How accurate does a hunting rifle have to be?

[40inarow]

Excuse me, on my last thread the last line should have said that " it would work just fine."

Apologies.

[IOWA DON]

I had a 7mm Weatherby that would only shoot about 1.5 MOA, but got a couple antelope at around 400 yards with it. However, it seemed that I missed more coyotes than I would have with a more accurate rifle if the range was over 300 yards. Anyway, in my opinion it all has to do with the size of the target, and the trajectory and range of the cartridge. My 20-ga slug gun is good for about 2.5 inches at 100 yards. That is level of accuracy good enough for deer out to 175 to 200 yards, the maximum range of the Hornaday SST slugs I use in it. My custom .338-.378 Weatherby shoots better than 0.75 MOA and with it I've shot four deer at ranges further than that in conjunction with the use of a range-compensating reticle and a lazer rangefinder. More accurate is always nicer than less accurate, but if accuracy is good enough for the target for as far as the cartridge has an OK trajectory and  an adequate amount of killing power, that's accurate enough. My 800 fps pellet rifle has a 40-yard trejectory for small birds, but not enough practical accuracy for small birds at that distance. In my opinion it is not accurate enough.

[SHOOTALL]

From what I'm seeing , the better you are at hunting and closing with your target the less important it is to have a rifle that will shoot .5 groups at 300 yards , so i guess my 30/30 is ok cause off hand at 50 yards i can keep it at 2 inches , and off hand is how i shoot most of the time while hunting , and most shots are under 75 yards , most are under 35 yds here lately , now to be fair if a hunt comes along where the shot will be in the 150-250 range i would expect more from the rifle and would be hunting up a rest ! and yes i would expect alot more from myself ! bottom line it depends on what and where you hunt as to how accurate the rifle has to be ! Now i know some of ya'll hunt wide open places with bolt actions that are super accurate , and read the above and had a hard time with it   ( just like i have a hard time with 500 yard shots on deer , i know they are done we just don't get to do alot of it around here ) but we hunt river bottoms , swamps and beaver ponds and a short handi rifle with out glass works , alot of the time we are standing in water and a rest would be hard to find , no the trees and logs are touchy , the snakes like them on warm days !

[SuperstitionCoues]

How about as accurate as you want it to be?  Open ended, yes, but that is what it is all about.  What level of accuracy are you satisfied with, and how much are you willing to spend in time and money chasing a number that is or is not going to be relevant?  A dead animal is a dead animal - and that final outcome of a hunt is what will determine the correct level of accuracy.

[jmckinley]

  Heck every rifle i own is capable of shooting sub moa groups...Oh I forgot I only have one rifle right now and it's a Handi Ultra fluted in 223 with a Bushnell 32oo on top. I took it to the range yesterday something to do on my birthday (57). My first 4 or 5 groups were betwen 1 1/2  to 2 inches. Not the rifle the shooter was having a bad day. I readjusted the scope next 5 groups 3/4" to right around an inch. My point is this most rifle are more accurate than many of us can shoot. Most of the rifle i have owned all have kept 3 shoots between 1 and 2 inches if I could do my part. my custom 6.55x55 Mauser can and will keep 3 shots inside an inch allday. My 270 would keep 3 inside 2 inches regardless of the ammo. I loved them both and wish I still had them. Any rifle that shoots between 1-2 inches will allow me to take a game animal out to 300+ yards With that said we all like to think we can shoot like snipers but fact is very few of us can do it everytime we pull the trigger, for me 1-2 inches is great if i can do better thats fantastic but the older I get the fewer of those sub moa rifle seem to show up.   Jess

[ssghelmick]

I know it's about hunting rifles. That's the point. You have guys in these rifle boards and in the gun mags that take hunting rifles and talk about the small groups they shoot with them. Then you have people who read it who need to ask the question that started this thread, how accurate does a hunting rifle have to be ?

There is alot of "blue sky" out there when guys talk about small groups shot with hunting rifles. People read it, shoot their gun, get a 1 1/2 or 2" group and wonder if somethings wrong. There's nothing wrong but unrealistic expectations. To consistently get .50 groups takes way more than what most are going to put into any deer rifle. It looked like it would be helpful to note just what it does take to shoot under .50.

