Author Topic: Another Sad Accident (Read 2247 times)

LooseCnnn · « **on:** December 22, 2006, 08:47:46 AM »

Saw this one online yesterday. High school football teams cannon explodes injuring one of the operators.
While there are no specifics about what exactly caused the accident, it does mentioned that they had x-rayed the barrel sometime prior to the accident and a stress fracture was found!
(Warning: article features a rather graphic pic of the injured youth's leg wound)

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/296584_cannon20.html

EL Caz 66 · « **Reply #1 on:** December 22, 2006, 09:36:46 AM »

This is why adult supervision is so important.... $:-\$

GGaskill · « **Reply #2 on:** December 22, 2006, 09:59:28 AM »

Hard to understand why they continued to use it after finding a crack. Some adult made that decision. What we really need is intelligent supervision.

dominick · « **Reply #3 on:** December 22, 2006, 10:57:02 AM »

Quote

He helped roll the coffee table-sized artillery piece to the field where he and two other cadets packed the barrel with about 5 ounces of gunpowder.

The article reads about a coffee table sized cannon using 5 ounces of powder? It appears as if the cannon was grossly over charged or the barrel was on a very small carriage. 436 grains per ounce x 5 ounces is over 2000 grains of powder. And that's not taking into consideration whether or not the barrel was constructed properly. And the stress fracture adds to the whole mess.

jeeper1 · « **Reply #4 on:** December 22, 2006, 11:19:12 AM »

Quote

Some adult made that decision.

That dumb (insert a bunch obscenities here) ought to be prosecuted for reckless endangerment at the very least, if not attempted murder. Considering the reaction of the students and school authorities, it may well have been attempted murder.

GGaskill · « **Reply #5 on:** December 22, 2006, 01:36:33 PM »

The article reads about a coffee table sized cannon using 5 ounces of powder?

That seems to be a heavy load but if it were a 2.5" bore gun, that would be the "recommended" charge for a blank load at 2 oz per inch. Hard to tell without more information. This kid was lucky; the last event like this in Oregon killed the operator.

5toolman6 · « **Reply #6 on:** December 22, 2006, 03:12:16 PM »

More info:
http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=9152915&blogID=177215024&Mytoken=2239671E-14B0-4E61-813A2E85E51BE10630744419
"The cadet was Brett Karch..... The back end of the cannon had completley exploded. The wheel on Karch's side split into pieces, one or more of which shot into his leg, causing a compound fracture."

"I'm sure all of us went home and shed some tears, beat ourselves up. Alot of us hold ourselves responsible. I think the cannon exploded because we over-packed it. I was the one who kept egging him on to pack the cannon."

Rickk · « **Reply #7 on:** December 22, 2006, 03:27:54 PM »

this is a bit scary of he was just shooting blanks of 1F in a reasonable sized bore with no wads or anything.

I hope more details come out.

Double D · « **Reply #8 on:** December 22, 2006, 04:30:05 PM »

Be interesting to see the results of the accident investigation. I see two glaring items that stand out.

The stress fracture and "the packing it in" a lot of questions to answered around those two items. The other sidebars about the form of the cannon drill and supervision.

I would also like to see an organized Cannon Team start the first football game of the next season with the injured kid as the gun Capt. Anybody up the in the PNW upto it!

I'll add this to are cannon accident post.

jgalar · « **Reply #9 on:** December 22, 2006, 05:41:29 PM »

Didn't it say in the article that the canon was made by the students in shop class?
Threats or no threats I would be taking legal action against the school.

Don Krag · « **Reply #10 on:** December 22, 2006, 07:14:48 PM »

They made a new one in shop class after the old one "gave out" in the mid '80s. Hmmm.....who's doing the engineering on these?

