The American Bolt Rifle...Like an Edsel vs. a Honda.

[SuperstitionCoues]

I think that the American gun industry is in the same trouble as the American car industry...What are your thoughts?

I was recently going to purchase an American-made Ruger Hawkeye in 7mm-08.  What was brought in for my order was sub-standard; a "high point" had been rubbed on the matte finish, and a ding in the barrel showed down to the bare metal.  I refused the gun.  The local gun store tried to make me accept it through a belligerent phone call, and I outright refused and demanded my money back.  I ended up going to Bass Pro Shops and purchasing a Browning Citori 525.  Japanese made by Miroku.  That makes the third Browning Miroku shotgun we own, and about $1850 that Bear Mountain Sports missed in sales, not counting the $ for the bolt action 7mm-08 that I was going to buy.  Bear Mountain Sports can shove it.

Ignoring that Browning and Winchester are both owned by Herstal, what I am consistently finding when I shop is that since the demise of Winchester, the American manufacturers are falling severely flat in markets for bolt action, lever action and shotguns.  They just aren't making anything out there that meets my quality standards to entice me to let loose of $500 - $1000.  The only rifle out there that really gets me thinking about purchasing one is the Browning A=Bolt Hunter .  Again, made in Japan by, I assume, Miroku (?).   Better quality and aesthetics.

It seems that the firearms industry is in the same spot the car industry is, and my dollars are going to an American co. that is manufacturing overseas.  I really don't mind that too much, as a piece of quality craftmanship is now hanging on my wall.  I am not about to buy a POS just because it was made in the U.S.

When it comes to firearms, am I alone on this?

[DWTim]

I think it depends entirely on the case:

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,120092.0/topicseen.html

I'm surprised that Ruger has the reputation it does. It must have snuck up on me, because when I was a kid, I always thought their rifles were rough and overpriced. I am still unimpressed with their hand guns, but while they lack the fit and finish of some guns, they are safe, reliable and generally accurate. (Please don't hurt me Ruger fans.)

Remington used to be the ultimate prize in my eyes. My uncles had Wingmasters that were beautifully finished, with smooth actions. I always wanted a Remington rifle. But the cheap products like the 740/742 (before my time) and the 870E snuck in. Then came the Wallyworld specials. Then I started hearing stories. Like the one fellow who didn't like the 5-inch groups his Remmy bolt was putting on the paper, and the company told him that it was within their standards of acceptable accuracy. When I can top that with a $200 surplus Enfield, there's a sales problem down the road.

But, "stories" is a good choice of words. They're anecdotes. Companies go up and down. No two guns are alike. I had two great Winchester scatterguns that were made in New Haven, and tried foreign-made ones that were junky. Then someone tells me the USRAC-made ones went downhill. Witness the extremes in quality from Ithica, or Dan Wesson... or S&W! S&W's were horrible after the take-over. This year, I broke down and bought a new Hillary-hole equipped S&W because, wow, it was cheap and really well put together.

If you strictly limit your options to lower-priced and new, you may not encounter the upper-crust domestic producers. While Ruger has name recognition, there are Dakotas and Kimbers, albeit at a high price. (Perfection costs money.) Personally, Ruger is all about their warranty. I understand that you just didn't want to be hassled. That's fine. However, I would have let Ruger fix their mistakes. If the shop owner eats the cost, Ruger won't learn.

And I do think they're like the car industry, or any manufacturing industry. When the sales drop off, they say "uh oh" and take a look at what they're doing wrong. Some improve, others go out of business. It doesn't help that there is so much needless government interference in the gun industry, though. (Hey, kind of like the auto industry.)

[jvs]

The Faslehood that this Economy is based on 'Supply and Demand', is just that...  A Big Lie.  It is based on what the market will bear.

Take the price of Gasoline for instance.  Do you really think the demand for gas in this country warrants a price of $3 a gallon?  Absolutely not !  You have $3 gas because you can afford $3 gas.  Then they also have you thinking, when the price of gas may drop to $2.75 that gas is cheap.  $2.75 gas is not cheap and $1.89 gas is not cheap, like it was a year or so ago.  But you are Brainwashed.

As soon as you may have gotten a little ahead, the prices rise and you are kept right where you are.

You pay $3 a gallon because you can afford $3 a gallon.  If the Economy would have gone into a tail spin because of the price of fuel, you would have seen heavy action by the gov't some where.  Instead Hyper-Inflation will soon kick in and $5 gas may be just a memory of the 'Good Old Days'.

