I could use a little advice from experienced bear hunters

[teddy12b]

I'm thinking about getting a bear hunting rifle.  This last season I was up in Ontario and I was hunting with my 30-30.  It's not that I don't believe in the 30-30, but I wouldn't mind trying something a little bigger diameter with heavier bullets.  I'll admit that it's more for me just to feel better about having a bigger bullet.

I've got a Puma 44 mag, and some 320gr grizzly ammo but it's stainless steel and I'm still not too confident with it's accuracy.  I've been kicking around picking up a 1895 45/70 and putting a peep sight on it.  I'm going to see what happens with "after holidays" sales.  I've always kind of wanted a 1895 45/70 so that's another plus.

For hunting baited black bear at those short ranges would it even matter though?  With a 30-30, 44 mag, or a 45-70 at a "stones throw" distance is there really much difference in what they can do? 

[dabigmoose]

Teddy
 I would use any of them with  good ammo and theres plenty of that around. Black Bear are not that hard to kill just take your time and place your shot. .
You should learn about bear anatomy and learn to size them especially hunting with bait use the barrel or other objects to compare with the Bear. If ya really want a 45-70 get one they are geat rifles and have other uses too.
Dabigmoose

[teddy12b]

My last hunting trip I had looked at several different pictures of a bears vital area and it looked to me like the heart was lower in the body than on a deer and that's where I thought I was aiming.  I just didn't know how long a bears hair could be at the time and my bullet went right through hair. 

I've debated on a 45-70 before, but it's hard to justify when inside 100yards it won't do anything a 30-30 or 12ga slug won't do.  The ammo isn't exactly cheap either.  At least with my 30-30 I can still find ammo for $10 per box.  But there is still something to be said for that big heavy bullet.

[Varmint Hunter]

First off let me say that black bears are no harder to kill than whitetails of equal weight. Bears of all sizes may have a big scary demeanor but Black Bears are just not hard to kill. Put almost any bullet through both lungs and the gig is up every time. With typical shot ranging from 20 yds - 40 yds, that's not too difficult.

All of your choices are fine for black bears. Funny but when I was in Canada last year, hunting average size black bears, the guide was very concerned that I was only using a 44 mag Ruger carbine even with the 300gr XTP bullets that I was shooting. When all the shooters in the camp went to the range before the hunt, the little Ruger carbine out-shot every other big-ass, scope sighted, bear smashing rifle that was brought to the line, but the guide still thought that I was under gunned. Some people just don't have a clue. The funny thing is that if I had a 44 mag handgun they would have all thought that it was plenty of gun.

Sounds like you just need a reason to buy a 45-70. Soooo - I think that is a PERFECT bear cartridge and that you should definitely get one before your next hunt. I'm thinking of getting a 45-70 barrel for my Encore just in case the bear spits out the 300gr XTP's from my 44.    It's either that or maybe I just want one for the fun of it.

[blackbear]

 The 45-70 is excellent for hunting Black Bear over bait .

[The Gamemaster]

I'm thinking about getting a bear hunting rifle.  This last season I was up in Ontario and I was hunting with my 30-30.  It's not that I don't believe in the 30-30, but I wouldn't mind trying something a little bigger diameter with heavier bullets.  I'll admit that it's more for me just to feel better about having a bigger bullet.

I've got a Puma 44 mag, and some 320gr grizzly ammo but it's stainless steel and I'm still not too confident with it's accuracy.  I've been kicking around picking up a 1895 45/70 and putting a peep sight on it.  I'm going to see what happens with "after holidays" sales.  I've always kind of wanted a 1895 45/70 so that's another plus.

For hunting baited black bear at those short ranges would it even matter though?  With a 30-30, 44 mag, or a 45-70 at a "stones throw" distance is there really much difference in what they can do? 

Not be taken as a insult, but you would be better off using the 30/30 Winchester.

45/70 isn't what I would call a good bear caliber - unless you are only going to shoot a couple of yards.
Anything more than 100 yards with the 45/70 is iffy at best.  Peep sights went out with Out doors toilets.

