Handi rifles being priced out of the market?

[Swampman]

A Rossi is too expensive at any price.  If you want a boltgun caliber (rimless) get a boltgun.  If you want a single shot caliber (rimmed) get a Handi.

[S.E.Ak]

If I could afford all Ruger #1&3 thats what I would have but a couple Rugers and a bunch of Handis will do. I like singles and like being able to take a couple different barrels on a hunting trip and no bolt fits that need or want for me no matter the price.

[Spanky]

I like the rimmed rounds for my handi's too Swampy. the lone standout is my 7-08 handi... it ain't rimmed but it shoots good.



Spanky

[wreckhog]

BB, I too have to wonder about your original posted question. The bottom line is, well, the bottom line. It is just plain expensive to be a manufacturer in the USA, and going to get moreso very soon. Unlike farmers, they arent going to keep doing it if they are slowly going broke.
Not to get off on another tangent here, but it is related more than most realize, the money supply was recently doubled, and is being fed into circulation. What backs it? Only the faith and trust of those who use it. This means each dollar we have is now worth half as much. As the markets absorb this, prices (inflation due to the devaluation) will go up. It has happened throughout history with every culture that has gone the route of fiat money.
'The only thing we learn from history is that we learn nothing from history'.

Are there any countries left that use precious metals as money? Everyone prints paper, the key is a growing economy to back it. Unfortunately, except for China, nobody has a growing economy right now. In 50 years, scholars get to look back and debate communism vs capitalism, lucky us, we get to see it in real time. I think that we are paying a premium for Handis to be built in the NE USA. That's OK, they aren't too $$$ yet.

[bikerbeans]

A quickee search indicates the Savage Edge is built in the US of A.  Please correct me if I am wrong on this.

BB

[Mac11700]

A quickee search indicates the Savage Edge is built in the US of A.  Please correct me if I am wrong on this.

BB

You are correct..the are built in Westfield, Massachusetts, USA..and besides the few super Savage fan boys who do reviews of the Savages,no-one is saying they are a great rifle for the money yet... Even so, the Handi still offers more versatility than this rifle.It's going to be a while before any different stocks are made with the integral trigger guard and recoil lug,and the same for adjustable triggers metal magazines.If and when they do though,it looks like another good platform to build on.As a starter gun,sure..it's cheap enough,and if they sell a bunch of them,we should be able to pick up a couple used ones next year for the price of a New Handi..if the dealers even bother taking them back in on a trade.. Of course this won't matter to those here who never bother using one of the best features of the Handi..and that being able to easily change barrels out to any that has been fitted correctly to their frame 

Mac

[bikerbeans]

Mac,

I guess my point to all this is without the Handi being cheaper than an entry level USA bolt gun the first time buyer/shooter is more likely to opt for the repeater.  I have seen a few of the low end bolt guns at the range and they are generally being shot by younger shooters.  I have seen only one younger fellow with a Handi in the last year and it was a present from his dad.  I believe Illion understands the $$$ involved better than I do, and since they import Russian singleshots and have the 770 Rem Bolts in the same price range, I suspect they may be willing to let the Handi die on the vine. 

BB

PS:  I really like the 30-06 Edge because a friend of my son bought one and it would NOT chamber Lake City 1969 vintage ammo.  Guess who was given the 240 rounds the kid bought and couldn't shoot!   My handi loves the 147 grain FMJs.

[Mac11700]

I honestly don't think the Handi will die a slow death BB..I know way too many Conservation districts that use these rifles to teach kids how to shoot.

