Author Topic: Bellm Encore/ProHunter Tune Up Kit  (Read 3403 times)

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Offline spy231

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Bellm Encore/ProHunter Tune Up Kit
« on: December 28, 2007, 10:50:06 AM »
http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/item.php?pid=1073&cid=367

Has anybody ordered one of these? If this has already been posted to death I am sorry. I have a factory encore and I am about to start reloading and I want to get the most accuracy out of my encore.

Anybody have any opinions?

Offline spy231

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Re: (censored word) Encore/ProHunter Tune Up Kit
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2007, 10:51:11 AM »
Sorry about the censored stuff.......
The kit includes:
1x Oversize Hinge Pin
51# Hammer Spring
#3 sear/trigger spring, approx. 2 1/2 to 3 pound pull weight
Our Trigger/Sear Spring Installation Pliers
Feeler Gauge Set
Headspace Indicator Base
Economy grade 1" dial indicator
6 hardened, stainless steel Headspace Shims sized for the Encore/ProHunter
1 Heavy Duty Locking bolt spring
1- 3/32" pin punch

for $100..........is it worth it?

Offline Davemuzz

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Re: (censored word) Encore/ProHunter Tune Up Kit
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2007, 11:17:48 AM »
Save your money. Get a trigger job if your trigger pull is too heavy or has creep. That's probably the best thing you can do to shrink your groups.....that and find the bullet\powder combo that works the best.

MHO

Dave

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Re: (censored word) Encore/ProHunter Tune Up Kit
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2007, 06:40:03 PM »
Much of it will do more harm than good. No it's NOT worth it and wouldn't be at 25% of that price.


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Offline spy231

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Re: (censored word) Encore/ProHunter Tune Up Kit
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2007, 12:18:11 AM »
Thanks guys. I like my encore and just wanted to get the most accuracy that I could out of it.

Offline David D.

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Re: (censored word) Encore/ProHunter Tune Up Kit
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2007, 02:42:28 AM »
spy231

There are a lot of ways to improve your accuracy. If you are a reloader finding the bullet powder load combo your encore likes is the best start. Correct headspace is very important in Encores and Contenders.  For most my Tenders and Encores I only neck size after fireforming the brass.

A good fitting forearm so it doesn't put undue pressure on the barrel is another. Below is a cheap way to do that. Do not over tighten the forearm screws. Sand the channel out and glue in small rubber resting pads for the barrel making for as little forearm contact as possible.



Trigger jobs are another way. Do search on the web and you will find instructions on how to do your own. If not comfortable in doing your own there are many creditable people who can. Chaning to a lighter trigger spring will lower the trigger pull. Good or bad I havent decided yet but so far havent had one fail on me. Most of the things on that list I would stay away from.
Dave D.

Offline spy231

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Re: (censored word) Encore/ProHunter Tune Up Kit
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2007, 04:02:30 AM »

Correct headspace is very important in Encores and Contenders. 


I just started reloading.......RCBS kit has not even arrived yet (it is still in the mail). How do I figure out the correct headspace? That is one of the things he was talking about that the kit included. It was a little device he sales for $20 that figures correct headspace so you dont have any trial and error. Sorry guys......I am really new to working on my own guns and reloading. I am trying not to be so dependent on gunsmiths when it is little easy things!

Offline skb2706

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Re: (censored word) Encore/ProHunter Tune Up Kit
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2007, 08:03:38 AM »
Its your money but being cheap (I am cheap) I would research every possible source of good information, tips, loading and shooting techniques first. Shoot the gun and employ these ideas long before I just tossed out $100. As far as "the censored one" is concerned he has some good ideas about loading and headspace but I have not found any need to spend money to use those ideas.

Until you actually shoot the gun why would you spend any money beyond what is required to see what you got.

Offline Varmint Hunter

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Re: (censored word) Encore/ProHunter Tune Up Kit
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2007, 08:50:11 AM »
There are lots of ways to tweak accuracy from different types of actions/rifles. Frankly, I think some of the accurizing ideas and parts for the Encore seem to make a lot of sense depending on just how far you're interested in going to obtain the utmost in accuracy. Would another .25 MOA reduction in group size matter in a hunting rifle? Only you can decide that.

I just received a new ProHunter the other day. The trigger pull was not smooth and broke at 5.5 lbs. I have already sent the receiver out for a quality trigger job. After that, I'll play it by ear. If the rifle shoots acceptably then I'll  just shoot it and enjoy it. If not, I'll consider some of the enhancements that can improve accuracy. The forearm attachment is likely to be one of the first considerations.

All in all, there are much better actions for squeeking out the last bit of accuracy. I consider the Encore to be a moderately accurate rifle and I am not expecting too much from it. However, the trigger was a MUST DO item for me.


