Author Topic: Why loss of accuracy in German Weatherby?  (Read 861 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Jasper243

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 32
Why loss of accuracy in German Weatherby?
« on: September 08, 2006, 01:12:13 PM »
My father-in-law has a 257 Weatherby mag that used to shoot 1/2" or better.  He did alot of load development 20 years ago to find the best, and has never changed.  The gun has not been shot much, and only 2-3 times per year for the last 10 - 15 years (verify zero and shoot a deer or two).  Now we cannot get it to shoot under 1 1/2 inches....The gun is bedded and barrel floated.  We have tried 2 different scopes on it, but same result.  I checked the crown, thoroughly cleaned it and removed any fouling, checked mounts, etc.  What am I missing?  Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Jasper243

Offline handyman06

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 58
Re: Why loss of accuracy in German Weatherby?
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2006, 03:19:07 PM »
have you considered copper fouling?

Offline Val

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 846
Re: Why loss of accuracy in German Weatherby?
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2006, 03:36:51 PM »
Is the ammunition you recently shot, new loads or old loads? If old, possiibiliy the ammo has changed do to storage conditions, etc. If they are new loads, possibly the current powder has changed as compared to the older powder. I would suggest that maybe you go through load development again.
Hunting and fishing are not matters of life or death. They are much more important than that.

Offline Jasper243

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 32
Re: Why loss of accuracy in German Weatherby?
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2006, 03:41:56 PM »
Handyman06-

After a thorough cleaning with Hoppe's No. 9, I cut patches from the Lead Away cloth from Kleen Bore, which removed even more crud.  Would this method of cleaning have taken care of a possible copper issue, or do I need to use a specific copper solvent?  The bore looks GREAT right now....Is copper fouling noticeable to the eye?

Thanks for your help.

Jasper243

Offline Don Fischer

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1526
Re: Why loss of accuracy in German Weatherby?
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2006, 04:30:19 PM »
Run a wet patch of Hoppe's thru the barrel and let it set 10 or 15 min. Then run the patch thru again. If there is copper, you'll get green or blue on the patch. You can also take a flashlight and look in the muzzle and see copper in the lands if any is in there. Could be a lot has built up over the years. For that everybody has their own cleaner, I like "sweet's".
:wink: Even a blind squrrel find's an acorn sometime's![/quote]

Offline Zachary

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3713
Re: Why loss of accuracy in German Weatherby?
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2006, 05:37:18 PM »
Can't be the cleaning, or lack thereof.  He says that the gun was shooting 1/2" groups and then started shooting three times larger at 1 1/2" groups.

It has to be the ammo.  Something must of happened to it - somewhere, somehow.  Either reload your recipe with fresh powder, etc., or try various factory ammo.

The only other thing that I can think of is that something has happened to the bedding OR maybe your scope mounts are loose, but it can't be a cleaning issue.

Zachary

Offline R.W.Dale

  • Trade Count: (22)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2170
Re: Why loss of accuracy in German Weatherby?
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2006, 07:36:49 PM »
Quote
Can't be the cleaning, or lack thereof.  He says that the gun was shooting 1/2" groups and then started shooting three times larger at 1 1/2" groups.

 It most certianlly can! My CZ527's accuracy just kind fell off all at once to a rather dramatic degree. That's when I noticed a fair bit of copper buildup, Several treatments of bore paste later and accuracy is as good as ever.

 The very high intensity magnums (AKA .257Wby) are somewhat more prone to copper fouling than slower chamberings.

Offline handyman06

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 58
Re: Why loss of accuracy in German Weatherby?
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2006, 08:32:03 PM »
in my experience copper can be seen, but oftentimes it can't at least with my eyes. if you use a cleaner that contains amonia it will chemichally dissolve the copper. i used hoppes 9 years ago and as best as i can remember it claimed to remove copper but i couldnt tell it did much of anything, but i did'nt let it soak 15 min like don suggested. like don i use sweets 7.62, as soon as you open the bottle the amonia just about knocks your head off! just run a dampened patch through the bore about 4-6 strokes and follow with a dry patch. continue untill the wet patches come out white instead of green. its best not to use a brass rod as it will react with the amonia and you get green patches untill eternity. you'll probably get a ton of copper out of it if its never been cleaned this way and that may or may not help, but it shouldnt hurt. sure hope this helps. when you figure it out let us know what it was, you've got me curious.

Offline jvs

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1539
Re: Why loss of accuracy in German Weatherby?
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2006, 10:53:43 PM »
My father-in-law has a 257 Weatherby mag that used to shoot 1/2" or better.  He did alot of load development 20 years ago to find the best, and has never changed.  The gun has not been shot much, and only 2-3 times per year for the last 10 - 15 years (verify zero and shoot a deer or two).  Now we cannot get it to shoot under 1 1/2 inches....The gun is bedded and barrel floated.  We have tried 2 different scopes on it, but same result.  I checked the crown, thoroughly cleaned it and removed any fouling, checked mounts, etc.  What am I missing?  Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Jasper243

This sounds just like what a friend of mine went through with his 6.5 mm Mag.  He didn't shoot it much over the years and he held a tight pattern for most of that time.  Then all of a sudden, accuracy fell off to almost 2" groups at a hundred yards.  Since he is a stickler for details, that 2" group didn't sit well with him.  He likes a tighter pattern, especially since it shot fine before..