What matters more is what the parent is willing to buy and what the local gun stores are planning to push. Many smart parents these days actual go on line and see what is being recommended so it's natural they search out those places that talks about what they are looking at. You would not believe how many parents I talk with from my church and from my work about these rifles. Sure..I tell them about all of the starter bolt guns,namely because they usually ask about them. A-lot of them go buy them too..not just the Savages..but the Marlins and Remington's as well..but quite a few of them get the guns for their children that the Conservation officers recommend around here..and that my friend is the Handi rifle. It is a rifle that a child can grow into and use not only for deer hunting,but rabbits,quail,pheasants,ducks,turkey,hogs,and any varmint they want..With todays economy the way it is,and more and more single parents than ever before..it's still the best bargin going for multipurpose use that is American Made.
A lot of BS has been said about needing a different frame for every rifle..and that is exactly what it is BS. Sure it might serve 1 person or 100 better to have a whole safe full of rifles,but not a kid starting out that the parent that has to spring money to set up kid/s. I'm not talking about most guys here that have 15 or 20 rifles for the kids to choose from or get handed down to them neither..but for most kids who's parent/s might not even own a gun. I talk to people like this every week at work and church,out shopping,and to those single Moms usually who are struggling to make ends meet,or with both parents barely able to keep their heads above water but still want their kids to be able to go hunting with either their scouting friends of relatives,stretching their dollars the farthest is something they have to do,since they can't afford a whole lot to begin with.A-lot of these parents are scared of guns..really scared sometimes..I've seen it first hand. Show them a bolt gun..then show them a Handi..they will gravitate to the most easiest gun for their kid to operate and safest..This is why the Conservation districts love them..People here especially those who have more than 1 or 2 Handi's forget what it's like to just start out..These are the kids we need in our sport..Yes..we also help keep these rifles alive by doing so..

No..I don't see the Handi dying on the vine any time soon..I just see more and more cheap bolt guns coming to market trying to compete with an established rifle.For someone who just wants a rifle..it's not important to be able to switch barrels out and so these folks will usually go with the cheapest rifle they can get..but if you actually ask them if they ever intend to buy a shot gun or different caliber and they say yes..then the Handi just makes more sense if money is tight.I know Remington can always change that..they have done stupider things before,but I don't see them intentionally killing it off.It still is a money maker to them..

I guess I am a little passionate about them..but I know as a parent I would rather have my own kids learn on a single shot than on a repeater..and fwiw..both of my boys like my Handi's..even when they had Remington bolt guns to shoot..They learned the value of best bang for their bucks when I made them help start paying for their own guns..and they love the challenge of a single shot gun..They have become better shots because of them.

Mac

[revbc]

+1 Mac,

I hope you are right.  These Handis are versatile, light, short, safe, good lookin, and just plain handy.  But I think the Savage Edge is going to make a splash; however, only time will tell if it is a wave or just a ripple.

Nothing against the bolt guns, just bought a couple myself, did not buy the edge.  Found a nice 110FP savage tactical, but I am not new to the sport.

[necchi]

A-lot of these parents are scared of guns..really scared sometimes..I've seen it first hand. Show them a bolt gun..then show them a Handi..they will gravitate to the most easiest gun for their kid to operate and safest..

That speaks volumes. Add to that the simplicity of care. New shooters are notoriously poor gun cleaners.

 Then old school folks like myself. Teaching shooting sports to new shooters is all about making one shot count, it's an easy argument, given Hollywood and video games they've been raised with,,one cold shot.

[bikerbeans]

Mac,

Just got a call from a nonshooting friend who's 16 year old son wants a rifle.  He starting asking me about magazine capacity, what caliber etc.  I talked him into meeting me at Bass Pro tomorrow and hopefully they will have a H&R Rimfire on the shelf.  I think I need to take my friend and his kid to the range and let them both shoot, one person at a time, one round at a time. 

My concern with the Handi's has to do with having worked for two different companies that where bought out by Venture Capitalists or Private Equity or whatever name they are going by these days.  They make all their decisions for two reasons, the immediate bottomline and how pretty they can make the pig within their 36 to 60 month resale window.  They want all the $$$$ they can get immediately to pay for the purchase of the company (since they didn't actually use any of their own money to buy the company) and they want to fluff the thing up for resale.  They consider whatever product the companies make to be "Widgets" and have zero concern for anything but profit.  IF they make more profit on imports over a brand that is made stateside then the stateside operation will be gone. 