A deer rifle that shoots 1 1/2" on demand is  going to work just fine.

Amen Brother, My point exactly. I enjoy reading these forums because there are some great people of like minds here talking about stuff I'm into but I'm very tired of reading about how some guy bought a $400 off the rack rifle and a $10 box of ammo and it shot .25" groups the first time out. I'm a small arms instructor for the Army and I would love to go to the range with some of these guys just so I could pick up some pointers from them to pass on to my students.

I don't mean to sound jaded here but if every rifle shot MOA there would be no companies like Lilja or Krieger selling custom barrels or custom smiths because there would be no need for them because everyone could be a competition shooter with their favorite deer rifle.

[SHOOTALL]

ssghelmick , the odds are every so often one will come off the line that will be a great rifle , and some one will stumble on the factory load hat will make it shine , sort of a $ 450.00 lottery ticket with really long odds ! Add in hand loads and the odds get alot better , the ? is how many shooters are willing to set down at a loading bench and tweak a load !
This is supported  by the fact that most armies up until WW2 selected sniper rifles from standard production ! and used special ammo for sniper use !

[bigmac_au85]

Check out this article on Chuck Hawks' web site.  It tells it like it really is, IMHO.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/practical_accuracy.htm

[Coyote Hunter]

Amen Brother, My point exactly. I enjoy reading these forums because there are some great people of like minds here talking about stuff I'm into but I'm very tired of reading about how some guy bought a $400 off the rack rifle and a $10 box of ammo and it shot .25" groups the first time out. I'm a small arms instructor for the Army and I would love to go to the range with some of these guys just so I could pick up some pointers from them to pass on to my students.

I don't mean to sound jaded here but if every rifle shot MOA there would be no companies like Lilja or Krieger selling custom barrels or custom smiths because there would be no need for them because everyone could be a competition shooter with their favorite deer rifle.

Not every rifle will shoot MOA, but it’s amazing what a $400 rifle – or less – can do.

Here’s the first group I shot with a Remington M700 BDL .308 Win made in 1975.  The rifle became mine in November, 2005 for $350.  It was purchased used from Gander Mountain.  The interesting thing about this 9-shot 100-yard group is that every loaded round was unique – I had incremented the powder charge by 0.5g for each successive load.  The only work done to the rifle was to float the barrel.



That group was shot 1/14/2006.  Here’s one I shot with that rifle last weekend...



Last November I picked up a used Ruger M77 made in 1984.  It cost me $350 at a gunshow in Conroe, Tx.  The only work done to the rifle was to float the barrel and polish the trigger.  The first two groups shot with this rifle went 8 shots into 1.0” and 10 shots into 1.15”.  Not quarter-inch groups, but then again I used two different powders, BL-C(2) and H4350, and again everly loaded case had 0.5g more than the one that preceded it.  Here’s a group it shot last weekend.  Only two shots because I figured the elk was dead at that point...

 

Here is one more group, fired from a Ruger M77 made in 1989 and acquired by me in January of 2004.  I paid $400 for it and it came with a Leupold M8 4x in the rings.  Since I had just paid $100 for an identical scope, I figure the rifle cost me $300.  Again the only work done was to float the barrel and polish the trigger.



This kind of accuracy is not needed for hunting.  Frankly, a 3MOA rifle will do most jobs, but I wouldn’t keep a rifle that won’t do at least half that. 

[nomosendero]

Coyote Hunter, looks like you forgot to ask ole Chuckie Boy if a rifle could do this. I have a few that will also, though not necessary for alot of hunting, it does boost confidence.

[Sweet 6.5]

Nice shooting Coyote - if you can do this with "cheap"
rifles, just think what you can do with something over $400.
 

[Brithunter]

 Hmmmm I see that we have a member who has the float the barrel of every rifle which passes through his hands  . Well here is a 3 shot group shot with a 30-30 Winchester chambered rifle which does not have a floated barrel in fact the barrel is tightly bedded intot eh wood of the fore-stock, no filler just good stocking, the rifle is a bolt action made by a small independant maker and cost more than $400. The target was not shot using factory ammo I'll admit but good handloads:-



Sorry but I didn't measure the group size just photographed it, the target was one supplied in the range hire at Bisley's "Short Sibera" range.