GGaskill · « **Reply #11 on:** December 22, 2006, 07:39:14 PM »

Hopefully they can continue the cannon firing tradition but maybe someone should suggest that they go with a breech loading gun firing 10 gauge black powder blanks so there is no on field decision made about how much powder is loaded.

dominick · « **Reply #12 on:** December 23, 2006, 05:45:26 AM »

Quote

Hopefully they can continue the cannon firing tradition but maybe someone should suggest that they go with a breech loading gun firing 10 gauge black powder blanks so there is no on field decision made about how much powder is loaded.

Good idea George.

reyn 61 · « **Reply #13 on:** December 23, 2006, 05:53:58 AM »

This is interesting. One of our local high schools ROTC guys roll a cannon out on one end of the field at every football game. They fire it every time the team scores a touchdown. This thing is loud and i would think it weighs a couple hundred pounds easy. They have been doing it as far back as i can remember which is at least 20yrs. I never thought about it exploding. I dont know what the procedures are for loading and if its supervised or not. Its about the size of a large 4wheeler and is part of the team mascot.

dominick · « **Reply #14 on:** December 23, 2006, 05:55:51 AM »

Quote

That seems to be a heavy load but if it were a 2.5" bore gun, that would be the "recommended" charge for a blank load at 2 oz per inch. Hard to tell without more information. This kid was lucky; the last event like this in Oregon killed the operator.

George, I thought it was 1 ounce per inch.

Double D · « **Reply #15 on:** December 23, 2006, 06:27:35 AM »

National Safety Rules and Procedures
for Shooting Muzzleloading Artillery, as adapted by the American Artillery Association March 2000

1. Powder charges should not exceed 2 oz. of Fg or 3 oz. FFA or Cannon Grade Goex powder per inch of bore diameter. No excessive charges. Use black powder only.

2. Prepare powder charges in advance using heavy duty aluminum foil. Baggies may be used inside the foil, taking care not to allow excess air in the baggies and removing excess plastic where unnecessary.

N-SSA National Rules for Cannons

10.8.1 CHARGES
Maximum powder charges for all cannon shall be limited to that amount permitted by the chart as published below in Table 10.1. Only commercially manufactured black powder of American standard Fg granulation (150,000 granules per pound/ or 220 granules per 10 gr. wt. (avdp.) sample), or a coarser granulation, may be used. Charges must be wrapped in a powder “bag” fabricated of at least one complete layer of heavy-duty aluminum foil.

For specific load for you bore refer to N-SSA National Rules for CannonsTable 10.1. Page 71 of 194 int he PDF file.

Moderator note: These rules applies only to guns over 2 inch bore. For guns smaller than 2 inch THE MORE COMPLETE CANNONEER compiled Agreeably to the Regulations of the War Department as published in "Artillery Drill" by George Patten, 1861 and Containing Other Observations on Antique Cannon By M.C. Switlik with selected excerts from other artillery manuals Appendix I has a load chart which is posted her by permission of the author.

This load chart is maximum load of a unpatched ball attached to a sabot.

Addendum For mortars and howitzers the the diameter of the powder chamber is the considered the bore diameter.

GGaskill · « **Reply #16 on:** December 23, 2006, 06:45:15 AM »

reyn 61,

Do your guys a favor; take a copy of this news report to them and offer to inspect their gun (use a high intensity flashlight to look down the bore.) And inspect their loading procedures, too.

Double D · « **Reply #17 on:** December 23, 2006, 07:00:09 AM »

Better yet open your copy of Switliks The More Complete Cannoneer and learn how to build a inspection mirror. I'll bet that design could easily adapted to a miniature Video camera.

dominick · « **Reply #18 on:** December 23, 2006, 07:15:12 AM »

I use cannon-mania or kennesaw cannons powder chart for small bores. They appear to be appropriate powder loads for small bore cannons. George is correct for a 2.5" bore cannon, but "IF" the Snohomish cannon was a smaller bore, then they used too much powder. If that is the case, then the charge along with the split barrel was a disaster waiting to happen.

Double D · « **Reply #19 on:** December 23, 2006, 08:52:11 AM »

Dominick I would be carefull using the Cannon mania chart which has been copied by Kennesaw. Stick with Switliks chart it's safer. Those loads on Switliks chart are MAX loads!

