any time”.

AMEN to that! and might I add my personal favorite quote from ole Teddy.....

"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat."

[mtbugle]

being as this is a nice project thread perhaps I could get a small bit of advise from the safer tinkerers here.  I am endevering to use my 357 barrel as a insert, not to permanently affix to barrel, and want it to be universaly usable for 12ga chamber. The chamber end of barrel is too small to cut a rim on to fit where shot shell rim is. I have noticed in just couple of barrels I have here that the forcing cone is not consistant enough for headspacing even on both 2 3/4 inch barrels, let alone 3 inch compatability. My question before I scrap to bigger barrel is would any one know the forward thrust generated on barrel. Coud I affix a washer shaped metal to chamber end by cold method.Ie jb weld. or have to weld a ring around chamber to have material to lath off to make rim. I am concerned about heat needed to weld or braze would mess with temper/and or warping. Thoughts appreciated for this fix.
P. S. if I am hijacking please let me know and I will start a new thread.
Thanks Don.

[quickdtoo]

Forward thrust would be the same as bolt or breech thrust, that can be calculated using the formula in the link below.

Tim

http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/custom_actions/bolt_lug_strength.htm

Bolt Thrust

Bolt thrust is easy to calculate. Only two inputs are required. They are peak chamber pressure in PSI and as mentioned, the inside area of the case head that the gas pressure can work on. The formula then is:

THRUST=AREA*CPSI Where:

AREA=3.1416*(HS/2)^2

HS=the diameter of the inside of the case head.

[wanderer]

First off, I do not want to offend anyone. Secondly, I am not a gunsmith, nor do I play one on TV. However, I am a trained machinist and an engineering student. I have both formal training and hands on experience, so don't give me any nonsense about sitting behind a desk. I have paid my college tuition with what I earn working in a machine shop.

That being said, the comments regarding safety are certainly logical. As you all know, when you fire a round, the cartridge case pushes back on the frame. If the force that is exerted on the frame is not resolved, the gun will fly apart. That is why the barrel/frame lockup is important. In the case of the Handi, when force is exerted on the frame's breech face, the pivot pin exerts the same force on the barrel under lug. Because the forward thrust on the barrel is the same as the backward thrust on the under lug, the forces are resolved and things stay together, as long as the under lug is securely attached to the barrel. If the barrel is not securely attached to the under lug, things come apart because the forces cannot be resolved.

In the case of a stubbed barrel, the stub effectively functions as an under lug, so the barrel blank must be attached securely to the stub. Basically, when you shoot, the force tries to pull the barrel blank out of the stub.

Another example: In most common bolt action rifles the barrel is threaded to the receiver. Those threads are what ultimately bear the load. The locking lugs merely transfer the force from the bolt to the receiver. Properly cut threads are surprisingly strong.

As far as this goes, well, you can make up your own mind, but think of it this way: With a .357 running at about 35ksi, you have about 3500 lbs of force trying to pull the barrel and stub apart, according to the formulas Tim posted above (those formulas are actually simplified, but they are a good approximation). It's up to you whether you feel that whatever method you used is good enough. My personal opinion, which by the way is based on fundamental engineering principals such as statics, dynamics, and mechanics of materials, is that this method is POTENTIALLY unsafe and I would not recommend it.

[maglvr44]

First off, I do not want to offend anyone. Secondly, I am not a gunsmith, nor do I play one on TV. However, I am a trained machinist and an engineering student. I have both formal training and hands on experience, so don't give me any nonsense about sitting behind a desk. I have paid my college tuition with what I earn working in a machine shop.

That being said, the comments regarding safety are certainly logical. As you all know, when you fire a round, the cartridge case pushes back on the frame. If the force that is exerted on the frame is not resolved, the gun will fly apart. That is why the barrel/frame lockup is important. In the case of the Handi, when force is exerted on the frame's breech face, the pivot pin exerts the same force on the barrel under lug. Because the forward thrust on the barrel is the same as the backward thrust on the under lug, the forces are resolved and things stay together, as long as the under lug is securely attached to the barrel. If the barrel is not securely attached to the under lug, things come apart because the forces cannot be resolved.

In the case of a stubbed barrel, the stub effectively functions as an under lug, so the barrel blank must be attached securely to the stub. Basically, when you shoot, the force tries to pull the barrel blank out of the stub.