Well......after asking around, including in the Gunsmith Forum here at GBO, we finally tracked down the problem.

Apparently, after a few hundred shots, those small bore magnums have a tendancy to erode away the inside of the barrel where the cartridge seats in the bore.  Everytime you fire those things, there is a little more space and a little less steel around the projectile.  Eventually the gap grows big enough that in the first milliseconds after firing the gap allows the gas to slip past the sides of the projectile, which throws off accuracy and ft/lb of energy to a degree.  A Gunsmith with a bore-scope can tell you almost immediately if this is the cause.  I'm told that this almost looks like a 'cottonball' of erosion, where most of the fire and pressure exists.

If this is the case, rebore to a bigger caliber, replace the barrel, or live with it.  My buddy sent his rifle back to the manufacturer for a new barrel. 
 If you want to run with the Wolves, you can't Pee with the Puppies.

Offline Jasper243

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 32
Re: Why loss of accuracy in German Weatherby?
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2006, 01:21:46 AM »
Thanks to all for taking time to reply...When I find the problem, I will let you know what it was!

Jasper243

Offline Rogue Ram

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 356
Re: Why loss of accuracy in German Weatherby?
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2006, 06:38:45 PM »
I have the exact same problem with an FN commercial Mauser. Haven't shot it in several years, went to sight it in for a pig hunt, and its spraying the target in an odd manner. Everything is tight, etc.  Blue printed, pillar bedded, etc etc. So started running standard Hoppes thru it.  :o  Don't ask me how it got this dirty sitting in a safe for a few years. It took dozens of Hoppes-patches, followed by brushing (I prefer Rem Clean or JB), to get to the copper!! Used Hoppes Bench Rest, and dozens more patches. Copper fouling eventually appears to be gone. I have not had the chance to go shoot again to see what occurs. I did however use a light and a magnifying glass to see the end of the muzzle and examine some odd marks in the barrel....smith tells me what I am seeing are the marks made when they made the barrel. It appears, that while this was a nice commercial Mauser, my bore, contrary to what everyone says, is certainly not chrome lined and was never hand lapped.

I either have to live with it or smith will help me try to lap it.  He has a bore scope so that might be interesting to see. I guess my point is that unless I am getting older than I think and am forgetting cleaning my guns, I wasn't getting it as clean as I thought I was, and maybe you just need to clean 'er up big time and see if that works.

Regards,

RR

Offline jvs

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1539
Re: Why loss of accuracy in German Weatherby?
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2006, 09:38:41 PM »
Believe it or not, it is possible to over-tighten your screws.  Especially the one that runs through the forearm.  If that forearm screw is over-tightened, you will never get it to shoot small groups.  Tuning a rifle with the screws means you have just enough torque without applying stress.  Face it, the only reason those screws are there is to keep the wood attached to the metal.  Not for pulling the metal down to meet the wood.

Many things need to come together to have your rifle shoot small groups.  Over-tighteneing those screws can only make things alot worse.
 If you want to run with the Wolves, you can't Pee with the Puppies.

Offline Questor

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7075
Re: Why loss of accuracy in German Weatherby?
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2006, 01:06:36 AM »
The barrel could be worn out.
Safety first

Offline Mikey

  • GBO Supporter
  • Moderators
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8734
Re: Why loss of accuracy in German Weatherby?
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2006, 05:37:46 AM »
jasper - jvs and Zachary have given you some excellent tips.  Those small bore magnums wear out quickly and if the rifle was used for load development their might be some accuracy loss but not if she shot right the last couple of times you took her out. 

Copper fouling can be seen, sometimes, in larger bores but it's difficult to pick up with the nekked eyeball in the smaller bores.  You can easily tell if you have copper fouling just by running either an ammonia soaked patch or a Windex (with ammonia) soaked patch down the bore.  If she comes green you got copper.  Straight ammonia may be a bit tough on steel if you leave it sit but the Windex stuff works pretty well and is milder.  Just takes longer.

Also, you ammo could have gotten old.  It's happened to me with handloads that shot moa the last time I took the rifle out (? number of yrs ago.....) but it got old somewhere along the line.

Another thing too about cleaning your barrel - lots of times after you've run the last patch down the bore and it looks clean and dry, wait another day or so and run another dry patch down, sometimes bores will 'sweat' soaked in or caked on dirt, etc. for a day or two after a shooting and cleaning.  When that bore has been properly cleaned it should be so 'mirror-like' when you put a light to it that it is difficult to see the rifling.  Then load up some fresh ammo and give a try. 

One of the posts also mentioned erosion and with those small bore magnums you can get lots of throat erosion and you may wish to have that checked by a gunsmith who knows what he is doing.  If you have that but can overcome it with loading your bullets out a bit or have it properly dealth with then you can put that baby back in action.  HTH.  Mikey.