Author Topic: It just won't group  (Read 1693 times)

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Offline mid-western

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It just won't group
« on: September 23, 2006, 04:26:33 PM »
I am having trouble getting my rifle to group.  Is there a "magic number" of rounds you have to shoot through a new barrel (to break it in) before it will hold a tight pattern?  I have shot about 50 or 60 rounds using 180 and 150 gr. bullets, and neither will shoot in a 4" circle consistently at 100 yds.  I am shooting at a range off of sand bags.  The rifle is a Winchester M70 Stainless Classic 300 wsm.  I have a Leupold VX-3  3.5-10x40 scope with the B&C reticle on the rifle.  All mounts and rings are tight. Could the barrel be a "Lemon"?   
 
Any advice/suggestions would be appreciated.

Offline jvs

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Re: It just won't group
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2006, 10:52:25 PM »
Make sure all of the screws that hold the wood to steel are tight...Not over-tight.  Keep your scope magnification down to 4 or 5 to start with.  See if you can figure out how heavy the trigger is, you might be flinching in anticipation of that Magnum going off.  See if metal is rubbing wood down in the channel.  Change ammo.  Some rifles just dont like Core-Lokt's.  Try 165 gr.

Other than that, a trip to a qualified gunsmith might be necessary to check the Crown, Bore and Headspace.  At this point, no rifle should be shooting in excess of 4" groups.

 If you want to run with the Wolves, you can't Pee with the Puppies.

Offline victorcharlie

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Re: It just won't group
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2006, 02:17:53 AM »
Could be a lot of things......but for starters I'd bed the action, float the barrel and work the trigger........Most of the time that's going to help.........
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."
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Offline nasem

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Re: It just won't group
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2006, 03:03:26 AM »
4" groups with THAT rifle ? wow, my ak-47 with a bushnel gets those kind of groups at 100 yards.

My only suggestion is, get a friend or someone else you know, who can handle magnum calibers and have him / her (:)) shoot at 100 yards, see what kind of groups they are getting

Offline kyote

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Re: It just won't group
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2006, 03:22:04 AM »
I have found that some times it is me and not the rifle or the other stuff i am using.Try this if you want.and see what happens.set up your targets and gear.do not put any ammo in the rifle.now with every thing you got, dry fire the rifle at least three times.when the hammer falls nothing should move.your scope picture should not budge.if it does.well,you need to set up better and your bench manners are lacking.and do not put your hearing protection on and listen closely when you pull the trigger.you might hear a noise that is not supposed to happen.an you just might see the movement in the rifle that should not be there.hope this helps.
my huntin rifle is safe from confiscation only while my battle rifle protects it.

Offline Zachary

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Re: It just won't group
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2006, 04:14:33 AM »
Could be a lot of things......but for starters I'd bed the action, float the barrel and work the trigger........Most of the time that's going to help.........

I agree.  However, 4" groups are huge!  Rather than spending money to try and fix something THAT BROKE, I would just sell it or trade it in, and get another rifle.

If, however, you have some emotional tie to this rifle (for whatever reason), and thus really want to fix it, then it's gonna cost you some serious money.  Why?  because it could be just about anything.  Yea, you can try doing work piece meal, but, with 4" groups, it's gonna cost you some serious bucks to get it to shoot 1" groups.

The things is, the stock that you have is plastic junk (just like I have), so bedding the action on that kind of stock is not going to be as effective as bedding it on a McMillan or HS Precision stock.  But you will spend about $300 or more on  such a stock right off the bat.

Of course another idea would be send it back to Winchester.  Problem is, there is no Wincehster anymore. :'(

Zachary

Offline Don Fischer

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Re: It just won't group
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2006, 05:06:30 AM »
Just a though, how well do you shoot with other rifles?
:wink: Even a blind squrrel find's an acorn sometime's![/quote]

Offline poncaguy

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Re: It just won't group
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2006, 06:09:21 AM »
I just got a  Winchester Super Shadow 300WSM ( $400 Wally World) I cleaned it well, removed and replaced stock, and just snugged the screws. Has a Bushnell 3x9x40 Trophy scope. Shooting Winchester Ballistic Silvertips, 150 grain.getting 1/2"--3/4" groups.I know the scope that came with it,a Simmons 8 point, was loose, and so were the base screws. Those are the things I would check out. I was worried about the recoil, but it wasn't bad at all, I may even get brave and try a 325WSM next........ ::)
"

Offline jro45

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Re: It just won't group
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2006, 07:20:00 AM »
Before I'd give up I would clean the barrel real good take the copper out. Then I'd try again. Some rifles don't like to much copper others don't care.