Offline Davemuzz

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Re: (censored word) Encore/ProHunter Tune Up Kit
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2007, 10:42:11 AM »
Oh yeah....floating the forearm. If you are having not so good groups, then you should consider floating your forearm. I do mine but I prefer metal as opposed to rubber. That way, even if you torque to a different inch\lb every time you mount the forearm, you will still have the same pressure on the barrel with a metal spacer as opposed to a rubber one. But...that's just my opinion. My opinion and $1.50 will get you a coffee at the local gas station.

Here are some pic's of my ProHunter forearm float:





Offline David D.

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Re: (censored word) Encore/ProHunter Tune Up Kit
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2007, 07:11:18 AM »
Not one thing again the metal pillar bed method, it does work. But no matter which method wouldn't more torque on the screw amount to more pressure on the barrel??
Dave D.

Offline Davemuzz

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Re: (censored word) Encore/ProHunter Tune Up Kit
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2007, 07:30:47 AM »
Not one thing again the metal pillar bed method, it does work. But no matter which method wouldn't more torque on the screw amount to more pressure on the barrel??

Dave,

I'm no engineer, but I guess what I'm sayin is with the metal, I may get the screw tight, and then the screw may get 1\4 turn one way or the other on the next barrel mount. Now, with a rubber spacer...at least the one's that I have tried....the screw turn can go a full turn or even more.

So, what I am saying is that from my tiny little part of the world, in my experience using rubber as the spacer.....the groups have changed between mounts of the barrel. This hasn't occurred with metal spacers. Now, it may very well be that I'm using the "wrong" kind of rubber I honestly don't know. But I do know that when I use metal, I don't have any problems.

Dave

Offline nomosendero

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Re: (censored word) Encore/ProHunter Tune Up Kit
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2007, 07:34:59 AM »
Not one thing again the metal pillar bed method, it does work. But no matter which method wouldn't more torque on the screw amount to more pressure on the barrel??

Well, that is something to think about & a good point. I know it is good to tighten the action screws the same amt. for a bolt gun, free floated or not, different torque settings can change things, even with a skim bedded HS or a pillar bedded stock  as well. So it makes sense that diff. torque setting for the Encore forend would make a diff. too, another good reason to have a torque wrench.

Dave, is this the method you used on your good shooting Encores previously mentioned? I looks to be cheap, fast & simple.
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Offline Davemuzz

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Re: (censored word) Encore/ProHunter Tune Up Kit
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2007, 07:59:15 AM »
Dave, is this the method you used on your good shooting Encores previously mentioned? I looks to be cheap, fast & simple.

Nomo, Yes. The pics that I have posted are from the forearm of my ProHunter.  Actually, I took a "spacer" from I believe it was an Uncle Mikes T\C sling kit, (Very similar to the spacer that is on the top screw in this kit at Midway http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=771536&t=11082005 ) I cut the spacer in half, then with a Dremmel, I coutoured the spacer to the ProHunter barrel (well....as close as I could get it).

And yes....it is cheap and easy. In fact what I don't get about T\C is this is so cheap 'n easy I don't understand why they don't do stuff like this at the factory and just tac on an X-tra $10 or $20 to the gun price. But hey.....not all things on this earth are suppose to make sense.

There is a good 1\8" of space between the forearm and the barrel. But I think that's a good thing as I never have to guess if my barrel is touching the forearm. The floating dramatically shrank the groups of my .243. I mean.....to the point where I would never part with the barrel!!!!!

Dave

Offline nomosendero

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Re: (censored word) Encore/ProHunter Tune Up Kit
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2007, 08:13:59 AM »
I meant the other Dave, but your info is good also, in fact I was going to ask you next & weigh the differences for my needs, thanks!
You will not make peace with the Bluecoats, you are free to go.

Offline David D.

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Re: (censored word) Encore/ProHunter Tune Up Kit
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2007, 09:05:36 AM »
FAST, CHEAP, SIMPLE and it does work. The rubber came from Lowes in a 6X6 sheet. It is not a hard rubber. Not being hard I personally think it is forgiving of not getting the exact same torque on the mounting screws, but I do try and install at an even pressure just enough to hold the forearm. If it were a hard rubber I think screw torque would be more critical. I use this method on all my forearms for the Encores, rifle or pistols. I am not saying this is better than other ways. But it works well for me.  ;D
Dave D.

Offline kudzu

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Re: (censored word) Encore/ProHunter Tune Up Kit
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2007, 09:32:46 AM »
I would have to second the "Shoot First" advice. Most people think that if they had to do something to one gun, that they will have to do it for every gun thereafter. Shoot the thing first and then access the situation and go from there. My pro hunter is all factory except for a lighter trigger spring.
I am getting 1 1/2'' and under from my 280 and 25-06 barrels at 300 yrds. (both are shooting fac. Fed. Fusion ammo (good stuff) ). My 22-250 barrel is still around 2'' at 300 using factory Rem 50gr accutips.


