How accurate does a hunting rifle have to be?

[Buckfever]

I always wondered just how accurate does a regular hunting rifle have to be?  If it shoots 1 1/2" @ 100yds. is that adequate?  I am certain it depends upon the owner.  For example some guys at the range are just having a bad day when their hunting rifle won't shoot 3/4" or less.  I like to mess with reloading now that I know how and Sub-MOA is just fine with me.  So what are your opinions and are they based on any criteria or just what you should do to make your self happy?  I have felt that 3 plus inches @ 300 yds. is just fine and probably longer than I will ever take a shot.  Also if it is 1" @ 100yds and 5"  @ 300yds that is me, maybe the wind but still me.

So what do you think about this question?

Buckfever

[ssghelmick]

The Internet is full of guys with SUB-MOA hunting rifles. Just ask them. I have to laugh when I read the post about how they had to sell the rifle because it wouldn't produce 1/2" groups at 100 yards. I own, right now, 22 Center-fire rifles and only a small portion of them will shoot MOA on command each and every time and most of those are customs. But then I base MOA on a 5 shot group not a 3 shot group. Three shot groups don't tell the real story as to the rifles ability, but a five shot group will generally tell the real story. Also a true MOA rifle will shoot MOA all the time not just once in awhile. While it's true the shooter must understand the fundamentals and be able to produce the necessary shooting skills to perform such accuracy. I'm here to tell you that most off the rack rifles will not shoot MOA out of the box and a large number will never shoot true MOA. Even the ones with a MOA guarantee only gaurantee a 3 round group with premium ammo not a 5 round group.

Now a 3 round group is fine for the average big game hunter because very seldom do you fire more than three rounds at a game animal and with that said a big game hunting rifle does not have to shoot MOA. In fact I would consider a 1 1/2" gun a fine hunting rifle for big game when you consider I can consistently hit targets at 500m with an M16 and it is a 3 minute rifle.

[roper]

A three or 5 shot groups is up to the shooter on a hunting rifle since the first shot is what counts.  In a factory rifle sometimes getting 1" at 100yd is tough and if your rifle is getting 1 1/2" group's sometimes that may be the best that rifle can do or the best the shooter  can do.  If that same rifle is shooting around 5" at 300yds that sounds about right.

Every one I know has a 1/2" big game rifle.  I have afew of them but they are custom and those 1/2" groups only come with trigger time.  Years ago Wby was the first to offer his rifles  would get 1" groups at 100yds 3 shot groups Rem sold their 40x with test target having two 5 shot groups.  I've got a Tikka t-3, 300Wbymag and 300RUM and they are all solid 1" rifles at 100yds not bad for a factory rifle.  Rifles have all had trigger jobs etc at 300yds is where I sight my rifle at they will hold alittle over 3" group.  I just got a new custom 300wby and my best groups are always the first ones  seems the more I shoot it barrel heat etc take over and you have to look at how recoil may effect your groups on a long range session.   Well good luck

[burntmuch]

I would rather have a gun that I can shoot 2 inch groups at 100 yds everytime I take it out, over a gun tha will give me 1/2 inch group one day then 3 inch group the next . Im happy with a gun/scope combo that fits me , shoots the same POI everytime. Ive got a 55yr old rem700 7mag that has given me 1/2 inch groups. I cant shoot that good everytime I go out. Im in the 1 inch to 2 inch group crowd. Thats good enough for me. I also have a Nef 45/70 that I cant get the groups under 1 1/2 inch.
  closer to 2 to 2 1/2 inch. But POI is the same everytime. Thats good enough for me    Jay

[jvs]

This is a story I relate here at least once a year :

Each Autumn, before deer season, just about everyone goes to the range to make sure their rifles are still sighted in.

Every year, an old guy shows up with same old Winchester Model 94 with factory sights.  He walks down to the backstop and staples a target to the boards.  He then fires two shots and proclaims - " as long as I can hit the bottom of a 5 gallon bucket, that's good enough".  GASP !

This old guy never owned a scope and since he is a WWII Vet, he never saw the need for one.  Even as he got older and his eyesight isn't what it used to be.

Obviously, he thinks as long as he can hit the Boiler Room, he's happy.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot, he also gets a deer just about every year.           