Offline NFG

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Re: It just won't group
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2006, 08:04:30 AM »
Maybe a little more info on your shooting skills is in order.  Shooting off sand bags if you don't know how isn't very effective.  This is what I do to a new rifle or old one for load development, to "check it out".

50 to 100 rounds should knock the bark off the bore and smooth it up enough to start shooting half way decent for FACTORY barrels.  Polishing with 200 strokes of Flitz and a fairly tight fitting cleaning patch on a jag before firing any rounds also works well.  I usually use up the odd amounts of powder and bullets to break in a factory barrel along with polishing with Flitz combined to equal 50 to 75 rounds.  You can feel the bore smoothing up and I quit when it gets "just right".

Take it to a 'smith if you don't feel comfortable working on guns.

First, clean the barrel well with any of the newer cleaners.  I now use or have used just about every cleaner the market has produced including Wipe out, Butches Bore Bright, Tm, Shooters Choice, Montana Extreme, Flitz, Iosso, J-B and new one called KG12 I found on the 6mm Benchrest site which is so good I can't hardly believe it.  Clean down to bare metal, then shoot a few to see how many you need to foul the bore evenly.  Usually 2 to 3 is sufficient, then fire that many before you start shooting for group.  An extremely clean or dirty bore won't shoot the best.

Tighten all the screws:  Scope base, rings and receiver, and make sure the scope is good.  Swapping in another scope sometimes speaks volumes.

Run a business card down the barrel channel.  If it touches mark the spots so you can clean up the channel.  The cards are about 0.012" thick.  I like about 0.030" on my shooters.

Are you using factory or reloads?  If reloads, are you building them and are you experienced or novice.  Bad reloads can make for patterns not groups.  If factory, try another brand.  You need to be more specific about the group size.  Saying every brand shoots 4" groups doesn't convey much information either.  What brand shoots what size with what bullet at what velocity and where on the target.  MEASURE the groups and write the information on the targer.  Very few 150 or 180 bullet shoot to the same point of impact.

Have the trigger tuned or replace with an aftermarket.  I like Jard because they are cheap and work, but I also have Canjar, Shilen, factory Rem 2 oz, Timney etc.  I set mine to 1 1/2 lbs so all my rifles are consistent.  No guessing.

The recoil on the 300 WSM isn't hardly enough to worry about, just slightly more than an '06, except if you believe the hype or weigh 100 lbs soaking wet.  If recoil bothers you get a nice Limbsaver recoil pad installed.  I love them and almost all my rifles wear one.  Recoil is more in the mind than in the rifle, arguably, but a nice soft pad works wonders in that department.

I use a 20 or 36 power scope for load work up on any of my rifles when I'm working up loads and a 2 or 3" target dot.  You need to see what your are shooting at to get the best results.  I can't even see a 1" dot at 4 power anymore at 100 yds.  Even my 45-70 and 416 Taylor get the Leupold 6-20 or Weaver 36 when developing loads.

Keep your eyes open, both of them, and learn trigger control.  Spend 15 to 20 minutes each night dry firing to see just how much you jerk around.  The sight shouldn't move off the target when the firing pin goes click.  If it moves, where it stops is where the bullet would have impacted on the target.  And, learn breath and heart beat control.  You can't shoot straight if you are puffing and panting and your heartbeat is banging the rifle around.

My recommendation, unless you can 'smith yourself, is to shoot a few 3 round targets with the bullets you want to use, then take the rifle to a competent 'smith with the targets and seperated brass also.  If he isn't interested in the brass or targets, find another 'smith.  Both will tell a very interesting tale.  But be careful that he isn't just trying to sell you a new barrel job.  Get several opinions.

I would guess the barrel is OK and solution lies else where, but you never know until you work through the many solutions.  Don't let an "expert" pump you full of smoke.  Blaming a barrel is usually the first thing pointed at and most of the time the last actual problem. 

I would suspect doing the barrel channel clean up, trigger job, recoil pad and maybe the scope change, will solve the problem. 