If it ain't broke, don't break it, DM

Offline David D.

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Re: (censored word) Encore/ProHunter Tune Up Kit
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2007, 09:58:17 AM »
That's good advice but not the way I like to do it. I buy a new frame the first thing I do is work the trigger until i get it the way I want it determined by what I will be using this frame for. For hunting I like a little heavier trigger than for a bench toy. I reload for all I have so by fitting the forearm in a fashion that works well for my others comes before load development. By taking out as many variables as I can before load-D I think is going to same me money and time in the long run. This is just my opinion and works for me. I have as much fun tinkering with my TC's as I do shooting them.
Dave D.

Offline Davemuzz

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Re: (censored word) Encore/ProHunter Tune Up Kit
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2007, 12:33:34 PM »
By taking out as many variables as I can before load-D I think is going to same me money and time in the long run.

I agree with Dave. If you have a pretty good idea from past experience that the brand of gun is going to perform better if you do certain "modifications" to it, then this will go a long way to eliminate additional variables in load development.

Dave

Offline sweetwyominghome

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Re: (censored word) Encore/ProHunter Tune Up Kit
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2007, 02:31:09 PM »
As others have already touched upon, a good trigger is critical to getting the best possible groups -- and you won't find "good" on any trigger that comes directly from the TC factory.

As to the other items, I can tell you this: most (not all, however) of my rigs do have a 1x hinge pin, and that's because I am a stickler for precision. As an example, my 7mm Bullberry shot beautifully when I first got it -- and the groups would make most shooters drool with envy. But the 1x hinge pin made it EVEN BETTER. For some, the improvement would not be worthwhile; to me, it is.

But every frame/barrel combo will not necessarily benefit from the pin. Lastly, you do have to exercise common sense. If you begin to insert the pin according to instructions and see that it will take excessive force, STOP. You don't need the pin! I know of at least one individual who beat his frame to death and then blamed the maker of the pin.

Also, I had a factory Encore 6.5x55 barrel that was picky about its loads and would tend to shift POI from day to day. Getting rid of the rynite forend and adding -- you guessed it -- a 1x hinge pin made all the difference in the world. In fact, some loads that I discarded during development now became keepers.

But back to the kits: the most vocal opponents, as a rule, are those with the least amount of experience, and they'll never substantiate their disdain with anything concrete. Whether it's from a simple lack of understanding the basic concepts of the TC system or fear of the unknown, some folks just won't open their minds to anything different.

This is much like the Bergara barrel debate.

In short, the best advice I can give you is this: Take everything you read with a grain of salt and then make up your own mind.

Offline nomosendero

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Re: (censored word) Encore/ProHunter Tune Up Kit
« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2007, 02:45:00 PM »
Thanks Dave & Dave for the info!!
You will not make peace with the Bluecoats, you are free to go.

Offline David D.

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Re: (censored word) Encore/ProHunter Tune Up Kit
« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2007, 04:23:01 PM »
Thanks Dave & Dave for the info!!



You are more than welcome!!!!!!! ;D
Dave D.

Offline Keith L

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Re: (censored word) Encore/ProHunter Tune Up Kit
« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2007, 07:12:01 PM »
"As others have already touched upon, a good trigger is critical to getting the best possible groups -- and you won't find "good" on any trigger that comes directly from the TC factory. "

You are half right.  A good trigger is critical.  My three G2s all had acceptable triggers from the factory and two of them were quite good.  I define good as zero creep, crisp break and 2-3 pounds.  Mine are hunting guns and that for me is fine.  If you like them lighter then you can go lighter if you want.
"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."  Benjamin Franklin

Offline David D.

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Re: (censored word) Encore/ProHunter Tune Up Kit
« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2007, 02:32:35 AM »
As others have already touched upon, a good trigger is critical to getting the best possible groups -- and you won't find "good" on any trigger that comes directly from the TC factory.

I guess sometimes its just your day. I do have one Encore frame that has never had the trigger touch. I just like the way this one felt and broke. Its kind of like a 2 stage trigger you start to squeeze the trigger it reaches a point that you feel, and you can hold there, knowing  just a little more squeeze and it breaks over.
Dave D.