Another example: In most common bolt action rifles the barrel is threaded to the receiver. Those threads are what ultimately bear the load. The locking lugs merely transfer the force from the bolt to the receiver. Properly cut threads are surprisingly strong.

As far as this goes, well, you can make up your own mind, but think of it this way: With a .357 running at about 35ksi, you have about 3500 lbs of force trying to pull the barrel and stub apart, according to the formulas Tim posted above (those formulas are actually simplified, but they are a good approximation). It's up to you whether you feel that whatever method you used is good enough. My personal opinion, which by the way is based on fundamental engineering principals such as statics, dynamics, and mechanics of materials, is that this method is POTENTIALLY unsafe and I would not recommend it.

And yet another "opinion" with no proof or even MENTION of a weak link. apparently if it has no threads it can't possibly work! Someone should have told Smith and Wesson that when they stopped threading barrels and frames in the 80's.

[mtbugle]

Quick, thanks for the forward thrust equal to rear thrust answer.  I should have been more specefic.  How much forward thrust felt by the barrel?  In a strait walled case the barrel will only feel the energy exerted to deform the bullet to the barrel dimentions and then the friction from the bullet going down the riflings. A significant amount of the pressure felt against the bolt side is not felt in front as it is used for accellerating the bullet.  In a bottle necked cartridge the area of the shoulder would also be part of forward thrust plus thebullet effects on the barrel.
Thanks DOn.

[quickdtoo]

I'm not an engineer or physics guru, but to my way of thinking and from reading Marshall Stanton's thoughts at Shooter's Forum, straight walled cases have less backthrust than bottlenecked cases, whether that's actually true I don't know, but his work with and the many that use 30-30 brass in the 375 Win leads me to believe there's some truth to that line of thinking.

Tim

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=2137&highlight=.375+win

You are right! *The case walls on either the .38-55 or .30-30 are thinner, hence the increased case capacity! *However, there isn't the slightest hazard using this brass in your .375 Winchester. * Keep in mind that the .375 Winchester is a straight walled case, and most of it's stress during the firing cycle is outward, against the case walls... not back against the bolt face! *(P.O. Ackley did exhaustive studies on this phenomonon and conclusively proved the point) *Where you might get into trouble with the thinner case is if there was a significant amount of back-thrust against the breech-bolt, and then the thinner web of the case head could possibly cause a rupture if there was enough rearward movement of the case from perhaps excessive head-space.  However since this is a straight-walled case, not a tapered bottle-neck design, we don't have that back-thrust against the bolt-face.   Consequently the forces of physics are working in our favor when utilizing a brass case of thinner construction, especially when we look at the following contributing factors entered into the equation.

I'm not alone in the practice of using this brass, and others such as Paco Kelley will advise the same. *You can get one of two results:

The same velocity load as with standard .375 Win brass, but with lower pressures.

Or, a higher velocity load as compared to standard .375 Win brass, but with equal pressures.

I might also interject that todays brass is far higher quality due to advances in metallurgy than it was in 1894-96 when the .30-30 and .32 Special were conceived, thus necessary brass thickness then and now are somewhat different to contain equal pressures. * All this being said, the .30-30 case of the 1990's will withstand more pressure, more reliably than the same case made even 70 years ago, due to our more refined and perfected metalurgical sciences.

The truth is that the .375 Win Brass case is over-engineered for its intended purpose. * Keep in mind that it was conceived in a litigation oriented product development climate... in other words; * make that sucker lawyer proof! * Forget ballistic engineering and balancing case capacity, necessary strength and cartridge design.... first make it litigatiion proof, then worry about making it shoot!

Well, I better stop before I step up on a real-life soap-box!

Hope this helps!

God Bless,

Marshall

[mtbugle]

I am sure that the backthrust is as mentioned many times simply pressure times inside surface area of bottom to case. Static dynamics. The forward thrust felt by the barrel is different due to the dynamics of moving froward surface area and that surface area is not affixed to the barrel. By the way Quick have you done anymore experimenting with your barrel insert?

[quickdtoo]

No I haven't, checking on a membership at the local club, they capped their membership and aren't taking members, used to shoot as a daily member during the week, but they only allow daily members on Sundays now, too many clowns on Sunday for me to join the circus, so it may be a while until I shoot again.