BB

[Mac11700]

Mac,

Just got a call from a nonshooting friend who's 16 year old son wants a rifle.  He starting asking me about magazine capacity, what caliber etc.  I talked him into meeting me at Bass Pro tomorrow and hopefully they will have a H&R Rimfire on the shelf.  I think I need to take my friend and his kid to the range and let them both shoot, one person at a time, one round at a time. 

My concern with the Handi's has to do with having worked for two different companies that where bought out by Venture Capitalists or Private Equity or whatever name they are going by these days.  They make all their decisions for two reasons, the immediate bottomline and how pretty they can make the pig within their 36 to 60 month resale window.  They want all the $$$$ they can get immediately to pay for the purchase of the company (since they didn't actually use any of their own money to buy the company) and they want to fluff the thing up for resale.  They consider whatever product the companies make to be "Widgets" and have zero concern for anything but profit.  IF they make more profit on imports over a brand that is made stateside then the stateside operation will be gone. 

BB

You got to compare apples to apples in a case like this. The H&R brand has always been the leader in USA made single shots..Even if it is sold off..some one will buy it and they still will make Handi's..Why..because there is a market for what they sell,provided the quality doesn't go in the toilet. Taurus can't hardly give away the Rossi's..and they are really the only competition the Handi has at this price point for what they are.I honestly doubt this company was bought to be sold off in pieces..nor will they raise prices to a point that most will forgo buying them.They may well want to raise profits some..most big companies do that,but most market analyst worth their salt would caution them on raising prices too high,or cheapening the rifles any less than what they already are. Right now,the Handi's sales are strong,and they have a good following,if they wish to mess with that,then there is nothing we can do except ride it out and see what direction it heads. I wouldn't start playing chicken little just yet..folks have always worried about this in any transition H&R has gone through 

Mac

[briannmilewis]

I sit here, centerfire rifleless, reading this entire topic. I opened the topic because I was wondering if there was a discussion about the possible impact the Savage Edge may have on Handi sales. My experience with Handis is exactly one 22 Hornet, and what a rollicking good time my two sons and I had with that rifle before we had to liquidate our shooting stuff to pay bills. Well, I recovered enough financially to restore all my reloading stuff plus a used Marlin 60 semi-auto 22. A centerfire rifle is my next purchase.

I agree with everything said about Handis, but it does not discount in any way what I have been reading on the web from a variety of sources about the Savage Edge. There is plenty of first-hand evidence after about 2 months of sales, that the Edge will more than likely shoot 1 MOA out of the box with at least one off-the-shelf ammo, and many are reporting 1/2 MOA or better using factory ammo too. It just can't be all BS, because the owners are amazed that such a cheap rifle could possibly produce such accuracy. They never expected accuracy that good for the price point.

As the Edge has the barrel nut system, it lends itself to easy and cheap rebarreling, and therefore some level of customization beyond the factory caliber offerings.

So looking ahead to what rifle I will spend my first $300 of fun money, whenever that happens, the Savage Edge makes a very compelling argument.

Then what about the Rossi Wizard? Non-factory fitted barrel swap for $165/barrel and $300+ for a complete rifle.

Too many darn choices...America, what a country!

[Mac11700]

Where is all of these reviews on this rifle..? There really isn't much out there discounting Wakeman's and a couple others that folks can really go on. While getting 1/2"  groups out of the box would be outstanding,I'll wait and see how well they are doing in a few more months when enough of them are being shot and talked about on most forums before I believe that is the norm for them. If they do as well as what many believe..then they should be a excellent starter bolt gun for folks..and a lot better than the other cheap bolt guns that are showing up. As too being easy to change barrels,there are many who won't even bother..heck..many here don't and it's a whole lot simpler to change a Handi barrel than a Savage.

Mac

[bikerbeans]

Mac,

I'm done, let's here about your new H&R 30-06!

BB

[Mitch in MI]

You got to compare apples to apples in a case like this. The H&R brand has always been the leader in USA made single shots..Even if it is sold off..some one will buy it and they still will make Handi's..Why..because there is a market for what they sell,provided the quality doesn't go in the toilet.