   The point is that good fitting and bedding are more important than a floated barrel    as I see it floating the barrel is a  quick cheap way to get around using a quality properly cured stock blank and mediocre inletting. If you ever get the chance to see an old classic rifle out of it's stock check out the craftsmanship in the inletting. It's stunning just how perfectly those old world craftsman did their work. It sure astounded me the first time I saw it. This was on a Rigby sporting rifle from around 1900 and I have compared it now with a DWM made sporting rifle from around 1897. Cost is one reason by greed is a bigger factor     the pure greed for more and more profit whilst dropping service and quality to the customer.

[tuck2]

Coyote Hunter : I to like to pick up used firearms and give them a tune up and then develop reloads for them. I remove the barreled action from the stock ,blast the action out with brake cleaner then clean the barrel. I adjust the trigger down to about three pounds. Inspect the bolt locking lugs to see if  both lugs are contacting the action. Inspect the muzzle for dings. I correct the faults found then lube the action. My next step is to inspect the stock to see where the barrel and action is contacting the stock. I glass bed the action with one inch of the barrel and free float the rest of the barrel. For me it is fun to work on used guns and see them change from a three inch or worse groups shooter to a sub one inch shooter. Im at the age where Im a little shackey and use a rest of some sorts when hunting but I know the big game or varmint rifle will put the bullet where I wont it to go if I do my part. Over the years I have worked on 40 some rifles and all shot under two inch groups after the tune up and a few shot under 1/2 inch groups. But two inch groups at 100 Yds are fine for shots out to 300 Yds on big game.

[Cement Man]

It has been my experience that there are no absolutes in barrel bedding or free floating.  Full bedded, floated, or in between (tip pressure) all have advocates and examples of success.  I own rifles that are excellent shooters with all three flavors. I do believe though, that floating a barrel has the highest success rate and generally allows you retain the use of the stock that came on the rifle.  Some wood, although gorgeous, will forever be snaky and wild, and will change the POI and harmonics as it squirms about the barrel and changes contact if not absolutely stabilized or floated.  Makes most sense to me to float it. I don't automatically float everything though, but make that decision on a case to case basis.  Rangr 44 posted about his success story with a Win 70 Featherweight 6.5 Swede with tip pressure on the stock.
As far as floating being the product of greed, Brithunter, c'mon.  A lot of us are shooting doggone nice accurate rifles that are affordable due to manufacturing techniques, which frequently includes a floated barrel.  I'm glad for it.  Nobody appreciates old world craftsmanship more than I do.  I collect old pocket watches and old mausers - but I simply could not afford to pay for the wood you allude to and a craftsman to hand build a sporting rifle nowadays.  I am happy as all get out with my sub-$400 Savages that shoot sub MOA with their free-floated barrels.

[The Sodbuster]

We tend to evaluate our rife's accuracy at 100 yards.  In my case, it's because the closest range to me only goes out to 100 yards.  I suspect most public ranges are like that.  But I have had some opportunities to shoot out to 400 yards.  I've got a few rifles that will shoot inside 1" or 1.25" at 100 yards, but get out to 300 yards and beyond and it separates the wheat from the chaff.  Not all rifles that are sub-MOA at 100 yards will maintain that precision at 2 or 3 times that distance.  Some of my rifles can't consistently shoot better than 1.5" at 100 yards, but that still makes 'em shoot better than I can; and, I wouldn't hesitate to take any of them to the woods with me.

[Mac11700]

How accurate does it need to be...For whom...Each of us want a rifle that we can drive tacks with at what ever range we pull the trigger...Most try to achieve this..but..as ranges get longer our patience gets smaller and the groups get bigger...I like many want and expect my rifles to hit where they are aimed...hot or cold..rain or shine..on the bench..or off..and will accept groups larger than 1" past 100 yards for most big game rifles..but..not too much larger...I strive to shoot sub-moa groups at 200-600 yards..and will work very diligently to get myself..my rifle..and my loads to do just this...Not all of my rifles can hold these groups consistently ..and this does erode my confidence in them...so they stay at home when the yardages are going to be long.....and the ones that will shoot the best..go with me...I think if you & your rifle is capable of shooting a 5" group at 600 yards in all conditions.. it is well up to the task of taking any of the ungulates..but..I want mine to shoot better than that...Varmint rifles have to produce much smaller groups at this distances..and when the target is only a few inches across...it has to be very accurate..otherwise you will waste a-lot of ammo and not connect...