Finding the right bullet, powder, primer and seating combination would be the second part of the accurizing process.  Keep diligent ACCURATE written records, no BS or ego stroking.  Now days factory premium ammo and a factory rifle should shoot into 1 1/2" right out of the box, but that is not always the case.  Read as many articles as you can find on 300 WSM tests to see what the "pros" came up with, but remember they work for the factories indirectly.

I used to accurize rifles for free, just for the information and experience and because I kept the unused components or any tools etc I needed to do the job, well over 200 over the years and if I couldn't reduce the groups by half of more, it truely was a lemon and a new barrel was the only recourse.  I can remember only about a half dozen that went the new barrel route.  My goal, depending on the caliber, is 1/2" for up to 6mm, 3/4" for up to 338 cal, and 1" for anything above 35 cal.  I've been able to hit those numbers or slightly smaller almost 90% of the time.  It takes patients and know how and keeping the ego and temper in the freezer.  You can't do well if you are trying to prove something or get pi**ed and throw tantrums when things don't go right.  I could tell you stories...but I won't.

Lastly...don't jump around trying this and that.  Set up a plan of action, think of the rifle as a system with several component groups.  Scope and mounting, barrel, trigger group, bolt and action, stock, etc.  Start with the scope and mounting, fire a few groups, do the barrel channel, fire a few groups, do the trigger, fire a few groups, lap the bolt, fire a few groups, all the time writing good notes, keeping your targets and practicing good breath and trigger control and reloading techniques.  Besides learning something about your rifle all the repetition will teach your muscles something also.

Of course all this good information means ****  if you're not up to doing it or just want to play on the 'net...

Nothing I stated is ment to offend, just my way of talking straight.  If it fries your tater, well.....
I've been doing this thing for half a century and learned a few things.  I try to pass that information on, but you know the story about the horse and water.
       
Let us know more information if you are serious.

Offline nabob

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Re: It just won't group
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2006, 10:26:23 AM »
I'd also check copper fouling. I thought I was cleaning my 7600 really well by using Hoppe's Bench Rest copper solvent every eight shots. Never could get it to group and four inches is an awfully familiar thing to hear. I cleaned it out with a really good copper solvent and got all kinds of stuff out.  By the third shot after that cleaning, the gun was shooting sub MOA.


Offline Cement Man

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Re: It just won't group
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2006, 11:44:19 AM »
I certainly would not get rid of that rifle without checking over many of the good tips that you got here.  It could be any, many, or a combination of some of the noted possibilities.  That rifle - with the factory stock and the scope you have should be shooting close to MOA or better.  But, you have to look at everything.  I may have missed it, but not sure if the barrel crown was mentioned.  A burr or defect on the crown can also blow up your groups.  Inspect your crown. It's not an expensive item for a smith to redo or polish up.  Be aware of protecting the crown in your cleaning methods. 
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Offline mid-western

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Re: It just won't group
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2006, 08:32:59 PM »
Sorry I didn't have enough time last night to give more info.  (Don't tell my boss..I was at work) 

I have been hunting most of my life...at least 40 years of it anyway, so I'm not new to handling firearms.  I use all of my guns to hunt and do not spend hours at the range.  Most of my hunting has been restricted to small game and Whitetail Deer here in Indiana.  When I was younger, I hunted with a shotgun exclusively...even for squirrels.  There was something about killing as many as I could and a shotgun was easier I guess.  As I "mellowed" somewhat (or got older) the challenge was gone so I switched to a .22 for about everything.  (Only “head shots” count when we tell each other how well we did for the day.)  Then came my .17 HMR!  I just love it!  Someone asked, "how well I shoot other rifles?"  I have a penny with 4 holes in it out of 5 shots at 100 yds. ...well it is 1 big hole now I guess.  The .17 is a sweetheart!  I also hunt with, and have taken several deer with my 50 cal. Muzzle loader.   

I do not reload (yet) so my ammunition is factory loads.  This model 70 is the first center-fire rifle I have owned.  I used Winchester Super-X 180 grainers (a little cheaper) to sight in the scope when I bought it.  I originally had a Burris 3-9x40 scope on the rifle and thought it might have been some of the problem.  So I put the Leupold on it…not much change…just a little clearer.  I had the trigger worked on after the first trip to the range.  It seemed like it was 6-8 lbs out of the box…probably not that bad…but it was pretty stiff and had way too much creep.  The gunsmith would not take it below 3 lbs. so that is where it is now.  He said, “This is a hunting rifle and I will not go lower than 3 lbs.”  But he did take the creep out which was a big help.  He also installed a “Kick-Eze” recoil pad. 