That's historically accurate. H&R was sold off in bankruptcy. The buyer called it NEF and the rifles lived on.

BTW, Mac, what other barrels are you looking to put on this frame?
Off the shelf or more custom jobs?

PS:  I really like the 30-06 Edge because a friend of my son bought one and it would NOT chamber Lake City 1969 vintage ammo.  Guess who was given the 240 rounds the kid bought and couldn't shoot!  My handi loves the 147 grain FMJs.

147gr military 30-06, not 7.62x51? I thought all the M2 ball ammo was 162gr or thereabouts.

[bikerbeans]

Mitch,

I was told it was 147 grain, didn't get the original container.  I will pull one and weight it.

thanks

BB

[Spanky]

Mac's feeling better.



Spanky

[Mac11700]

You got to compare apples to apples in a case like this. The H&R brand has always been the leader in USA made single shots..Even if it is sold off..some one will buy it and they still will make Handi's..Why..because there is a market for what they sell,provided the quality doesn't go in the toilet.

That's historically accurate. H&R was sold off in bankruptcy. The buyer called it NEF and the rifles lived on.

BTW, Mac, what other barrels are you looking to put on this frame?
Off the shelf or more custom jobs?

PS:  I really like the 30-06 Edge because a friend of my son bought one and it would NOT chamber Lake City 1969 vintage ammo.  Guess who was given the 240 rounds the kid bought and couldn't shoot!  My handi loves the 147 grain FMJs.

147gr military 30-06, not 7.62x51? I thought all the M2 ball ammo was 162gr or thereabouts.

I would love to have a nice stainless 45-70 or 444 for it..and am waiting on a nice forum member to check on a cut down 45-70 BC barrel he has that he might sell me..If I get that one..I'll send it out to Wayne to be Cerrakoted the same as my 30-06 barrel..It is possible for 1 more full custom job as well before I am done with it,but I am trying to get a custom stock and forearm built first before that.

BB..would love to make a range report on it..the weather was for crap today here and I wasn't feeling real good this morning or afternoon to start reloading..I might go ahead and go if it isn't pouring down all morning tomorrow and shoot some 150's and 180's Fed factory ammo..just for the sake of pulling the trigger on it for some here..The real testing will be when my good friend stops working a ton of overtime too and we can get out to his 400 yard club's range..Let's see if all the T-storms are done in the morning.I might even get to shoot one of these new Savages since he's thinking of getting one in 308..

Mac

[Spanky]

Your's is bound to be a good shooter Mac and the Savage probably will too.



Spanky

[bikerbeans]

Mac,

Hope mother nature cooperates and you can send a few down range tomorrow. 

Mitch,

I weighed the bullet I pulled from the 30-06 Lake City '69 and it was 149.8 grains, a 150 grainer.  For grins I measured a case and it is 63 MM, but I already knew that cause it didn't blow up my gun.   BTW, it had a approx. 100% full case of a nice ball powder, probably the same stuff that gunked up the M16s in SE Asia.

BB

[wreckhog]

Handis unique in that there are a lot of low cost parts out there to assemble and reassemble. Just slapped together .357 barrel from GBO, forearm from?, base from Numrich, Swedish 4x scope with cool command post reticle/low rings from yard sale, hammer ext from?, receiver/buttstock/recoil pad from 158, TC takeoff front sight, BSA laser from junked air rifle and Coke can shim. Essentially built a .357 mostly from stuff just gathering dust. All I need is a folding rear sight and some sling swivels to finish it. Who knows, might tear it down before it ever sees a range. That is part of the fun.

[Mitch in MI]

BB: I looked it up and learned something. The M1906 was 150gr flat base. The M1 was 173 or 174gr boat tail. The M2 of WWII and later was 150-151gr FB, pretty much the equivalent of the original load. The M2 Armor Piercing (black painted tip) was 163-168gr, which is where I got confused. Match ammo is often about the same weight as the AP if I recall correctly.