[STexhunter]

The first 3 posts seem to be good honest answers to your question.  All my rifles are hunting rifles and while I have shot my share of sub MOA, it doesn't happen all the time, and less the older I get.  I'm happy with a hunting rifle that will consistently shoot 1.5 inch groups.  In my opinion it takes takes a lot of practice and great shooting technique to consistently shoot sub MOA.  I believe that consistency is the name of the game and a rifle that will shoot 1.5 inch groups every time is a whole lot better than one that will not, and a rifle to hang on too.  Your post addressed hunting rifle accuracy, and a rifle that will shoot under 2 inches consistently at 100 yds is fine for hunting.  I limit my shots on game to 200 yds are less.  I don't have the confidence in myself to pull off 300 and 400 yard shots.  Anyway good shooting and above all have fun.

[Aardvark]

 The first shot needs to be where you point it.How accurate and consistent has little bearing in the field when taking game is how important?
 The first shot should put an animal down.
  Shooting groups is another sport all together IMHO.

[Savage .250]

                                         Accuracy is what ever makes me happy.   
   

[The Sodbuster]

I'd say about any off-the-shelf rifle nowadays is accurate enough for hunting.  The only difference is to what range is it accurate enough?  A custom gun might be accurate enough out to 600 yards or better, but few shooters can take advantage of that.  A dog of a rifle might only be accurate enough out to 100-200 yards.  If you can put three rounds inside a few inches at 100 yards, you can probably put all of 'em in the proverbial pie plate at 300. 

All my rifles are more accurate than I am.  If I miss on any reasonable distance at game, I know it ain't the rifle's fault.

[oldandslow]

I did all my deer hunting with a 30-06 that shoots Remington 150 gr. Core-Locts into 1.5". Never any problems that I didn't cause. Shot a barb wire fence in two once and hit a little tree limb once.  Other than that it worked just fine.

[corbanzo]

For hunting, it really depends what you are shooting at.  If you are hunting squirrel at 300 yards, you need a 1.5" group, and if you are hunting moose at 300 yards, you need a 10 inch group.  Really it is whatever it takes to kill an animal, who cares what anyone else says. 

A dead deer ain't gonna say, you know, if you hit me more in the heart instead of the lungs, it would of been better for me... 

What it comes to practice, I would say that you need to do a lot better than you do hunting, cause mistakes can happen.  If you shoot very well in practice, then shooting worse won't be so bad.  If you already are shooting bad, a mistake can cause very bad results when hunting.

[Rangr44]

I'm with Aardvark.

IMHO, It's more important that any rifle put it's first shot wherever the sights are aimed, than the size group it fires - if you want to put meat on the table.

[jimmyp50]

I like those answers that say "if the first bullet lands within an inch of where the sights are at 100 yards out of a cold (fouled) barrel, you are good to go".  I shoot groups for load development, but wait a full 5 minutes or longer between shots.  When I have a load I think the gun likes I take the target, pack up, go home and come back the next day.  From a cold barrel if the first one lands in the same group that I had shot the day before, then I zero the rifle for this load and hardly ever change.  I am not a good enough shot to shoot 1/2 inch groups, especially with rifles that produce more recoil.  Right now I am zeroing my guns to be dead on at 100, this gives me the most confidence.  The worst gun I own a model 88 winchester shoots 2-3 inch groups now, but I am 100% confident that the group is centered about the bull, no deer has ever walked away from that rifle.  You can chase groups like a dog chases its tail, or you can develop confidence in your rifle even if it shoots a 2-3 inch group. The secret in my mind is letting the barrel completely cool between shots and focusing on all the details at every shot when you are developing a load.  Once I know where the gun shoots with a given load, if I pull a flyer I know that it was me.   If you cannot ever get a bullet to land where it is supposed to land something is wrong.

[Graybeard]

How accurate does it need to be? Not so very really under most circumstances.

We've got an old Remington Model 7 in 7-08 that was one of the first Remington ever made. I've had it for over 20 years I'm sure how much over I'm not sure. It's never been a really accurate rifle and from day one seldom shot anything into less than 1.5" and more often than not it was closer to 1.75" to 2". The day I took it to the range to sight it in after mounting a scope a squirrel was chattering about in the wood line to the side of the range the entire time. Once I had it sighted in I shot that squirrel at about 75-80 yards away.

To this day that rifle has never missed on game and never ever required a second shot. I used it for years taking deer and exotics and occasional ferals. My oldest son used it and it's now my wife's gun. It's been used in several states on a wide variety of game by all three of us and yet the record is perfect for it. It's never missed and never required a follow up shot even tho it's hard pressed to shoot 1.5" groups at 100 yards.