So what does this have to do with gun makers?  Gun Makers would like to raise prices substantially right now, but they can't.  They would like to charge what the market will bear, but they can't.  Not with Savage and Mossberg gobbling alot of the low end market.  What they can do is what alot of companies have done.  Move manufacturing over seas and make it for less money and charge you a price for goods so the margin is about the same as if they could have raised prices and kept everything here.

An example of this is what Remington did to the price of a particular rifle out of the Custom Shop.  At this time last year, it was priced around $1,400.  Near the end of last year, the price jumped to around $1,700.  Now it is priced at $2,700.   

Now I seriously doubt that this Supply has that much of a Demand that it would make Remington double the price.  Remington is charging what the market will bear for a custom rifle.  Now we will see if orders fall off because of obscene pricing.  Remington will probably survive, but you may as well get accustomed to the idea that things are going to change at Remington.

Even though prices have risen over the past couple of years, it isn't enough to save the Employees of some domestic gun makers, which is the real prize here. 

Companies will continue to incrementally charge what the market will bear, and will continue to throw people out of good paying jobs and send work overseas.  Until the people get wise to this insane economy, where this population is based in Service and we are used as a Giant Wallet.   

[victorcharlie]

Threre is a lot of truth to that JVS.......the margin in some products is out of sight.

It amazes me that a citizen of Germany can't buy an H&K handgun so there is no market for them in Europe yet they are sold here.

[beemanbeme]

I don't know.  Everybody wants another $20.00 in their pay envelope but they still want the cheap prices.  I would imagine the folks at Remington and Ruger etc want the same thing.  Folks complain about the loss of quality at Remington and suggest you buy a Savage.  Obviously the only thing they're looking at is price.  People complain about the price of a Remington, yet will buy one and, without firing a shot, will ship it off to a smith, and pay several hundred dollars to have it "accurized".  If Remington were to lap the lugs, lap the bore, square the bolt and charge for it, the same customer would go ballistic. 

The United States is on it's way out I'm sorry to say. Unless things change dramatically. It isn't just $3.00 gas nor $2400 Custom Shop rifles, it is a place where gross indebtedness has become a competitive sport.  Ostentatious display of debt is a status symbol. 

[victorcharlie]

The United States is on it's way out I'm sorry to say. Unless things change dramatically. It isn't just $3.00 gas nor $2400 Custom Shop rifles, it is a place where gross indebtedness has become a competitive sport.  Ostentatious display of debt is a status symbol. 

I fear the same.  Debt is the trap.......DON'T STEP IN THE TRAP!

[pahuntr]

I think that the American gun industry is in the same trouble as the American car industry...What are your thoughts?

I was recently going to purchase an American-made Ruger Hawkeye in 7mm-08.  What was brought in for my order was sub-standard; a "high point" had been rubbed on the matte finish, and a ding in the barrel showed down to the bare metal.  I refused the gun.  The local gun store tried to make me accept it through a belligerent phone call, and I outright refused and demanded my money back.  I ended up going to Bass Pro Shops and purchasing a Browning Citori 525.  Japanese made by Miroku.  That makes the third Browning Miroku shotgun we own, and about $1850 that Bear Mountain Sports missed in sales, not counting the $ for the bolt action 7mm-08 that I was going to buy.  Bear Mountain Sports can shove it.

Ignoring that Browning and Winchester are both owned by Herstal, what I am consistently finding when I shop is that since the demise of Winchester, the American manufacturers are falling severely flat in markets for bolt action, lever action and shotguns.  They just aren't making anything out there that meets my quality standards to entice me to let loose of $500 - $1000.  The only rifle out there that really gets me thinking about purchasing one is the Browning A=Bolt Hunter .  Again, made in Japan by, I assume, Miroku (?).   Better quality and aesthetics.

It seems that the firearms industry is in the same spot the car industry is, and my dollars are going to an American co. that is manufacturing overseas.  I really don't mind that too much, as a piece of quality craftmanship is now hanging on my wall.  I am not about to buy a POS just because it was made in the U.S.

When it comes to firearms, am I alone on this?

I hear the new weatherby mark v's are made in the usa and are also still well made. don't know for sure myself.

[GaryVA]

I think that the American gun industry is in the same trouble as the American car industry...What are your thoughts?

I was recently going to purchase an American-made Ruger Hawkeye in 7mm-08.  What was brought in for my order was sub-standard; a "high point" had been rubbed on the matte finish, and a ding in the barrel showed down to the bare metal.  I refused the gun.  The local gun store tried to make me accept it through a belligerent phone call, and I outright refused and demanded my money back.  I ended up going to Bass Pro Shops and purchasing a Browning Citori 525.  Japanese made by Miroku.  That makes the third Browning Miroku shotgun we own, and about $1850 that Bear Mountain Sports missed in sales, not counting the $ for the bolt action 7mm-08 that I was going to buy.  Bear Mountain Sports can shove it.