Tim

[wanderer]

I am sure that the backthrust is as mentioned many times simply pressure times inside surface area of bottom to case. Static dynamics. The forward thrust felt by the barrel is different due to the dynamics of moving froward surface area and that surface area is not affixed to the barrel. By the way Quick have you done anymore experimenting with your barrel insert?

You are exactly right, the forward force is actually less than the back thrust-that's why guns recoil. When I said that the formulas were simplified, that's one of the things that is left out. But finding data to accurately use more sophisticated formulas is difficult and assuming that the forward thrust is equal to back thrust means that you have a factor of safety. I should have mentioned that I was using these assumptions in my first post. It was a case of where I knew what I was thinking, but I didn't write what I was thinking. My apologies. Now, I still feel that using these assumptions and formulas as a guide for design is a good idea because if you get a plugged barrel for one reason or another, the forward force increases.


maglvr44, my apologies, I did not make my self clear enough and I left out somethings that such as:

1. I didn't want it to sound like it can't work, the first part of my post was intended to basically say that there are some substantial forces that need to be dealt with. In other words, I was just trying to make sure that the other folks who do this respect the forces involved.

2. The reason why I didn't mention a weak link is that I am not confident there is a weak link. Well, let me say that another way: I think the stub to barrel attachment is a weak link, but for small cartridges it's probably good enough if done carefully. I hope you understand what I'm trying to say. Basically, that's why I said it was up to you. With blue prints and accurately machined parts, strengths can be easily calculated. When using improvised methods, it is important that the builder can determine whether or not it's safe.

3. The reason why I don't recommend this method is basically because the "what if" issue. You said that you carefully fitted parts, but there is no guarantee that the next guy will do the same. I would hate to see someone get hurt and I would especially hate to see someone get hurt after I gave a recommendation. I guess what I'm really trying to say here is that I'm not saying don't do it, but I'm not saying do it either.

Again, my apologies, I wrote my last post in a hurry and failed to convey my thoughts well.

[Hammerspur]

Off Topic, but Dweezil still hoping to see your vertical lathe.

If it IS chambered and you need to reduce the barrel OD without a lathe, it CAN be done with a decent size drill press as long as the distance between the press chuck and the baseplate is at least an inch longer than your barrel.  In about 2 hours and $15 in specialized tooling, you can turn most drill presses into a rudimentary vertical lathe.  I've turned a couple shorter barrels this way.  Of course, you can't thread  but you can do basic turning.
Tool list: Drill press. Plumb bob with string. All thread with lock nuts.  Electrical tape.  1 fired case. Assorted drill bits. Bearing/race with ID size of all thread.  Decent calipers.  Large metal file.  Hacksaw. Imagination.

See if you can figure it out.

When I do my next one, I'll take photos if someone more experienced here knows how to post them.

Here's another pic of mine... not a barrel but a long workpiece, motorcycle muffler getting a brushed finish:

[Dweezil]

Mine is similar...but yours looks a bit more sophisticated.  Sorry...I've been tied up in home renovation.  Finishing concrete countertops and building a backyard play structure for my 6 year old. Gun projects had to take a back burner.  Gotta keep the wife happy.

[petemi]

No I haven't, checking on a membership at the local club, they capped their membership and aren't taking members, used to shoot as a daily member during the week, but they only allow daily members on Sundays now, too many clowns on Sunday for me to join the circus, so it may be a while until I shoot again.

Tim

Tim, that's what I hate about crowded society.  I probably could have gotten wealthy living in the urban sprawl, but I chose to earn less and live where I wanted.  It's a heck of a long ride, but my range is open to you any time you can get here, and that goes for the rest of youze guys,  Anything you want to shoot.......bring your cannons if you want.....that'd be a blast!!!  Certainly wake up the neighbors!

Pete

[quickdtoo]

I have an alternate plan Pete, after turkey season I plan on heading up to our deer/turkey hunting area which is on timber company land, and setting up a couple portable shooting tables to spend the day shooting, it will cost about the same for gas as spending a day at the nice range, but I won't have any interruptions or have to wait for anyone else to check their target every few minutes cuz they don't have a spotting scope!! I already have one shooting table, got the wood, brackets and legs for another, by the first of June it will be ready to go!