I have recently found that it loves Hornady Light Magnum ammo tho and it will shoot that into less than MOA. That's the ONLY load in all those years that has ever shot under an inch at 100 in that rifle.

So in my opinion unless all your hunting is done at extreme ranges a rifle that will stay under 2" pretty much all the time and that the POI doesn't shift around on is more than adequate. My longest shot with it was about 200 yards on the second largest buck I've taken. It was up to the job.

[SHOOTALL]

i started to think of an answer and advice i was given over 30 years ago came to mind , i ask a shooter gunsmith how to know what to do to make a gun accurate , he looked at me and said "Boy most guns out shoot the man pulling the trigger " he went on to say when you can call your shot and know the rifle can't shoot as well as you then worry about getting work done on it ! It took a little time but i got it , take a rifle shoot it then shoot some more and ya learn to shoot that gun , you know what it will do day in and day out , you do the trigger job the best way ya wear it in , I have a few rifles that will shoot an inch or under IF ( its that big if ) if the wind ain't blowing , if i have the right load ,if its off a bench 'if the light is right ,IF IF if if ...................... so now i sight in my guns for a point blank hold ( another story ) when i feel its sighted in i distribute clay targets  over the range at un known distance and shoot till i can hit um ! all the way to 500 yds , and no i have never had a shot at 500 maybe 200 on deer 300 on ground hogs everything else under 75 ! so i guess my group has to stay inside a clay target ! hint ! when ya think you are good stand up and shoot , the farthest target you can hit on demand is the farthest you should shoot at a deer without support or a rest ! boy was that an eye opener ! pratice does help !

[ScoutMan]

For a thoughtful discussion on this topic.

http://www.frfrogspad.com/miscellg.htm#enough

[Slamfire]

When I was a lad, there were many rifles that wouldn't shoot into a minute of angle,, except  in the reviews in the shooting and blasting magazines. I'd be willing to bet there still are quite a few, although rifle tuning is better understood today. I'm only interested in the one shot group. I shoot one shot, every day for a week at a single target. If the group is less than 2" I'm delighted. 

[tuck2]

Over the years I have worked up reloads for various big game rifles.  Its fun to see what accuracy I can get from a rifle. I have learned how to glass bed the actions , free float the barrels, and adjust the trigger pull , and have a gunsmith lapp the bolt locking lugs.  All of my big game rifles will shoot under a two inch  five shot group at 100 yards , most under 1 1/2 inch groups, some will do one inch groups and a few  under 3/4 inch groups. I have had some lucky 1/2 inch groups but I dont count them.  I have shot mule deer, pronghorn, and elk, most all under 250 yards so for me a rifle that would do two inch groups would have ben all that  I needed. . . For small varmints, like prairie dog shooting my rifles must shoot 3/4 inch or less groups with some shooting 1/2 inch groups at 100 Yds.

[Zachary]

I guess there is a difference between how accurate a rifle NEEDS to be, and how accurate we WANT it to be.

Even for big game like deer, which I routinely harvest within 100 yards, there is no NEED for my gun to shoot sub-moa.  BUT, I admit that I WANT a rifle to shoot sub-moa, even under such circumstances.  Why?  Well, for one, it is a confidence builder.  I know, you may ask "how much confidence do you need to shoot a deer at 100 yards?"  Well, the answer to your question in part lies with my second reason: precision shooting.  You see, I use a rifle as somewhat of a precise surgical tool.  I know, that may seem funny, but consider how I hunt.  There are times when I want to take a neck shot, or a spine shot.  If you miss such a shot by an inch, then you could risk causing more pain to the animal.  Granted, I now no longer take spine shots because it ruins to much meat, but I still take neck shots, especially on does, so that I purposely don't ruin too much meat.  No, there is really nothing wrong with the typical lung shot, but I do tend to prefer the "cleaner" neck shot because, in part, my eyes and my hands are still skillful and sharp enough to allow me to take such shots.