Ignoring that Browning and Winchester are both owned by Herstal, what I am consistently finding when I shop is that since the demise of Winchester, the American manufacturers are falling severely flat in markets for bolt action, lever action and shotguns.  They just aren't making anything out there that meets my quality standards to entice me to let loose of $500 - $1000.  The only rifle out there that really gets me thinking about purchasing one is the Browning A=Bolt Hunter .  Again, made in Japan by, I assume, Miroku (?).   Better quality and aesthetics.

It seems that the firearms industry is in the same spot the car industry is, and my dollars are going to an American co. that is manufacturing overseas.  I really don't mind that too much, as a piece of quality craftmanship is now hanging on my wall.  I am not about to buy a POS just because it was made in the U.S.

When it comes to firearms, am I alone on this?

We must not have the same subjective needs in rifles.  My end use for rifles in that price range is for hunting game animals and shooting varmints.  I've turned away rifles for major defects such as bad crowns, cracked stocks, etc; but, I don't think I'd turn away such rifle for a minor cosmetic blemish.  All my hunting rifles have some sort of nick or ding from the field use anyway.

I don't share your opinion on the Ruger Hawkeye.  I find my Hawkeye African to be well thought out and well built straight out of the box. The overall package is phenominal for the $$.  As for wall hangers, it's hard to beat the Ruger RSM for aesthetics and it barely costs over $1000.

I'll do a 180 on the A-bolt.  You think it's a good deal, but I think it's a bunch of tiny, cheap parts that will rust up on you and fail in the field. To me, it is worthless junk.

If you want an American aesthetic wallhanger that meets the test of time, find an original pre-64 m70 boltgun or an original M-64 levergun.  These are incredible pieces of art and history that actually work exceedingly well in the field.

later,
GVA

[SuperstitionCoues]

We must not have the same subjective needs in rifles.  My end use for rifles in that price range is for hunting game animals and shooting varmints.  I've turned away rifles for major defects such as bad crowns, cracked stocks, etc; but, I don't think I'd turn away such rifle for a minor cosmetic blemish.  All my hunting rifles have some sort of nick or ding from the field use anyway.

I don't share your opinion on the Ruger Hawkeye.  I find my Hawkeye African to be well thought out and well built straight out of the box. The overall package is phenominal for the $$.  As for wall hangers, it's hard to beat the Ruger RSM for aesthetics and it barely costs over $1000.

I'll do a 180 on the A-bolt.  You think it's a good deal, but I think it's a bunch of tiny, cheap parts that will rust up on you and fail in the field. To me, it is worthless junk.

If you want an American aesthetic wallhanger that meets the test of time, find an original pre-64 m70 boltgun or an original M-64 levergun.  These are incredible pieces of art and history that actually work exceedingly well in the field.

later,
GVA

Well, you have kind of reinforced my point.  If I am going to lay out cash for a rifle with dings and scratches, it had better be cheaper than a brand-new price.  I didn't order a scratched-and-dented firearm, and I am not about to accept one at the brand new cost.  If scratches and dents are to be put in it, then I will put them in out in field.  HOWEVER,  the weapons discipline that I learned a long, long time ago keeps my weapons looking pretty good, some even after 20+ years of use. 

My issue is more with the retailer, the distributor and the shipper than the manufacturer.  The retailer expects you to accept faulty merchandise at a premium price for the product.  The distributor ships with someone who isn't as careful with the merchandise as they should be, leading to the faulty product.  And the manufacturer didn't design a very good package to protect the weapon (why didn't they use a form-fitted styrofoam liner, like most others?) during shipping from the manufacturer to the purchaser. 

But who takes the heat?  I do, as the customer, for being "picky".  Sorry.  That's my $$$ being layed down, and my standards are still what they were 20 years ago, when I could count on a quality firearm being delivered in NRA NIB condition, not anything less.  That I will not comprimise on.  The small mom-and-pop retailer expects you to take it and be quiet to protect their profit margin.  That isn't selling quality merchandise, that's just pushing parts.  I will take my business to the larger competitor who has better customer service, a better product, and a better price. 

If that Ruger hadn't looked like it had already been in the field, I would have taken it.  Shame on me if I beat up a gun after I purchase it - God knows I've fallen enough down hillsides or slopes with my weapons to put a scratch or two in them.  I am not about to buy a beat-up weapon though, as "new".  Nor am I going to buy a beat-up weapon with the intention of spending more $ in shipping it back to the factory for immediate repairs.  That is simply insane.