 I bought this rifle three years ago to go on an Elk hunt.  I did kill a 6x6 bull with it but he was only about 60 yds. from me.  I used Federal 180 gr. Trophy Bonded Bear Claws to take the Elk.  I was not happy with how those shot in the rifle either, but it was new and I thought it would get better with more use.  This year I drew an Antelope tag in Wyoming so I got some Winchester Supreme Ballistic Silvertip 150 gr. shells to use.  At the range the best I could do was 2 shots in a 4” circle (out of 10 shots) at 100 yds. And there would be “flyers” all over the paper.  By that I mean one might be 6” high and left 3”…the next maybe 3” low and 2” right.  It seems to be getting worse.  I did consider that it might be me, so I had another shooter at the range try his luck and he could do no better.  This guy does a lot of bench rest and competition shooting so he should be much better at the bench than I am.  I would post a picture of a target here if I could.

I cleaned the barrel as good as I could, but maybe the copper might be causing part of it.  I will get some of the copper solvents mentioned here and see if that helps.  I haven’t used anything like that so far.

Today, a friend of mine suggested I call Winchester so I guess that is my next move.  He said he had a problem with a rifle he had once and they replaced his barrel free.   

I’ll keep you posted as to how this turns out.  I do like the looks and feel of the rifle…just wish it shot better.     

Offline victorcharlie

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Re: It just won't group
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2006, 04:50:05 AM »
Good luck getting someone at Winchester to answer the phone........the New Haven Conn. plant that produced those rifles closed it's doors on April 15th..........I'd sure be interested to know what they do if you do manage to talk to someone.

Another thing I'd try is taking the scope, rings and base back off the rifle and remount the scope making sure there is no oil on the scope or rings or under the bases.....Lock tite it all with blue locktite.........if you have another scope try it......could be a scope problem.....try the scope on another rifle if you can......

Also, loosen the stock screws and lightly bump the butt to make sure the action is all the way back in the stock and tighten the front screw first.......

I suspect the rifle can be a shooter but you'll have to work with it.........it doesn't have to cost a fortune as you can bed the action yourself for around $20 and float the barrel for a little bit of pocket change........

Necessity is the mother of invention........

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Offline jvs

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Re: It just won't group
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2006, 11:44:22 AM »
Did you buy this rifle new?  Or was it used?

It sounds like one of those that somebody played with and got rid of.  Not that a bad one can't get through every now and then, but this one sounds more and more like the barrel is shot out.  You may also be a victim of a dishonest gun dealer, who knew it was a lousy rifle and sold it anyway, after getting it back from someone else.

If no metal is touching the stock anywhere, you need to see a good gunsmith.
 If you want to run with the Wolves, you can't Pee with the Puppies.

Offline Slamfire

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Re: It just won't group
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2006, 05:01:23 PM »
Once you've tried all the accurizing trick, give up! Some rifles never shoot, no matter what you do to them. I must be the only person with a sour shooting Model 96 Swedish Mauser. I tried all the tricks, floated the barrel, bedded the action, shortened the barrel, changed stocks, tried every factory load, and some proven reloads, even played with the seating depth of the bullets. 4" round groups was the best I ever got. The barrel was an arsenal replacement, with little rust and a tight bore. I gave it to my least favorite grandson. He never shoots at anything farther than 100 yards, so he don't know it's a lemon.  ;D
Bold talk from a one eyed fat man.

Offline nasem

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Re: It just won't group
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2006, 05:44:05 PM »
you guys, he did say that this is his first centire fire rifle, so I am thinking its flinch from that magnum recoil.  Im sure he is a heck of a shot with .17 hmr and his .22 but his accuracy "might" be flinching just before pulling the trigger. 

My brother went through the same darn thing.  He shot and loved his .22 LR for over 7 years, and the first gun he bought (thanks to me) was a winchester 70 sporter in 30-06.  He was shooting 180 gr remington cor-lokts and man, he never got less than 3-4" groups @ 100 yards.....  I went to visit him in North Carolina and I easily got 1-2" groups infront of him with his winchester, and Im pretty sure if he lets me burrow his rifle for few months I can shrink that down to just about an inch.  I think the problem was that he was so used to having no recoil from a .22 LR, that when he pulled the trigger on the '06 and punished him, he thought "man....this baby hits back" lol

Offline mid-western

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Re: It just won't group
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2006, 07:11:25 PM »
Good luck getting someone at Winchester to answer the phone........the New Haven Conn. plant that produced those rifles closed it's doors on April 15th..........I'd sure be interested to know what they do if you do manage to talk to someone.