In addition, there are other times where precision shooting is required on big game at shorter distances.  Another such example is hog hunting.  I used to (and sometimes still do) hunt these tenacious beasts with guns as powerful as a .375H&H.  However, I have personally seen and witnessed many hunters shoot (and kill) big boars with the little .223.  How?  Well, they simply shoot the hogs right in their ear which leads to the brain.  And let me tell you, they go down like lightning.  Personally, I haven't used a .223 on hogs (at least not yet), but I have used shot a difficult shot with other cartrdiges such as the .270 Winchester, .30-06, 7mm Rem Mag, and others that I can't think about right now.  And these shots were around 100 yards or so too, and you know that the target the size of a hogs ear hole is quite small.  So, for such precision/surgical shooting, you need an accurate rifle.

I know that some people do not advocate head shots and neck shots.  That's fine, that is if it's aimed towards unskilled shooters.  However, for those shooters who are skilled enough, they are the best shots because not only do they generally ruin less meat, but they drop in their tracks and you don't have to try and find your animal over a long distance into thick cover.

Zachary 

[SHOOTALL]

Zachary , good point , on does at close range a head /neck shot is a good one ! i say close because head movement at a long distance is hard to overcome ! not your 100yard shot but longer , over the last year or so we have been warned about CWD , and not to open the skull, spine or bones in a deer , with this going on shot placement may become more critical  in the future than it is now ! the lung / heart might become the best shot or at least the safest !

[NONYA]

I wont carry a rifle into the field unless i know its MOA capable,with handloads and most of todays mass produced rifles this isnt asking too much.I shoot several does every year to fill the freezer and I kill them with headshots,I want to KNOW where that bullet is going to land at 300 yards,not wonder.

[SHOOTALL]

MONYA , you are a lucky man , some of the counties we hunt , we are restricted to buckshot , talk about wonder !
don't mean that as a cut just the difference in how much accuracy is needed in different areas of the country ! to us a 75 yd. shot is getting long , but the trees make it fun ! we have some fields that offer long shots , then with dogs and in a swamp 10 yds is the norm ! you will have to trust me on this but a lever gun , mini-30 or shotgun is the best gun for the job cause they come by at warp speed ! moa ?
enjoy the open country i hope to also someday !

[379 Peterbilt]

One thing I consider is that seeing most fellas strive for good accuracy should at least shed good light on hunters as a whole. Were we percieved as not caring if we can kill an animal cleanly, you know we'd get jumped by the anti crowds.

[beemanbeme]

I strive for accuracy in and of itself.  I enjoy tinkering with my rifles and tinkering with the loads.  To try and bring out the very best that is in the rifle (and me).  I would almost say that accuracy and hunting are two different things to me. To that effect, I have a T12 that I mount on most of my rifles when I am doing load development.  Once I have that done, I mount the scope that I intend to use for hunting.  And I much prefer a scope with a reasonable amount of power.  1.5x5, 2x7, 2.5x, 4x, etc. So I may be going afield with a rifle that is capable of MOA (or not) but I doubt that I will be shooting any sub-minute groups with a .300Savage with a 3X post and cross hair scope on it.  But it will certainly do a number on a deer.  For years my go to elk rifles were a .300winnie with a 1.5x5 on it and a 7mag with a 2x7.  I haven't a need for a scope that you can see the canals of Mars with.  I think they only tempt hunters into trying shots they shouldn't. 

[lucky guy]

I've been shooting shotguns more lately (trap, sporting clays) where the fit of the gun is very important for the ability to hit those pesky targets.  Different shotguns and different shells will vary a little on pattern size and density, but for the most part shotguns with similar chokes will shoot similar pattern sizes.  The difference in hitting or not depends alot more on the fit the shotgun; does it come up smoothly and easily, if you bring it up with your eyes closed is it naturally pointing in about the right spot; does it swing naturally for you.

I think the same is true for a hunting rifle more so than whether it will shoot .5 vs 2 MOA on the bench.  When you spot something you often don't have alot of time to get a round off.   In that situation, does the gun fit you; does the sight/scope naturally line up for you without alot of fiddling around, is the weight and balance right for you so that you can hold steady.  I have a 9422 in 22 lr that is not that impressive on the bench, but for me it's more deadly on small game than some of my other "more accurate" 22's.  JMO



 
 

[lilabner]

I agree with that man who said most rifles can shoot better than their owners can hold them. It is one thing to lock in on a target from a solid bench rest and another to shoot at an animal at an estimated distance from a field shooting position when you are short of breath from climbing the ridge. Under those conditions, the MOA groups you shot at the range don't mean much.  Zachary points out that situations arise where you must find a small hole in the brush and put a buillet through it. That is true, and if your rifle is sighted in for maximum point blank range, it is a difficult shot. Seems to me that it is better to sight in for 200 yards and hold over for the longer ranges. A rangefinder is helpful in open country. So is an adjustable sling and shooting sticks. A rifle that can shoot into an inch and a half or two inches is adequate for most hunting situations.  I handload and I am fussy. If I can't make a rifle consistently shoot MOA or better from a solid bench rest with 9X scope magnification, I don't keep  it. That doesn't make me a good shot, it just means I can't blame my equipment if I screw up a shot on game.