[Coyote Hunter]

The Faslehood that this Economy is based on 'Supply and Demand', is just that...  A Big Lie.  It is based on what the market will bear.
...  

"...what the market will bear" would be the DEMAND side of things.

As to $3/gallon gas, when adjusted for inflation that's cheaper than the $0.25/gallon I remember as a kid.  And a LOT cheaper than what I paid for water at the airport a few days ago.

[jvs]

Wrong !   What the Market will bear is not 'demand'. 

And I can remember, not so long ago, when you could go just about anywhere and find a Water Fountain that was there as a common courtesy.  But since people decided they would rather pay $1+ for a pint of gourmet water, I guess it's no wonder that very few Water Fountains can be found in public places.

While I don't think the Oil Companies should carry the weight of supplying fuel to the public for free, I also don't believe they should be making obscene profits.  This oil profit system is weighted in Big Oils favor, and it will be their greed that will bring an end to it.  State Tax has a big part in the price of fuel also, so the Oil Companies are not all to blame.

I also still contend that $3 gas does nothing but keep John Q. Public at the bottom of the food chain, where many economic Big Shots believe he should forever stay.

The Gun Companies are now well involved in these Shenannigans.  Probably to their ruin. 

All we can look forward to now is Gov't poking it's nose into guns more than they do now and making it much too expensive for the regular guy.  How will the gun industry ever survive if the Liberals do to gun companies what they did to the Tobacco Companies?   

[Coyote Hunter]

Wrong !   What the Market will bear is not 'demand'. 

And I can remember, not so long ago, when you could go just about anywhere and find a Water Fountain that was there as a common courtesy.  But since people decided they would rather pay $1+ for a pint of gourmet water, I guess it's no wonder that very few Water Fountains can be found in public places.

Guess we’re not going to agree on this one, but I can’t think of a better definition of market demand than what the market will bear (what people are willing to pay for a particular product).

I gladly pay $9 to see a movie but there are some movies I wouldn’t see if they were free.  I gladly pay $3 for a bottle of water at the airport so I don’t have to drag my bags half-way down a concourse in search of a water fountain – instead I get to sit and read and sip water as I choose.  At home I buy bottled water by the case, often for about the same price as a single bottle at the airport, and the bottles tend to get refilled a few times before getting tossed. 

In the case of gas the first thing people do when the price rises is to start driving less, which means they don’t buy as much.  The next thing they do is to start using more efficient means of transportation – car pooling, buses, more fuel efficient vehicles, etc.
The fact is that if no one bought gas at $3.00 a gallon (or pick your price), the price would drop.

The point is people vote with their dollars and when the perceived value isn’t there they quit buying.  This is true at both the consumer and wholesale levels.

[Skeezix]

SuperCous:  I'm sorry to hear about the condition of your Ruger Hawkeye when you received it.  You were right in demanding your money back or either demanding that they swap it for another one.  My experience has been that Ruger will stand behind their product better than any other large American firearms manufacturer, even if the dealer won't. 

I had a gun business for several years and was a gunsmith for many more, and still do work on a limited basis.  Of bolt action centerfire rifles made in the last 20 years or so, I've seen far more defective Remingtons than all of the other brands combined.  The way-distant second place was Winchester.  Ruger had its share, but a lot of their problems were dealt with sucessfully by contacting the factory.  The most frustrating were the bad barrels (made by a sub-contractor) that Ruger let get out in the early '80's.  I personally owned a #1 in .243 Win that had one, and it went back twice before I got some resolution.

There is no excuse for the dealer trying to get you to take a supposedly NEW rifle that has cosmetic damage to it.  I would have immediately returned it to the distributor, no questions asked.  There is a high probability that the damage was inflicted AFTER it left the factory.

I guess the bottom line of this post is that I wouldn't be so hard on Ruger for these cosmetic defects, but would be quite disenchanted with the dealer and distributor.  Again, there is a high probability that the damage happened AFTER the rifle left the production facility. 

[Coyote Hunter]

SuperstitionCoues -

I think every manufacturer has an occasional lemon slip out the door.  I think it is also true that only a fool would expect the same quality for $500 that is available for $1850.

IMHO Ruger, Marlin and Savage, all American manufacturers, all put out great products that are affordable to the masses.   If they only put out products that cost $1850 you wouldn’t find any of these products in my gun safe.  The fact is, however, my safe has 3 Ruger handguns, 5 Ruger rifles, and 3 Marlin rifles, along with a few other firearms.  I had a Savage but sold it after shooting the barrel out.