44 Magnum isn't all that bad, but I would go with a Rifle chambered with the 44 instead of the pistol.

To be truthful, ALL I would use is my .300 Winchester Magnum.

1 angry, wounded bear - coming up the tree after me is all the more I would be able to take.

There is always a first time and not much room for a second time.

PLUS - Baiting is more like shooting fish in a barrel.  Not my kind of hunting!

[Cabin4]

I like your idea of the 44mag or 45-70 but I don't like the idea of the peep sight. For black bear I would only use a scope especially in Ontario. Your hunting over bait and that will most likely mean a shot in the late afternoon when light under the tree canopy is minimal. You will need a high quality scope for light gathering. I have a peep sight set for my 45-70 and would never think of using it for bear over bait. Again, its only about light. So even if its a no power scope, use it. I use a 1-4x20 Leupold on my 45-70 guide gun and have it 1 power for bear in the woods.

[teddy12b]

Gamemaster,
   I don't take it as an insult.  Everyone has a right to their opinion.  I had to argue the baiting issue with myself, but I don't see it as anything different than putting a worm on a hook, it still doesn't mean you'll get a fish. 

I've been on two baited bear hunts:  First one, two of us went to Maine for a week and neither of us saw a bear.  Second trip, three of us went to Ontario for a week and combined we saw 4 bears in the woods. 

I've been looking through all the reloading manuals I have about the strong action 1895 loads for the 45-70.  I'll be getting one eventually.  I have to now because I already got all the reloading supplies.

[m1aman]

no to rankle anyone but i think the 45-70 is a very accurate long range round. very deadly at 400-500 yards if you adjust for elevation.  not really needed for close range black bear shooting though. i shot blackies in nc with a marlin 30-30 and it seemed to be just perfect for the job.

[blackbear]

I'm thinking about getting a bear hunting rifle.  This last season I was up in Ontario and I was hunting with my 30-30.  It's not that I don't believe in the 30-30, but I wouldn't mind trying something a little bigger diameter with heavier bullets.  I'll admit that it's more for me just to feel better about having a bigger bullet.

I've got a Puma 44 mag, and some 320gr grizzly ammo but it's stainless steel and I'm still not too confident with it's accuracy.  I've been kicking around picking up a 1895 45/70 and putting a peep sight on it.  I'm going to see what happens with "after holidays" sales.  I've always kind of wanted a 1895 45/70 so that's another plus.

For hunting baited black bear at those short ranges would it even matter though?  With a 30-30, 44 mag, or a 45-70 at a "stones throw" distance is there really much difference in what they can do? 

Not be taken as a insult, but you would be better off using the 30/30 Winchester.

45/70 isn't what I would call a good bear caliber - unless you are only going to shoot a couple of yards.
Anything more than 100 yards with the 45/70 is iffy at best.  Peep sights went out with Out doors toilets.

44 Magnum isn't all that bad, but I would go with a Rifle chambered with the 44 instead of the pistol.

To be truthful, ALL I would use is my .300 Winchester Magnum.

1 angry, wounded bear - coming up the tree after me is all the more I would be able to take.

There is always a first time and not much room for a second time.

PLUS - Baiting is more like shooting fish in a barrel.  Not my kind of hunting!

Gamemaster, Have you ever hunted Black Bear?

[The Gamemaster]

Lot's of times!

I did it every year for 15 years and never got a bear.

I even guided some hunter's one year for bear - under fair chase conditions, when we got close to the bear ( within 200 yards) - the other hunters ran back to camp.

Living in the hardwoods of Pennsylvania, I worked as a logger for many years.

 I came across Lot's of bears in the woods.

I have even walked to within 30 feet of bears and never had a problem with them.

Once you start shooting at them, it seems like they get smart in a hurry. 

A lot smarter than a deer.

[blackbear]

Whenever someone says that hunting bear over bait is like shooting fish in a barrel, I know they have not done it. Statements like that are ammo for the P.E.T.A. anti-hunting groups.