I do know guys who go and staple a paper plate up on a tree or fence post and just shoot at it...When they can put all of their shots inside the plate at what ever range they shoot at..consider it accurate enough...Of course these same folks only shoot paper plates before deer season..and never go to any range...They limit themselves to the distances they can achieve their goals...and that's what it is all about...staying within your own ability level...no matter what type of hunting it is...

Mac

[Brithunter]

Hi All,

       

As far as floating being the product of greed, Brithunter, c'mon.  A lot of us are shooting doggone nice accurate rifles that are affordable due to manufacturing techniques, which frequently includes a floated barrel.  I'm glad for it.  Nobody appreciates old world craftsmanship more than I do.  I collect old pocket watches and old mausers - but I simply could not afford to pay for the wood you allude to and a craftsman to hand build a sporting rifle nowadays.  I am happy as all get out with my sub-$400 Savages that shoot sub MOA with their free-floated barrels. 

       As so modern manufacturing techniques making things cheaper, actually tooling, good quality tooling is more expensive now that it has been. Sure you can get and use cheap CNC controlled machines with cheaper operating systems which all add up to mediocre quality. This cost cutting also means using semi skilled or unskilled labour in machine minders. The price difference between a machine capable of holding a tolerance of 0.0005" and one which can hold one of 0.002" is  huge then of course you need tempreture control and ideally coolant mist control and coolent recirculation to help maintain acuracy of the machine tools. The price difference between a "qualified" carbide insert tip and a normal Carbide Tip Insert is also quite large. Having been out of the Engineering workplace for the last few years I am not up to date with prices I am sorry to say.

      Now accountants like to cut cost and do not mind cutting corners to do so in my experience. Buyers also do the same and one particular one liked to find cheap materials which he claimed were equivilent to those which we had always used. Trouble is that it does not often work out to be the same and in our case prooved much more expensive in the long run as this new high quality cheap material prooved to be nearly impossible to form so the job which normally took about 3 days to run instead took 10 days and then required further machining operations to bring the part up to a presentable finish.

     Yes they love to cut costs to further increase the profit margin in the short term at least, often though these cuts cost the companies customers due to drop in quality. Gone are the days of reasonable profits, the great God excessive profit rules!

    As for good wood, yes I do love good wood and in fact do not own any plastic or synthetic stocked rifles although only one or two of my rifles have what one could call "well figured wood". I am very low income especially now that I full time care for my parents so I look out for good deals and in fact am going soon to pick up a .243 BSA Majestic Feather weight which has the BESA recoil reducer fitted, this rifle is about 45 years old and has reasonable wood on it, I am paying £200 for it which is about $400 US but please remember that prices are higher for just about everything here in the UK.

[Coyote Hunter]

Hmmmm I see that we have a member who has the float the barrel of every rifle which passes through his hands  . ...

   The point is that good fitting and bedding are more important than a floated barrel    as I see it floating the barrel is a  quick cheap way to get around using a quality properly cured stock blank and mediocre inletting. If you ever get the chance to see an old classic rifle out of it's stock check out the craftsmanship in the inletting. It's stunning just how perfectly those old world craftsman did their work. It sure astounded me the first time I saw it. This was on a Rigby sporting rifle from around 1900 and I have compared it now with a DWM made sporting rifle from around 1897. Cost is one reason by greed is a bigger factor     the pure greed for more and more profit whilst dropping service and quality to the customer.

Floating the barrel has worked for every bolt gun I’ve tried it with.  The great thing about floating a barrel is it costs me absolutely nothing but a few minutes of my time and some elbow grease.

Old classic rifles are kind of like horses – they’re nice to look at but I don’t care for the expense.  Custom gunwork is also outside the realm of where I want to be spending my money.  $400 for rifles that shoot great are fine with me.

[sabretip]

My M700 35 Whelen shoots under an inch and so does my M700 in 7x57. Somedays they shoot better when I do my part and when the groups open up a bit I know it's not the rifle.