I do have some Brownings, a Buckmark .22LR, BDM 9mm Luger, a .22LR BAR and B92 carbine in .44 Mag.  Don’t know where the handguns were made but both rifles are fine products manufactured in Japan by Miroku.  While I love the Brownings I have, I wouldn’t own an A-Bolt regardless of where it was manufactured.  Too many little parts that, by many reports are prone to rust and breakage, and the aesthetics simply don’t appeal to me at all. 

My next two planned firearms purchases include both a Ruger and a Marlin.  Not because they are made in America but because they are, IMHO, excellent values. 

[TNrifleman]

I've only seen and handled two Ruger Hawkeye rifles. I inspected both very closely and was impressed with the design and craftsmanship I noted in these rifles. There were no blemishes, dents, flaws, or mistakes observed. The one you mention no doubt had issues. but please don't lump all Rugers or other American made firearms in with that particular copy.   

[victorcharlie]

I usually wait for the movie to come out on DVD, and have been using the same designer water bottle for about 3 months now.....just hold it under the running tap and wha la.......designer water.

Lets face it......Many Americans have so much discretionary income that they are willing to spend it for most any thing.....remember pet rocks?

A sucker and his money are soon parted!

[GrassLakeRon]

Hi all,

2 things: 1) Profit margins.  Companies will sell there souls for a higher profit margin so they look good to there shareholders and stay within Wall Street Expectations.  Remington and Winchester are but the last two to fall to it.  Hard to believe you could buy Remington for what 343 million. Lottery winnings could do that....
2)  Come out with new calibers and stake your companies futures on them.  Don't hurt me but short mag,ultra mag, this mag that mag...How about a gun that has a track record and will be able to be past down from one generation to the next....

Ron

[SuperstitionCoues]

SuperstitionCoues -

I think every manufacturer has an occasional lemon slip out the door.  I think it is also true that only a fool would expect the same quality for $500 that is available for $1850.

IMHO Ruger, Marlin and Savage, all American manufacturers, all put out great products that are affordable to the masses.   If they only put out products that cost $1850 you wouldn’t find any of these products in my gun safe.  The fact is, however, my safe has 3 Ruger handguns, 5 Ruger rifles, and 3 Marlin rifles, along with a few other firearms.  I had a Savage but sold it after shooting the barrel out.

I do have some Brownings, a Buckmark .22LR, BDM 9mm Luger, a .22LR BAR and B92 carbine in .44 Mag.  Don’t know where the handguns were made but both rifles are fine products manufactured in Japan by Miroku.  While I love the Brownings I have, I wouldn’t own an A-Bolt regardless of where it was manufactured.  Too many little parts that, by many reports are prone to rust and breakage, and the aesthetics simply don’t appeal to me at all. 

My next two planned firearms purchases include both a Ruger and a Marlin.  Not because they are made in America but because they are, IMHO, excellent values. 

CH,

You are correct in that "... only a fool would expect the same quality for $500 that is available for $1850".  I wasn't expecting the same level of quality between the two.  My point was, because of the poor customer service on a Ruger rifle at a lower price, the store lost another sale that I was going to make, that I had the cash for.  Their loss.

For a ~$560 Ruger Hawkeye, I expect the same quality as in a Ruger M77MkII, or a Winchester Model 70, or a Remington 700.  Comparing a Ruger Hawkeye to a Browning Citori is comparing apples to oranges.  They aren't even in the same class.  Value in a firearm is also what I desire, and a firearm that comes out of the store already blemished and damaged is not one of value - no matter who makes it.

[Coyote Hunter]

...a firearm that comes out of the store already blemished and damaged is not one of value - no matter who makes it.

As Skeezix said, there is a high probability that the damage occurred after the rifle left Ruger - no way to prove it one way or another, but its unfair to hold any manufacturer responsible when that is the case.  I wouldn't have accepted the rifle either.

[jvs]

I don't like Ruger Rifles for a few reasons...  Price, Liability Trigger, etc, etc.

Asthetics isn't one of the reasons.  Ruger alsways did make a good looking rifle, IMO.

What I'm getting at here is, to my knowledge, Ruger doesn't make Blems for shipment.  Saying Ruger shipped an ugly rifle is like saying Weatherby did the same thing.  I don't see it happening at the Ruger factory.

There are alot of reasons why a rifle can get beat up in between the time it leaves the factory and you buy it at a gun shop.  Sometimes the Distributor sits on the damaged ones until the last minute or the gunshop owner waits for the right person to walk in the door.  And sometimes it isn't a new rifle, but a used one that was passed on.

In either case, something is fishy about this whole thing.   Between the Distributor and the Gunshop, somebody isn't telling the truth.  And they expect you to be the sucker while Ruger foots the bill.   