[blackbear]

Teddy12b, It sounds like you are hooked on bear hunting too. I am lucky to be retired so I can spend more time doing Black Bear research. Actually my research is limited to Northern Minnesota where I live. There is a good article on gunblast.com about calibers and bullets for hunting Black Bear over bait. Most of my research is focused on mature Black Bear. You are making an excellent choice in the 45-70. It is important to create a large wound channel and exit hole. If you hunt thick stuff like I do, you want a fast killing shot and a blood trail in case the bear does not drop right away. Hunting bear over bait is in my opinion, very ethical. You can watch the bear (sometimes 30 minutes or more) to determine if it is a sow with cubs, large enough to shoot and long enough to take a clean killing shot. In Minnesota the success rate of bear hunters averages around 35%. Not exactly like fish in a barrel. Good luck.

[teddy12b]

Blackbear,
     It's very safe to say I'm hooked on black bear hunting.  I picked up the 1895 22" today and have just about everything I need to start reloading my own ammo for it.  I've been reading articles on Gunblast.com for some time now.  Actually there's an article written from a guy who used a 45/70 and shot his bear 6 times.  I had a hard time believing everything in that guys story, but it was an interesting read.  I plan on using the hottest loads I can safely fire and hopefully I'll be able to harvest a big bear next year.   I'm hoping to find a sweet spot using 405gr hard cast rounds with gas checks and get some good practice time in with it.  We'll see.

[blackbear]

Teddy12b, You are sure on the right track. You have an excellent rifle. I  track wounded bear for hunters and have seen some amazing things. A Black Bear can be one of the hardest animals to kill or one of the easiest. My family and I hunt mature boars 300 pounds plus. I have the time and we like watching bear at the bait sites so we just hold out for bigger bear. Last year my wife and son took 280 pound boars ( dressed weight) and I took a dry sow that was right on 300 pounds. Sorry, talking bears gets me going. Good luck.

[teddy12b]

I can hardly wait till bear season next year.  My wife and I are trying to start having kids so hopefully I might still be able to make it, but who knows what will happen.

[COR]

Two points...Baited bear are not like "shooting fish in a barrel" (anyone who has actually hunted them knows that) and the 45-70 is only as accurate as the shooter behind it.  I bet if you asked some buffalo who were around at the turn of the century they might also disagree about it's "long range effectiveness".  But I digress...
You made an excelleny choice in getting what I consider one of the mosy flexible cartridges out there.  Loaded with some Unique behind a 405gr Cast FP at 1000-1200fps it is a most pleasureable round as far as recoil goes and will kill black bear dead (That is not a theory).  I currently load mine with Hornady's excellent 350gr FP at 1900 fps out of my Guide Gun and I'd feel comfortable with that load against anything in North America. You have a vast selection of bullets and plenty of available brass.  I would like to pass on one piece of valuable advice that was given to me a while back, do not try for the "hottest loads", In a 45-70 a 350gr bullet at 2200 will not kill any better than the same bullet at 1800.  Strive for accuracy and don't worry about numbers until you have a load that shoots well...THEN chrono it and see what it's doing.  You will hear people argue that it shoots "flatter".  The difference in trajectory of 1800 and 2200 at hunting distances is so insignificant that it is laughable.  I hope you enjoy your Marlin as much as I enjoy mine.

[teddy12b]

You make a good point.  I will make an effort to find the most accurate, hot load I can find.  Hopefully that does the trick.

[Two Bears]

"Gamemaster,
   I don't take it as an insult.  Everyone has a right to their opinion.  I had to argue the baiting issue with myself, but I don't see it as anything different than putting a worm on a hook, it still doesn't mean you'll get a fish. "


Amen brother - thats the best way ive heard that described.!

[blackbear]

teddy12b, I don't have a 45-70 (yet) but my .450 Marlin shoots most accurately with Hornady Leverevolution 325gr. The Hornady 350gr Flat Point Interlock is the only other ammo I have tried so far in the .450 Marlin. My next firearm purchase will probably be a Magnum Research BFR 45-70 revolver, although the new double barrel 45-70 Spartan distributed by Remington (less than $600.00) sounds like fun. So many guns, so little $.

