Some questions...

[beginningshooter4306]

So after a month of two of shooting I'm finally getting better results. I have been shooting a .22 for the time being but lately I've had some problems with it:

1. When I clean it, I sometimes notice these chips of metal which appear. My barrel seems to be undamaged and my cleaning rod is also undamaged. It is a silvery maliable metal-like substance which varied from size. All of which, however, aren't very big. (Nothing I can really compare to but it is definately less than the size of your fingernail.) Any idea where this is comming from, any problems it might induce, etc?

2. I have also had a huge accuracy issue the last 2-3 times I went to the range. My shots are normally grouped in a circle about 1" in diameter but when I shot, it went everywhere. I think this was because of overheating. (The weather outside obviously wasn't too cool either on both occasions.) I shoot anywhere from 125-200 rounds in an hour. I notice that the barrel does become hot, but it has become hot before and not affected my accuracy the same magnitude that is has lately. Can the inaccuracy be attributed to overheating? If so, how many shots (just a guess is okay) do you think I can shoot accurately before the heat takes its toll? Also, can anything be done in order to counter over-heating? Damp cloth, anything?

3. I'm trying to increase the range at which I am shooting to around 50-75 yards while still maintaining a tight group. I'm looking to buy a scope for anything over 35-40 yards. So.... Are all rail mounts universal? (Or are they fitted just for their company?) And are there any scopes for a range of about 50 yards that you would reccomened for a .22?


Here is a link to the gun I am currently shooting (hopefully it helps):
http://www.savagearms.com/markiifss.htm


Thank you very much for your response. (Other questions may arise.)

[victorcharlie]

1.  Could the metal chips be coming from the cleaning rod?   Are you using a cleaning rod with a bore guide and cleaning from the chamber, or are you cleaning from the muzzle?  If your cleaning from the muzzle, have you nicked the crown?   Most fellows don't clean the bore very often with the .22lr as cleaning has been known to affect accuracy........and a lot of fellows only clean when accuracy or reliability falls off..........

2.  Yes, this could, and probably is heat related...it's the hottest time of the year and that adds to the problem....it could also be other things like looks sights etc......or loose screws holding the action in the stock......Try shooting the gun until the accuracy suffers and then let it cool completely and see if the accuracy returns.  Tighten the front most screw tight and snug the rear screw if you have a wood stock that has both screws......

3.  Yes, all grooved recievers that I know of are the same.......The Nikon Prostaff fixed 4X would be my pick and sells for less than $100.  The Optic zone has them about as cheap as you'll find one, and is a site sponsor.......also, Jon is customer driven and easy to work with.

The fact that you don't mention the brand and model of the rifle makes it a little more difficult to help you........

I usually take a couple of .22 rifles with me to the range and shoot one while the other cools........or I fire a pistol etc........

[KN]

Sounds to me like you are leading up you barrel. The flakes are probably lead. If you are not cleaning the barrel out sufficently between outings then your accuracy will suffer.

[corelokt308win]

Somethings not right.  If your finding any metal that you feel inclined to compare to a fingernail in some way, then, to repeat, you got problems.  Try a bore snake and see if you get metal.  Always clean from the breech, not the muzzle.  When pulling the cleaning rod back, be carefull to not nick the crown.  Some go as far as to remove the brush, jag, etc, from the rod prior to pulling it back.  Check the bore real carefull, it's hard to picture metal coming from there, but check very carefull any way.  I had a Savage bolt 22 and had no problems.  Many 22's, and centerfires as well, don't shoot well hot.  If all else fails, call Savage and see if they won't check it for your peace of mind.
Hope this helps.
P.S. It's true, you can clean a 22 to death.  The soft, waxed bullets coat the bore and keep it from rusting.  I found Wolf MT ammo to be the best in mine.

[jvs]

I hate to admit this but I have a .22 that has only been cleaned twice in close to 30 years, and that was because it got soaked both times.  I normally just give the outside a slight coating of gun oil.

This is the rifle I use for Squirrels and Ground Hogs and accuracy has never been affected by the lack of bore maintenance.  I also usually use copper washed bullets by Remington or other brands that have a healthy coating of wax.  .22 Bird Shot and BB Caps will give you heavy lead deposits.

An old timer told me once that it is nearly impossible to wear the bore out on a .22.  I believe it.  As long as you make sure that rust never forms in the bore, you should never really have any problems if you basically leave the bore alone.  I have thousands of rounds thru mine and it is still the one that gets the Squirrels at 50 yds.  Sighting in over 50 yds is not something I would do unless you have a Bullet Drop Compensator on your scope.

If your bullets are getting chewed up while running down the bore, you have a problem that may be from out of your control and it might be time for a new rifle. 

Most Rail Mounts are all alike.  On mine, I have a 3X9X40 - 1 inch tube for Squirrels.  As I got older, I found out I needed more than those 1/2 inch tube scopes made for .22's.
 

[Brithunter]

Doh! I gather that we are discussing a .22 Rimfire rifle here?