[jhm]

Like several have already said it was probably damaged after PRODUCTION, it may have gotten damaged while sitting in their W/H awaiting shipment, how many different w/houses do you think that rifle or any item as far as that goes it sits in before the consumer get their hands on it?  Quite a few and it get handles in all of them or could be.   JIM

[Mac11700]

I think that the American gun industry is in the same trouble as the American car industry...What are your thoughts?

I was recently going to purchase an American-made Ruger Hawkeye in 7mm-08.  What was brought in for my order was sub-standard; a "high point" had been rubbed on the matte finish, and a ding in the barrel showed down to the bare metal.  I refused the gun.  The local gun store tried to make me accept it through a belligerent phone call, and I outright refused and demanded my money back.  I ended up going to Bass Pro Shops and purchasing a Browning Citori 525.  Japanese made by Miroku.  That makes the third Browning Miroku shotgun we own, and about $1850 that Bear Mountain Sports missed in sales, not counting the $ for the bolt action 7mm-08 that I was going to buy.  Bear Mountain Sports can shove it.

Ignoring that Browning and Winchester are both owned by Herstal, what I am consistently finding when I shop is that since the demise of Winchester, the American manufacturers are falling severely flat in markets for bolt action, lever action and shotguns.  They just aren't making anything out there that meets my quality standards to entice me to let loose of $500 - $1000.  The only rifle out there that really gets me thinking about purchasing one is the Browning A=Bolt Hunter .  Again, made in Japan by, I assume, Miroku (?).   Better quality and aesthetics.

It seems that the firearms industry is in the same spot the car industry is, and my dollars are going to an American co. that is manufacturing overseas.  I really don't mind that too much, as a piece of quality craftmanship is now hanging on my wall.  I am not about to buy a POS just because it was made in the U.S.

When it comes to firearms, am I alone on this?

Let me see if I have this correct...

You say you ordered a new rifle...and it came in...but had a few very minor cosmetic faults...and you were so upset...you refused that rifle...demanded your money back...then you went to a Bass Pro shop...and paid their exuberant prices on a Browning 525 Over & Under shotgun...Then you want to go on a rant about how crappy America's gun makers are doing...That about the size of it?


Please...

Since everyone is entitled to their opinion...Here's mine...I don't think your going to like it much though...because what your saying...doesn't add up to me at all...

I think...you had changed your mind on the rifle before you ever opened the box at your gun store...Wither you didn't have a need for it...or really didn't want it...or what ever...it didn't matter...You weren't going to accept it no matter what the condition of it was...and your just posting about it here so you can justify your other purchase......In all likely hood...your  store most likely has some known policy about refunds on special orders...hence...the need for the  "there was something wrong with it approach " ......to get around it...Had you really wanted that particular make & model of  7-08 rifle...you would have gone someplace else and got one...not rush out and buy a  O/U shotgun...instead...

Like I said...that's just my opinion..and here is 1 more...Gun makers in this country still produce some of the best rifles made in the world...Yes...Miroku gun makers are very good......just as some of the English..German..and Spanish,and Italian makers are...This is nothing new to those of us that have been around for a while...I don't have a problem with buying a gun not made here in the USA...provided it worthy enough spend my money on...but...not all guns here are P.O.C's by a long shot...

Mac

[SuperstitionCoues]

I think that the American gun industry is in the same trouble as the American car industry...What are your thoughts?

I was recently going to purchase an American-made Ruger Hawkeye in 7mm-08.  What was brought in for my order was sub-standard; a "high point" had been rubbed on the matte finish, and a ding in the barrel showed down to the bare metal.  I refused the gun.  The local gun store tried to make me accept it through a belligerent phone call, and I outright refused and demanded my money back.  I ended up going to Bass Pro Shops and purchasing a Browning Citori 525.  Japanese made by Miroku.  That makes the third Browning Miroku shotgun we own, and about $1850 that Bear Mountain Sports missed in sales, not counting the $ for the bolt action 7mm-08 that I was going to buy.  Bear Mountain Sports can shove it.

Ignoring that Browning and Winchester are both owned by Herstal, what I am consistently finding when I shop is that since the demise of Winchester, the American manufacturers are falling severely flat in markets for bolt action, lever action and shotguns.  They just aren't making anything out there that meets my quality standards to entice me to let loose of $500 - $1000.  The only rifle out there that really gets me thinking about purchasing one is the Browning A=Bolt Hunter .  Again, made in Japan by, I assume, Miroku (?).   Better quality and aesthetics.