[Brithunter]

Hi There,

Floating the barrel has worked for every bolt gun I’ve tried it with.  The great thing about floating a barrel is it costs me absolutely nothing but a few minutes of my time and some elbow grease.

Old classic rifles are kind of like horses – they’re nice to look at but I don’t care for the expense.  Custom gunwork is also outside the realm of where I want to be spending my money.  $400 for rifles that shoot great are fine with me.

      Well I have found the opposite, brought a NIB P-H 1200 Super in 7.92mm (yep 8x57 Mauser) stripped it and cleaned and noticed that the bedding was not very well finished, this particular rifle was it seems made for a special export order and completed during a take over and the quality of the fitting suffered as a result. These were sold off as over-runs but I wonder if it was rejected? Anyway as P-H now longer exist as a company I set about trying the rifle out and as suspected accuracy was iffy. So I tried a little bedding compound and added just a little too much resulting in a free floating barel. Oh well may as well try it.

     The resulting range test told me that this rifle hates a floated barrel groups were in the 8" range at 100 yards. So I tried adding card shims under the fore tip and kept adding them until the groups tightened up to around MOA. Now as I wanted to achieve this with no visable signs I decided to have the job doen professionally by a skilled gunsmith who specialises in regulating rifles. When returned the rifle will shoot with Privi Partisen 196 grn SP ammo about 1 MOA and similar with S&B 196 Grn SPCE. I was working on lighter handloads until the Police decided that I can only use certain of my rifles....... the 7.92mm is not one on my licence at this time for range use or hunting........... Yeah I know stupidity at it height!

     Anyway at least I know that I can grab a box of factory ammo if needed and rely upon it delivering the bullet to the vital area of a Deer. Sure I would like to get a handload which will shoot consistantly at around 3/4" but let's face it it's not a Varmint rifle and the quarry it's intended for is larger.

    Now as to the expense of classic rifles ................................. well it's all relative! Most of my rifles have cost around the £200-£400 region with possibly only two being more. I say possibly as the DWM came through a converluted deal involving the trade of 3 rifles and the purchase of 4 and I am only certain of the cost of one anf that's the bespoke 30-30 Bolt action which cost a lot more. It's my one indulgence if you like. It's the only one of it's kind and I don't know why it came onto the open market but it did and I fell for it. Fpr price comparisin the price of a new Remongton CDL is £633 ($1202US) and the 700 VSS starts at £699 ( $1328US) and with those sort of prices taken for dealers adverts I might add! classics are not expensive.

[Coyote Hunter]

... Fpr price comparisin the price of a new Remongton CDL is £633 ($1202US) and the 700 VSS starts at £699 ( $1328US) and with those sort of prices taken for dealers adverts I might add! classics are not expensive.

For price comparison, I was at Sportsman's Warehouse in Aurora (a Denver suburb) Saturday.  New Ruger M77 MKII's, blue/walnut, for $469, chambered for various cartridges.

[Brithunter]

Sorry to say that we are not allowed to shop at the same place even on-line. The patriot act makes buying any gun related stuff very difficult for those of us outside the US.

[SuperstitionCoues]

My opinion isn't measured in numbers, but is more philosophical - strange for a scientist to say, but true. 

When it comes to field accuracy vs. bench/range accuracy, how accurate a rifle needs to be can be summed up with statement of:

As accurate as it needs to be for a humane kill. 

You may read into that statement whatever you want.  It places a lot into the hunters judgment at the time and place, something no one else should question unless they are at the shoulder of the hunter when he or she fires. 

[warf73]

I obtain hunting accuracy off the bench for all my hunting rifle. All my rifles shoot hand loads.

I first work up a load that shoots great off the bench, I strive for sub 1” groups which isn’t hard to get.

Then once I know the load/rifle combo is a shooter the rifle never sees the bench again. The rest of my shooting is all off hand, like in most my hunting situations.

I use 2 liter bottles setting on there side as my targets and I shoot off hand from different ranges varying from 50-120+ yards as practice.

If I miss I know it’s me not the rifle/ammo combo.



Warf

[burntmuch]

I like the idea of 2 liter bottles  . Try hitting that off hand at 150 yards. doesnt matter how much you paid for the rifle, them crosshairs are still gonna wander around.  Jay

[SHOOTALL]

If ya have meat for the pot , your rifle must be good enough !