For information concerning Winchester firearm parts you can contact USRAC Winchester Parts at:
Winchester Firearms
3005 Arnold Tenbrook Rd.
Arnold, MO 63010
800 322 4626

Please call our Arnold, Missouri facility for parts orders and service information. They are open 8:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m., Central time, Monday through Friday (except holidays).

If you are asking about parts for older guns or for a firearm we do not currently sell, please visit the Obsolete Parts and Service listing. We also provide a listing of Authorized Service Centers.
 
  If your question remains unanswered, please call our Consumer Department directly at: 800.333.3288 or 801.876.2711


I called and talked to a technician there and he told me to send the rifle in and they would correct the problem...it may need a new barrel.  He said it should shoot much better than that...we all agree on that at least.  He said to remove my scope, rings, mounts, sling, and bi-pod before shipping it.  Now I don't know if I should try the things NFG and others have suggested or send it to them???  I don't know how much they will charge for what ever they do?  I bought it new...but it is 3 years old now.

Offline Don Fischer

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Re: It just won't group
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2006, 07:26:13 PM »
Do yourself a favor and first send it to USRA. You got good advice but the problem is , no offense, you don't sound like you have the experience to apply it. Keep going and you will but for now with a problem, let the manufacturer put it back on the right road.
:wink: Even a blind squrrel find's an acorn sometime's![/quote]

Offline mid-western

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Re: It just won't group
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2006, 07:34:44 PM »
Thanks Don...I was leaning in that direction.  I'll ship this week.

Offline jvs

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Re: It just won't group
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2006, 08:36:20 PM »
Before you send it back, try shooting it without the bi-pod on it.  You said you were using sandbags, now, all of a sudden, you say there is a bi-pod on it. 

You may be creating stresses on the stock/barrel with a bi-pod.
 If you want to run with the Wolves, you can't Pee with the Puppies.

Offline mid-western

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Re: It just won't group
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2006, 08:51:57 PM »
I added the bi-pod to hunt in Wyoming.  The range work was done before I put the bi-pod on it. 
I got a nice Antelope in area 89 but the rifle didn't hit close to where I aimed.     

Offline victorcharlie

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Re: It just won't group
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2006, 03:03:02 AM »
Yep....I'd send it back......glad you have a place to send it......did they say how long to expect before they return the gun?
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."
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Offline NFG

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Re: It just won't group
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2006, 08:16:09 AM »
That's much better, I now know you're experienced and already done a couple of recommended "fixes".  I would suggest that you get a can of "Wipe Out" and clean your barrel completely.  Follow the directions explicitly.  I've used it since it first came out.  As I stated I've used just about every cleaning product the market has produced and my cleaning product shelf is full and sagging with products I no longer use because they have been replaced with Wipe Out and KG12.  They both work.  It takes a couple of "overnighters" with Wide Out to really clean a badly fouled barrel though.  Once thouroughly cleaned most of the present cleaners wil keep the barrel pristene with an occasional 2-4 hour soak with Wipe Out. 

This will eliminate that one problem completely.

My experience comes specifically from two "Hotrocks" and many "my rifle won't shoot" hunters.   A 22-243 Midd and  6mm-284.  I "cleaned" after every 20 -25 rounds with Hoppe's and after each hunt with Sweet's until the blue was gone...I thought.  Both these rifles started shooting 1" or larger groups after putting many hundreds of rounds into one ragged hole.  I thought the barrels were shot out and pulled the barrels and stuck then in the used barrel bucket.  Ten years later Wipe Out came to the market and I bought 3 cans.  First thing I did was put my 338-06 in the cleaning cradle and grab the Midd and 6mm barrels and give them all a squirt.  The next morning I poured out a dark purple sludge from every onto a rag.  Couldn't believe what I was seeing.  I thought I was keeping my barrels perfectly clean.