Cannon Mania has simply adapted th 2 oz per inch rule for guns over 2 inch and computed it for smaller calibers..

dominick · « **Reply #20 on:** December 23, 2006, 10:50:56 AM »

Doug, The Cannon- Mania and Kennesaw charts required that a ball load be cut in half. Example: 1" bore (wad only) =438 grains or 1 ounce. If ball is used, then cut amount in half which is 219 grains per 1" bore. That is in the parameters of the Switlik chart for ball loads. If what you are stating is that the Switlik chart is maximun for "wad only" also, (maximun load) then I stand corrected. (Actually, the Switlik chart is about 180 grains per inch so even the cannon-mania "divided by two" rule is a little high) My question then is: How much more powder, if any, can be used for a wad only charge, using the Switlik chart?

Double D · « **Reply #21 on:** December 23, 2006, 04:04:57 PM »

The Switlik Chart is MAX load there is no Wad only load. The recomendation for a blank load is just to use the max load with a wad.

The Cannon Mania/Kenneshaw charts are ambigious and dangerous in that you do not know that these wad only loads right off. You have to read the fine print at the bottom of the chart to determine the ball laod. Human nature being what it is you know very few people are going to read past their bore diameter on that chart. Kenneshaw proves that theory as they just post the Cannon Mania chart without the fine print.

Switlik is a credible source, Cannon mania, well they are Cannon mania.

reyn 61 · « **Reply #22 on:** December 23, 2006, 07:21:18 PM »

Quote from: GGaskill on December 23, 2006, 06:45:15 AM

reyn 61,

Do your guys a favor; take a copy of this news report to them and offer to inspect their gun (use a high intensity flashlight to look down the bore.) And inspect their loading procedures, too.

Will do.

dominick · « **Reply #23 on:** December 24, 2006, 06:43:34 AM »

Quote

The Switlik Chart is MAX load there is no Wad only load. The recomendation for a blank load is just to use the max load with a wad.

The Cannon Mania/Kenneshaw charts are ambigious and dangerous in that you do not know that these wad only loads right off. You have to read the fine print at the bottom of the chart to determine the ball laod. Human nature being what it is you know very few people are going to read past their bore diameter on that chart. Kenneshaw proves that theory as they just post the Cannon Mania chart without the fine print.

Switlik is a credible source, Cannon mania, well they are Cannon mania.

Thanks Doug, Good Info.

Santa Dave · « **Reply #24 on:** January 13, 2007, 08:08:22 AM »

During his hospital stay, this cadet recieved threats and such from people who seemed to think he'd done on purpose to shut down the cannon tradition.
On Jan 12 the local paper reported that this person has been arrested and charged.
Santa Dave

rusty barrels · « **Reply #25 on:** January 13, 2007, 08:45:36 AM »

I live outside Seattle and I watched the news report, what was left of the gun sure looked strange. The barrel looked like it was strapped attached the the carriage, the barrel end was still intact to the carriage while the breach from the strap back was gone along with part of the wheel on one side. It sure looked like the barrel was too thin to be shooting it at all.

Santa Dave · « **Reply #26 on:** January 20, 2007, 08:15:40 AM »

1. it seems one can figure out why the cannon exploded! (The ATF has been invited in)
2. The gal who made the threats had another axe to grind and the threats had nothing to do with the cannon or football!
Aways shoot safe!
Santa Dave

Santa Dave · « **Reply #27 on:** January 27, 2007, 07:57:07 AM »

The Cannon has made it to a "lab"(undefined) for examination.

The load for a 40 mm cannon was 2 nylon bags containing 1.7 oz each

WOW!

Dave

Terry C. · « **Reply #28 on:** January 27, 2007, 07:06:31 PM »

40mm = 1.5748"

3.4 ouces in this bore is a gross overcharge by anyone's charts. And that's assuming a gun in good firing order, not a piece of questionable construction that has a documented stress fracture.