If that is the case then your actions are complicating matters. .22R/F ammo has a lubricant on it which conditions the barrel and best accuracy will never be achieved until this conditioning is done. Even changing make of ammo will or can cause a loss of accuracy until the new lube on the new ammo has conditioned the barrel. I will also guess that you are using some high or hyper velocity ammo?

Why is it that it seems to be that whenever a new .22 Rimfire rifle is aquired the proud new owner wants to make it the fastest baddest thing in town  ? Why not accept it as it is and using Normal Velocity ammo which is normally far more accurate and actually hit what your aiming at instead of scaring it with a near miss at a higher velocity  .

 I also suppose that the novel idea of actually slowing down your shooting has not occured to you shocking as this may seem. The .22 Long Rifle cartridge has got to be one of the most accurate ones made and in a tiny very effective package as well. Whilst it may be nigh on impossible to wear out a bore on a .22 R/F it's very possible to errode the chamber mouth after numerous rounds and rapid fire will accelerate this. Your NRA did a little experimentabout this with some top target shooters and their rifles. They actually took the barrels off and cut them back slightly then re-chambered as restored and in some cases improved upon the original accuracy.

Try buying some good quality std velocity ammo or even sub sonic ammo. Winchester makes a wonderfully accurate Sub Sonic HP Cat # W22SUB. I use this for hunting Rabbits with a sound Moderator and it works fine out to 75 yards  . Just about all scope makers make scopes dedicated for the rimfires, they require a shorter parallax setting, that those for full bore rifles although you can get away with using a good quality scope of medium to low power say 4x and below  . Rimfire dovetails as pretty standardised today but buy good quality rings as they save trouble in the long run, same with scopes  ,.

     Now it looks like you need to clean you rifle PROPERLY  and carefully then with you chosen ammunition head for the range and shoot, but this time lets go for quality not quantitiy . You didn't mention the outside temprature when you were shooting or whether you are in direct sun? Even the .22 R/F is going to heat up in the sun on a hot day and that without firing a shot. Now this may sound silly but go to your local libary and ask for a Book called :-

The Sporting Rifle   Published by Wolfe ISBN:0-935632-13-1   which was written by Towsend Wheelan and last reprinted in 1984. The section that you need to read starts on page 287 and covers the whole learning process from postion the breathing and most importantly trigger control. Although an old book the basics have not altered one bit .

[jvs]

I might agree about hyper-velocity .22 ammo.  My experience with such ammo leads me to believe that they are better suited for auto-loading rifles and pistols, when gas is used to eject the spent shell and load the next shell.  In a hunting rifle I have found them to be very unreliable, as far as accuracy goes.

However, it is my opinion that high velocity ammo in a .22, either solid or hollow points, is more suitable of bringing on a quick death to a small animal.  Something that Standard Velocity and sub-sonic ammo is less able.  They may be ok for plinking, but for hunting....no.

In my opinion, sub-sonic ammo has absolutly no use in the outdoors, except to shoot at a wayward cat or skunk, and Standard velocity ammo isn't much better at more than 30 yds.  I don't think it should be necessary to compensate for bullet drop or worry about a less than mortal wound while hunting at 50 yds.  Maybe they do things differently elsewhere.

 

[Brithunter]

Maybe they do things differently elsewhere.

   We sure do  here is a little shot of the BSA Super Sport Five .22 R/F rifle which has had the barrel cut back to 16 1/2" and threaded 1/2" UNF to which is fitted a Sound Moderator (Silencer) ammunition used is that Winchester Sub Sonic :-





The rabbit is only half grown so ideal for a single person meal, tender with no waste 

   You might also like to know that Game Keepers get through a lot of this ammo in controling the vermin including Foxes.

In my opinion, sub-sonic ammo has absolutly no use in the outdoors, except to shoot at a wayward cat or skunk, and Standard velocity ammo isn't much better at more than 30 yds.

    Oh dear some one certainly needs education in safety let alone animal cruelty 

     If the Hi-velocity ammo is so superior then why is it not used where accuracy counts? in places like the Olympics? perhaps because it cannot compete  and as we are so often told it's bullet placement which counts. Sure the Hi-Vel stuff carries a bit more power but if you cannot put that bullet in the right place then the quarry will not die of a fright  . causes by the near miss.

I don't think it should be necessary to compensate for bullet drop or worry about a less than mortal wound while hunting at 50 yds

   May I humbly suggest that you stop using the .22 rimfire as it is obviously NOT suitable for you. something like the 220 Swift sounds more your cup of tea 

    Oh and 30 yards is Air Gun range  we use air rifles which are limited to 12 ft lbs Muzzle energy (anything more requires the same restrictions as normal firearms) by law yet on Rabbits they are very effective to 35 yards. On a Hare you need to drop the range due to their much larger size and I personally would not shoot Hare with an Air Rifle choosing the rim fire if I needed to take Hare.