It took 3 more treatments on the 338-06 and 6mm and 5 more for the Midd to get all the crud out.  I did some barrel swapping and put these 22 and 6mm barrels back on their original actions.  I would like to say it was like a"new engine in a can" but...it did reduce the groups back to 3/4" or slightly below and I got another few hundred rats but the barrels finally did give up.  The 338-06 was still putting 5 into a quarter so the treatment didn't effect the accuracy one way or the other, but it did clean it, then and now.  The same thing happened to 20 or more other barrels that wouldn't shoot and I sold/traded quite a few cans of Wipe Out.  Should have become a dealer.  I only use it for overnighters so time isn't a factor.  Shooters Choice or Butches takes care of the cleaning on long varmint days.  I don't clean bores during hunting seasons for larger game, but the larger calibers get squeaky clean Wipe out scrub and LPS 3 or rust proofing with the same products I use on my lathe and mill before being put away until the next season.

I'm not trying to sell Wipe Out, but it does work, slowly, but effectively.  KG12 is another.  It's expensive, $12 a 4 oz bottle or so, doesn't take but a few drops, water based, doesn't have to be "killed" like some other cleaners, cleans as effectively as Wipe Out with about 20 or so stokes and you are good to go.  "Try it, you'll like it" ;D  Get it at 6mmBenchrest.

One other thing to do.  Measure the throat on your rifle.  Maybe some of your friends have a Stoney Point gauge or you can make one simply enough.  OAL seating is very important and can make or break a group.  I have a TC Encore 22-250 setup right now to rechamber out to 22-243 because the throat is about 0.150" too deep.  60 gr bullets won't even touch the lands and stay in the case, a 223 heavey barrel Handi-Rifle and a Sav heavy barrel 308 with the same problem.  I also have a Sav 300 WinMag with the opposite problem, it's throat is too short.  Factory 150 gr Rem ammo will chambe,r but it engraves the bullet.  It shoots well enough, but I want to shoot the 200 gr bullets.  To get them to seat in that chamber puts the base of the bullet way too deep into the case.   It is even worse with factory ammo because most factory ammo has a SAMMI OAL or shorter.

Factory rifle come with bad barrels.  3 years ago I bought a Rem Sendero 25-06.  While I was checking it out I looked into the chamber and saw a ring around the shoulder midway between the neck and shoulder junction.  When I put a magnifier down into the chamber the ring turned ou to be a groove cut into the metal.  The reamer must have had a burr on it.  It went back to Rem and the returned rifle shoots as good as some of my earlier benchresters.  The quality control, which is run by the bean counters not the gunsmiths, is so poor no wonder the Europeans are kicking our collective arses.  It is cheaper to fix after the fact than to produce excellence at the beginning.   So....

If you can sent it back to Win, then do it.  I wouldn't even think about it much less "Go to the net" and I wouldn't waste my time trying all the suggested "Fixes" until I got the rifle back and tested it.  Once you can verify the accuracy potential, then is the time to work on those little things that keep squeezing the groups down.  I would bet a case of your favorite libation you will get back a tack holer.

Trying to analyze a problem over the net is like trying to stuff foam back in the can...Usually not as effective as grabbing the little bugger by the short and curlys with a mike in the other hand.

As you said, once you get to a certain point in your abilities, you either go to smaller and smaller or larger and larger calibers.  The thrill is gone, your needs and aspirations change, things that were once oh so important become moot and uninteresting and you now know you have moved on to new and greater things.  8) ???

Good luck and Enjoy



Offline RLB

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Re: It just won't group
« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2006, 01:22:24 PM »
Copper fouling maybe?? I have a MII in .257bob that will shoot good maybe 3-4 shots after that they start opening up pretty wide...I have to use a brush and some rusted duck to keep it shootin straight at the range.....


RLB......

Offline jvs

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Re: It just won't group
« Reply #25 on: September 29, 2006, 11:39:46 PM »
I believe this rifle has Torque and Harmonics issues, on the screws that hold the stock to the metal. 
 If you want to run with the Wolves, you can't Pee with the Puppies.

Offline ScoutMan

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Re: It just won't group
« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2006, 01:39:39 AM »
See if copper fouling is an issue. Clean thoroughly with a good copper solvent like "Sweets" or "Wipeout".

If that's not the solution, your still ahead of the game.
If you can get closer, get closer
If you can get steadier, get steadier.

A telescope helps you see; it does not help you hold and squeeze.-Jeff Cooper