[40inarow]

A rifle's grouping ability is a subject which ought to have some generally accepted parameters. In these forums and in general, this is not the case. I do not buy a 3 shot group as a measure of a rifles performance, it ought to be 5 shots. Also, it should be "on demand." As in, "my rifle shoots 1/2 minute", ok - do it, right now, on demand. Not, it did a 3 shot group once that was 1/2 minute, it does it on demand. A SKS might do it once if you shoot enough groups, but it is a statistical aberration.

Check out www.benchrest.com, the 2003 Super Shoot results are posted. The Super Shoot is like the Super Bowl of benchrest shooting.  Look at the 10.5 lb "aggregates." These guys are shooting 5 shots "on demand", when the "fire" command comes, you shoot now, for score. Those that aggregate .25 are in the running. However, look at the field of shooters. You see most scores crowding the .40-.50 mark and plenty that go over .5 and .75.

If someone is serious enough to participate in the Super Shoot, it is reasonable to assume they are pretty good at  bench shooting. Also, the best on the planet are there shooting. In the same web page, there is an equipment list. Check it out. You're talking about custom single shot actions, benchrest barrels, 10.5 lb guns,  36x and up scopes, special stocks with 3" wide flat foreends, 2 oz triggers, specialty gunsmiths, 6ppc or similiar cartridges, highly prepped brass, custom bullets, and specialized reloading tools and techniques. Most of these guns  don't shoot .25 and are closer to .50 !!

Let's get our feet on the ground when talking about rifles and their groups.

Those that can take Ol' Betsy out and shoot .25 groups all day should go over and clean up at the Super Shoot. They'll get a wad of money, sponsors, free barrels, bullets, powder, scopes, and get paid to put their face in manufacturers ads.

[Graybeard]

And that has WHAT to do with a hunting rifle? Read the subject of the thread it's about HUNTING rifles NOT bencherest competition.

[safetysheriff]

I always wondered just how accurate does a regular hunting rifle have to be?  If it shoots 1 1/2" @ 100yds. is that adequate? 

So what do you think about this question?

Buckfever

Buck'

in my opinion a hunter should take his/her 'worst-case scenario' and choose a firearm and a load that he/she can shoot with positive results ( a 'clean' harvest) at whatever game is chosen,  at whatever distance the hunter can reasonably handle.   in other words, a poor shooter has no business attempting 300 yard shots at most game animals; and a Good shooter has no 'reasonable' business (?) shooting 170 gr' flat-nose bullets out of a .30-30 at prairie dogs that are 350 yards away!     the shooter, the firearm, the ability of the 'charged' brass case, and the ability of the projectile should all work in harmony to achieve a positive result.   if a rifle capable of 2" groups consistently at 100 yds(in the aggregate like one of the posters alluded to above), is shot at a large game animal at a distance of 150 yds' i'd expect with proper technique that 90+% of those animals would be 'clean' harvests.   i would not expect such a rifle to be useful on pronghorn, however, at 350 yds' with anywhere near a 90+% harvest rate.   

there is no simple answer to this unless one considers the host of variables that may apply to someone's 'worst-case scenario'.   

but, that's just my opinion,

ss'   

[40inarow]

I know it's about hunting rifles. That's the point. You have guys in these rifle boards and in the gun mags that take hunting rifles and talk about the small groups they shoot with them. Then you have people who read it who need to ask the question that started this thread, how accurate does a hunting rifle have to be ?

There is alot of "blue sky" out there when guys talk about small groups shot with hunting rifles. People read it, shoot their gun, get a 1 1/2 or 2" group and wonder if somethings wrong. There's nothing wrong but unrealistic expectations. To consistently get .50 groups takes way more than what most are going to put into any deer rifle. It looked like it would be helpful to note just what it does take to shoot under .50.

A deer rifle that shoots 1 1/2" on demand is  going to work just fine.