[jk3006]

"Sorry, talking bears gets me going."

"I can hardly wait till bear season next year."



Ok, stop it you guys.  Now you've got me all excited!  The wife's scowlin' at me, and we're hardly into the new year!!

[blackbear]

jk 30-06, Scowling wives are good to keep you on your toes for tracking bear all night.  Much rather deal with an angry bear. Where and how do you hunt?

[jk3006]

Where and how do you hunt?

I hunt around the Mora/Pine City area in no-quotta, but I haven't had success since 2004.  I'm really wanting a bear, and I'll pay someone to bait for me up north further if I can afford it.

I wouldn't mind paying someone $500-600 to provide me with some great hunting opportunities.  I can take care of my transportation, lodging, food on my own. 

[blackbear]

I am 2 or 3 hours North of your area. My daughter and her husband are bear guides up here ( beavertailent@yahoo.com). If you get" Knockout Hunting Adventures" on TV, they used my daughter and her husband as guides the last 2 years. I did not get drawn in 2007 so I am in need of a Black Bear fix myself. Years ago I hunted west of Mora, Ann Lake area? Not sure. That was deer hunting.

[Cabin4]

no to rankle anyone but i think the 45-70 is a very accurate long range round. very deadly at 400-500 yards if you adjust for elevation.  not really needed for close range black bear shooting though. i shot blackies in nc with a marlin 30-30 and it seemed to be just perfect for the job.

I agree with that....

Someone needs to do their homework when they say "the 45-70 is not what I would call a good bear killer".

[Varmint Hunter]

All joking aside, the 45-70 is actually "serious medicine" for bears. I've seen several bears that were killed with the 45-70 or its ballistic equivalent, the 450 Marlin. The last big Canadian black bear that I saw killed with the 45-70 was over 300 lbs. Not a monster but a good bear. Before the hunt, the hunter said that he wouldn't stop shooting until the bear stopped moving (assuming that he got an opportunity to shoot at all). Well he was lucky enough to have a 300 lb bear walk into his bait can which was about 60 yards from the stand.

First shot out of the gun came before the bear even reached the pail and dropped him.
Second shot followed up quickly while the bear was moaning on the ground.
Third shot was for bear insurance.

When the outfitter was skinning this guys bear all you could see in the hide was giant holes. You know how the holes stretch way out as a bear is skinned. Well this hide had SIX HUGE HOLES in it. Every shot made a sizable hole going in and another going out! Personally, I think the first shot was all that was needed and there would have been 1 dead bear and only 2 huge holes to sew up, but thats me. I'm fine with taking as many shots as a hunter feels is necessary.

Moral of the story - the 45-70 is MORE than enough cartridge for bears. With a maximum load, the 45-70 is right on the heals of the 458 Win mag. Moderate loads are more than adequate for bear of almost any size IMO.

[m1aman]

yes 45-70 is a very potent round. a +p load with a hard cast bullet will kill anything on the planet. i have read reports of them going clean through cape buffs from shoulder to hip. even a factory load (federal) is a LOT more bullet than a black bear can handle.

[teddy12b]

My order of reloading supplies came in.  I have plenty of Remington 405gr, Cast Performance 460gr cast with gas checks, brass, primers, and powder but haven't gotten my new conversion kit from Dillon yet so I'm dead in the water.  I've looked through all my manuals and H4198 seems to put out the highest velocities so that's the powder I picked up.  We'll see how well it works out when it gets to the range.

[m1aman]

may i ask why the concern about high velocity rounds. the weakest 45-70 load may very well blow right through a black bear. i have had 30-30 170 grains go completely through a 200 pound blackie

[teddy12b]

I'm not going to try to get every last FPS out of the round.  I just want to make sure I'm loading them at 1895 levels.  I figured if I got that gun for a close range cannon I might as well load it accordingly.  I always play it safe and follow what the books say.  Only time I didn't stop when the book said stop was when I was reloading triple shocks and they say go another grain or two higher.  I've been sick for over a week now and I just keep hoping to get better so I can get out to the range sometime soon.