Tim

[petemi]

Dere ya go grandpa, solitude reigns supreme   Do it!! Enjoy it!!  No AK nuts to deal with.

Pete

[Dweezil]

Maglvr44,
When you did you Handi did you you go with "interference fit" or just close fit? My shotgun barrel mic's at .729 ID and I've got the .357 BBL turned down to .731 forward of the chamber area as I'm debating how much more I want to turn it down. Did you go to about .727-8 with the inner barrel OD?

[billy_56081]

I just made one just like it, thanks for the inspiration. I used 2 ton epoxy to glue it in then put 4 tack wels around the front of the stub. I will post picks soon. Need to drill and tap it soon, and fire for accuracy.


Here is another thing I tried and wouldn't recomend it to test the forward thrust. without it being glued or welded, I held the barrel in the stub and fired it with a 38 special hand load. No forward thrust at all and I still have my fingers.


I did use a 357 ejector. I call it my 357 superlight. Mine fit right in the 12 gage chamber without turning.

[shaner]

this has been a fun  post to watch come alive you did good man!!!!!!

[Oldshooter]

Yes, very good thread, and good Idea! Nice looking shooter also. Some how I missed the beginning but the thread was very interesting as it went!

[billy_56081]

Not the best pictures from my phone but it gives the idea. Thanks again for the inspiration.

[gatersb]

Hey man sounds like you could make a pretty good living at this kind of stuff and if you could do it for less than 300 bucks it would sell. I would love one in 44 special and perhaps the 32 S&W Long just for grins but have no tech. ability and a lot of ideas ( a gunsmiths bread and butter )    Love the thread keep us updated

[maglvr44]

Not the best pictures from my phone but it gives the idea. Thanks again for the inspiration.

You are quite welcome for the inspiration! I knew somebody else would want to give it a try if there was a simple way. looks like you have a nice shooter there! those barrels are incredibly accurate. Congrats & Good hunting!!!

[billy_56081]

Thanks maglvr. I had to do this after seeing how simple it was. And to Larry, I don't think you have to worry about sitting next to him or I on the bench, that barrel aint going anywhere. Even with glue alone it will stay in place.

[maglvr44]

I would love one in 44 special and perhaps the 32 S&W Long just for grins but have no tech. ability and a lot of ideas

You know...... As long as we are still breathing...It's never too late to pick up another hobby! if you have the will and the want-to, that's 99% of the battle, come on, jump right in, the water is fine!
I have a 44spl built on a old proof tested Savage 94 12ga. it is a tack driver also, I feed it 16gr. of Lil-Gun under a 250gr. hardcast Keith, it leaves the barrel around 1300fps, pretty much like a 44mag revolver round. My H&R Handi 44spl will be done shortly, it has been test fired and now just needs some sights, it has been on the bench for months, once the perch and bass started hitting it took the back seat, now it's hunting season again!
Happy tinkering!!

[Fred M]

Whats being done sounds ok, looks ok, works ok but that is not my idea of how guns should be done. This is bush league at its very best. It reminds me how guns are made in the Kyper pass, yes they shoot and kill but your health is in jeopardy never the less.

[billy_56081]

Fred can you give us the physics of the danger in this stubbing project? Is there any knowledge behind your statement or just an asumption?

[maglvr44]

Whats being done sounds ok, looks ok, works ok but that is not my idea of how guns should be done. This is bush league at its very best. It reminds me how guns are made in the Kyper pass, yes they shoot and kill but your health is in jeopardy never the less.

If you understood, you'd understand

[Dweezil]

FredM,
...of course your life's in jeopardy just LIVING in the Khyber Pass...probably more so without the homebuilt weapons. Everything is relative.   Basic infantry logic: "If it's stupid and it works...it's not stupid." I've built my share of AK's in the garage...which function flawlessly after thousands of rounds and am half done with this project.  Not worried.  The laws of physics still apply, and, done the way maglvr did, this build is just as safe as a threaded stub, perhaps more so, as the recoil impulse will push the interior barrel even tighter into the shotgun stub. If you trust yourself to change the brake pads and  rotors on your car, you can do this safely...and more lives are potentially at stake with a brake job.  But, yeah, I suppose you could say it's "bush league."  In fact, that's kind of the point...but we're not making these for other folks...only ourselves.  BTW, I don't do brakes for other folks either.