Offline rks1949

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Re: (censored word) Encore/ProHunter Tune Up Kit
« Reply #24 on: December 31, 2007, 03:06:49 AM »
As far as "floating the barrel" it isn't going to happen! The barrel either has screws,or pillars to connect it to the forearm. For a barrel to be "free floated" it has Nothing touching the barrel at all,to the receiver,or bedding block. That being said,I have always "relieved" the forearms on my contenders,and encores. Some it improved,some it didn't make any real difference in accuracy. None have shot worse,by doing it. The trigger is another story. If you are shooting at P-Dogs at 400yds,the difference between a good trigger,and a so so trigger,will be evident very quick. If you are shooting at deer,or bigger game a 3-4 lb. trigger won't be noticed as much. I agree with the above post,why T/C doesn't build this into their forearms is beyond me. All they would have to do is "leave a little extra material where the screws attach to the barrel" and it would be done. Ron       
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Re: (censored word) Encore/ProHunter Tune Up Kit
« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2007, 03:51:00 AM »
Quote
But back to the kits: the most vocal opponents, as a rule, are those with the least amount of experience, and they'll never substantiate their disdain with anything concrete. Whether it's from a simple lack of understanding the basic concepts of the TC system or fear of the unknown, some folks just won't open their minds to anything different.

Simply NOT true. Several of us on here have tested them and documented our results with the over size pins. I posted the results of my testing of them many years ago. In all cases using several frames and many barrels I found ZERO improvement and in several cases it actually hurt accuracy going to the over size pin. In fact the one old frame I had that would have seemed to have needed it the most actually was the most accurate over all of all the several frames I owned mostly I think because it had the best trigger. It was the one I had used extensively in competition for years and had many tens of thousands of rounds fired with it.

That frame was so loose it was quite easy to move the barrel when open and the pin would actually fall out on its own if you turned it sideways to allow it to free fall. But that frame shot the single smallest 100 yard group I've ever shot with a TC even that loose. When the over size pin was used it shot far worse than with the stock pin.

I've seen at least a half dozen others document their test results here. All indicated the same. So if you like it use it but don't BS us that it's a GOD send to TCs cuz it's just plain not. If it helped one or more of your frames I'm happy for you but most who've tried it and posted here have had just the oppose results.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!

Offline rks1949

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Re: (censored word) Encore/ProHunter Tune Up Kit
« Reply #26 on: December 31, 2007, 04:13:43 AM »
Quote
But back to the kits: the most vocal opponents, as a rule, are those with the least amount of experience, and they'll never substantiate their disdain with anything concrete. Whether it's from a simple lack of understanding the basic concepts of the TC system or fear of the unknown, some folks just won't open their minds to anything different.

Simply NOT true. Several of us on here have tested them and documented our results with the over size pins. I posted the results of my testing of them many years ago. In all cases using several frames and many barrels I found ZERO improvement and in several cases it actually hurt accuracy going to the over size pin. In fact the one old frame I had that would have seemed to have needed it the most actually was the most accurate over all of all the several frames I owned mostly I think because it had the best trigger. It was the one I had used extensively in competition for years and had many tens of thousands of rounds fired with it.

That frame was so loose it was quite easy to move the barrel when open and the pin would actually fall out on its own if you turned it sideways to allow it to free fall. But that frame shot the single smallest 100 yard group I've ever shot with a TC even that loose. When the over size pin was used it shot far worse than with the stock pin.

I've seen at least a half dozen others document their test results here. All indicated the same. So if you like it use it but don't BS us that it's a GOD send to TCs cuz it's just plain not. If it helped one or more of your frames I'm happy for you but most who've tried it and posted here have had just the oppose results.
   Absolutly Correct! The barrel has to come into battery the same every time! The hinge pin has two functions,to attach the barrel to the action,and to keep the barrel from falling off,while opening the action. That's it! Ron
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Offline David D.

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Re: (censored word) Encore/ProHunter Tune Up Kit
« Reply #27 on: December 31, 2007, 07:15:36 AM »
I am guilty of trying an oversize pin. I saw no improvement in accuracy. It did hurt the resell as far as I am concerned. I for one will not buy a used frame or barrel if I know an oversize pin has been tapped, beat , pounded or otherwise been put in it. And I know for a fact that there are a lot more feel the same as I do.
Dave D.

Offline Davemuzz

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Re: (censored word) Encore/ProHunter Tune Up Kit
« Reply #28 on: December 31, 2007, 08:44:43 AM »
I meant the other Dave, but your info is good also, in fact I was going to ask you next & weigh the differences for my needs, thanks!

I'm crushed that you didn't think my info was superior. But hey, that happens.

By the way, I think that any information that comes from anyone named "Dave" is always correct and should never be questioned. In fact, all rules and decisions should be made by people named "Dave" and again, never be question.

MHO

Dave

Offline Keith L

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Re: (censored word) Encore/ProHunter Tune Up Kit
« Reply #29 on: December 31, 2007, 10:04:43 AM »
To be known from now on as the "Dave rule."
"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."  Benjamin Franklin