It seems that the firearms industry is in the same spot the car industry is, and my dollars are going to an American co. that is manufacturing overseas.  I really don't mind that too much, as a piece of quality craftmanship is now hanging on my wall.  I am not about to buy a POS just because it was made in the U.S.

When it comes to firearms, am I alone on this?

Let me see if I have this correct...

You say you ordered a new rifle...and it came in...but had a few very minor cosmetic faults...and you were so upset...you refused that rifle...demanded your money back...then you went to a Bass Pro shop...and paid their exuberant prices on a Browning 525 Over & Under shotgun...Then you want to go on a rant about how crappy America's gun makers are doing...That about the size of it?


Please...

Since everyone is entitled to their opinion...Here's mine...I don't think your going to like it much though...because what your saying...doesn't add up to me at all...

I think...you had changed your mind on the rifle before you ever opened the box at your gun store...Wither you didn't have a need for it...or really didn't want it...or what ever...it didn't matter...You weren't going to accept it no matter what the condition of it was...and your just posting about it here so you can justify your other purchase......In all likely hood...your  store most likely has some known policy about refunds on special orders...hence...the need for the  "there was something wrong with it approach " ......to get around it...Had you really wanted that particular make & model of  7-08 rifle...you would have gone someplace else and got one...not rush out and buy a  O/U shotgun...instead...

Like I said...that's just my opinion..and here is 1 more...Gun makers in this country still produce some of the best rifles made in the world...Yes...Miroku gun makers are very good......just as some of the English..German..and Spanish,and Italian makers are...This is nothing new to those of us that have been around for a while...I don't have a problem with buying a gun not made here in the USA...provided it worthy enough spend my money on...but...not all guns here are P.O.C's by a long shot...

Mac

Nope.  You got it wrong.  Bad customer service at the small store on the damaged rifle was the deciding factor in my decisions. 

Bass Pro Shop's price on that shotgun are the cheapest in town; I have been watching and looking for two years.  I had enough cash for both purchases and still have enough cash for the rifle.  If the rifle sale went well, I was going to order the shotgun.  I am now looking for another 7mm-08 from either Browning or Ruger, and am taking my time.  Turns out 7mm-08's aren't as readily available as you would expect. 

What doesn't add up for you is that it seems you are willing to accept inferior merchandise at a premium price (for what it is) and are unwilling to stand up for yourself when faced with the situation.  Guess that is a foreign concept to you.   I won't accept it and will not be bullied by a store clerk, of all people. 

I am also finding that quality is slipping on much of the american-made firearms, and I am expected to pay more for what I wouldn't accept 20 years ago in a bottom-rung Winchester M70 Ranger.  That expectation is a phenomena that I am encountering more and more, and have encountered for years when it comes to cars and trucks - hence the title of this post.  The reason for the post was to find out if others have run into the same kind of attitudes.

Everyone else is entitled to their own opinions.  You need to check your facts before forming them though. 

[SuperstitionCoues]

Mac,

FYI.  The price on the Browning Citori 525 was $1699, approx. $1850 w/ tax. 

[Mac11700]

What doesn't add up for you is that it seems you are willing to accept inferior merchandise at a premium price (for what it is) and are unwilling to stand up for yourself when faced with the situation.  Guess that is a foreign concept to you.

Hardly the case...at all...As others here have already said to you...A firearm is handled many times from the factory...to the store...and about the only way you can be sure it was mishandled at the factory..is to buy direct from a 1st tier distributor...as the rifle is shipped directly from the factory...to them...and to be able to open it there...This is possible to do for some...but not for everyone...

Secondly...I know full well the company would have made the rifle right if it had been shipped back to them as not acceptable from the dealer...I have had dealings with Ruger in the past for this very thing...and while they aren't the absolute best company to deal with...they are far removed from the worst...So..I do speak with first hand knowledge on the subject...I have had to send rifles back before...from the most in-expensive on the market...to some of the most pricey...

The difference between you and me..is quite evident...I don't go into dealing with any customer service department with an attitude...which is quite obvious from your responses here is exactly what you did...While standing up for ones " rights" is always a good thing to do...and something I always do...having good customer relation skills will get you further with any company dealing with any product that has to be returned...than casting blame and acting rude...or incensed because your rifle wasn't pristine...The old addage of..." You catch more flies with honey than vinegar" is very true...

You gun store...while probably not the best at what they do..will loose business because of poor customer relations...such as yours...with or with out what you post here...But...you slamming all American gun manufactures because of minor cosmetic flaws is ludicrous at best...Do we have to accept these minor flaws...NO...we don't ...and there are proper ways of dealing with the company to get it corrected...with out having to go on a rant about it...Has the over all quality of American made rifles gone in the toilet...No...All have flaws of some sort in them...Yes...even on the most expensive models made...if one looks hard enough...they will find slight imperfections...but...for the cost of your Ruger...you are no where even close in cost to what one of the better grades cost...and ...perfection comes at a high cost...

Bottom line here...You made the decision to refuse the rifle and go elsewhere instead of having it returned for a replacement...If the store wouldn't do that for you...then you still had the option of calling Ruger on the spot at the store if they were open...or coming back and doing it when they were...I have done that before on a Red Label 12ga...and the one I got as a replacement was perfect..and had about 3x better wood on it...I have also done this with Remington as well on a 1100 Trap...This was done right at the store...right in front of the owners...each time what I got in return..was significantly better than what I originally purchased...

That expectation is a phenomena that I am encountering more and more, and have encountered for years when it comes to cars and trucks - hence the title of this post.  The reason for the post was to find out if others have run into the same kind of attitudes.

What type of attitudes...Yours?...If yes to this...then yes...I have seen this phenomena...people expect perfection on a mass produce item at a cut rate price...I'm a realist...and an opportunist who won't settle for junk...but...being one...makes me look at all aspects to this...and what can be gained from a minor inconvenience if properly handled...and you could too if you wouldn't have such high expectations...and think all of America is going down the drain...I am not saying you shouldn't be upset...what I am saying is your perspective on the American industry is skewed...To get one of the pre 64 model 70's back in it's heyday ...How much in today's dollars would you have to spend...consider that...Even then...they were expensive...with the cost of living back then...

FYI.  The price on the Browning Citori 525 was $1699, approx. $1850 w/ tax.

Which is appr. $200 more than I would have to spend to get it

Mac

[Coyote Hunter]

Here's a group I shot at the range today with a cheap POS Ruger I picked up used at a gun show last November in Houston, $375.  It's only 2 shots but I figured at that point the elk was dead...





Here's a group I shot today with a cheap POS Remington purchased used at Gander Mountain in November 2005, $350.



Clearly, American rifles aren't worth spit.

[beemanbeme]

I bought a XR-100 in .223 when they first came out.  I cleaned it and took it to a factory match using generic ammo.  And won.  I even scratched out a (single) .1. The bench rest guy kept coming by asking what all I'd done to the rifle.  They looked kinda cranky when I told them "nothing". 

I keep it hidden in the back of the closet when I'm not shooting it since it's not a one off built by an elf under a hollow log nor has it had some bavarian sweat dripped on it but what it does is please me and that's what counts.  Ask any Savage owner. 

[nomosendero]

Here's a group I shot at the range today with a cheap POS Ruger I picked up used at a gun show last November in Houston, $375.  It's only 2 shots but I figured at that point the elk was dead...





Here's a group I shot today with a cheap POS Remington purchased used at Gander Mountain in November 2005, $350.



Clearly, American rifles aren't worth spit.

Too bad you did not know that American products are no good before you invested in these. Just think, you could have paid more & got less.
I have some of those POS American rifles that shoot one hole groups, what's a guy to do.

[SuperstitionCoues]

    You know what is really funny in all of this?  No where, not once, have I ever referred to an American rifle as a "POS".  This posting - originally more a commentary on customer service in a small gun store and the shipping practices o a distributor -  has taken on a life of it's own.     


Coyotehunter,  my Ruger M77MkII 25-06, Win. M70 30-06, 7mm WSM, and each of my Marlin 22's will ALL shoot a one-hole group if I am having a good day.  They are all American made.  My Lyman GPR 50 cal and 54 cal muzzleloaders will shoot groups that the holes touch also - they are of Italian manufacture.  My Browning shotguns - all three made in Japan - are on par or exceed the performance of my ancient Remington 870, and I think that is because some misbegotton soul permanently modified the 870's barrel with a Polychoke long before I took the weapon into my embrace. 

And there, my friends, is my conundrum.  I have noticed a decline - and nothing will sway my observations of such - in the quality of American-made firearms in the past couple of years.  Specifically, since the Winchester plant in New England.  Shoddy finish, slipshod assembly, excuses at the gun counter, and the expectation that once you purchase the firearm to ship it back to the original manufacturer at your own cost for repair before you use it.  A sane approach, yes?

Now, would someone please attempt to stay on track, and tell me if they have begun to notice the same problems of declining quality? 

[Coyote Hunter]

...
Now, would someone please attempt to stay on track, and tell me if they have begun to notice the same problems of declining quality? 

Winchester, big time, back in '64.  Savages seem to be getting better, Haven't noticed a decline in either Marlin or Ruger.  Haven't paid any attention to Remington.