[jvs]

1. Silencers are illegal.  Even though you can get the same results with an empty one liter bottle or a baby nipple.

2. Air Rifles are for Pansy's.

3. Animal Cruelty is something I dont concern myself with.  Dead is dead.  Whether it is a Baby Rabbit or a Deer.  I prefer to get it over with quicker and with more power.

4. And nothing any Brit can tell me about guns is anything I want to know, nor do I care to know that side of the story.  They don't usually have enough experience with those nasty old guns to prove a point.  Tell us whether you can buy high velocity and hyper velocity .22 shells in Merry Ole England, or how about high powered rifles and ammo, and if not, why.

Have a good day, old chap.  This conversation is over as far as I'm concerned.

[Brithunter]

Ha  HA we have a self appointed expert and joker in JVS.

    Before you go throwing you total ingonarance about I suggest you go and learn at least something about guns and air guns in particular. You might try and start by researching the Lewis/Clarke expedition who used a pre charged air gun for hunting. Then you might like to search about Napoloens' view of the Swiss Military sharpshooters with Oh gee wow pre charged airguns 

    There is no such thing as a silencer as the discharge of a fire arm cannot be silenced only Moderated  and they ain't illegal here in the Good Ole UK as you see from the Photo  heck I am even considering one for deer stalking, deciding which rifle to put it on is the problem though  I suppose if I didn't have so many to choose from it might be easier  Moderaters are actually suggested use under Health and safety issues and our Forestry Commision which is responsible for Deer control in the commercial woodlands issues them to it's rangers after a couple of incidents of hearing damage.

3. Animal Cruelty is something I dont concern myself with.  Dead is dead.  Whether it is a Baby Rabbit or a Deer.  I prefer to get it over with quicker and with more power.

    Oh boy a REAL HUNTER  the poster was refering to .22 rimfire were so low powered that were only good for shooting at wayward cats. Unless the cat is a feral cat and being a nusience you are shooting to injure some ones pet and in most states I think you will find is actually illegal. But you don't care about animal cruelty ............... hmm no wonder there is so much to show on Animal Planet with the Animal Cops 

4. And nothing any Brit can tell me about guns is anything I want to know, nor do I care to know that side of the story.  They don't usually have enough experience with those nasty old guns to prove a point.  Tell us whether you can buy high velocity and hyper velocity .22 shells in Merry Ole England, or how about high powered rifles and ammo, and if not, why.

Have a good day, old chap.  This conversation is over as far as I'm concerned.

   Note that as soon as they lose they run!

     How would I have found out about the inaccuracy of Hyper-Velocity ammo without trying them out? I chose Winchester Lazer and it was expensive compared with the std velocity stuff sounded impressive but was inaccurate to say the least. I suppose it could be used at 25 yards at a pinch but what's the point of that? My current stock of the Winchester Sub-Sonic is getting low as I am down to about 300 rds, the std velocity Swartclip I have around 800 left of so enough for now Hmmm I wonder what jvs considers High Powered rifles and ammo?

   Gee I suppose that none of these would count :-

Baikal MH18 .222 Rem
Parker-Hale 1200V 6mm Rem
Obendorf Mauser M96 6.5x55
Gustav 96 mauser 6.5x55
BSA Majestic Feather Weight Deluxe .270 win
BSA Monarch 1st pat .270 Win x2
BSA CF2 stutzen .270 Win
BSA CF2 7x57
Rigby Mannlicher mdl 1892 6.5x53R
Steyr Mannlicher schoenauer model 1903 6.5x54
Brno model 601 .308 Win
DWM Mauser M93 special sporting rifle 7x57 Mauser
P-H 1100 Deluxe 30-06
P-H 1200 Super 7.92mm (8x57mm)
BSA model D .303
BSA Model E .303
BSA Model No1 .303
Husqvarna model 46 9.3x57

     But I doubt any of those would be considered "high powered as they don't have the magic word Magnum so :-

Parker-Hale 1100M .458Win Mag 

    No jvs I don't have any high powered rifles nor ammo at my disposal the ones listed are all figments of my immagination  and I never shoot them nor hunt with them:-


With a nice Muntjac Doe


BSA CF2 with Whitetail Doe Northern Missouri


With 9 point Buck again in Northern Missouri


Pair of Muntjac deer


Muntjac Doe with a Bespoke (custom) rifle which was built in 1999.

    Hmm just when it was getting interesting too ........... Sigh

[jvs]

Brit,

To disagree and make a point is one thing.  To disrespect another person, like you do,  is a totally different thing. 
 
So let me warn you about your way of disagreeing and putting it in writing.  I have no wish to act without Zachery's permission, but I know someone who will.

Your attitude will not be tolerated.

[Brithunter]

To get respect you first need to proove you deserve it  your attitude to game and ignorance of maters related to shooting means that you have to earn it and you have a long way to go ......... a very long way 

Your whole attitude is macho as shown in :-

Air Rifles are for Pansy's.

    And I find it laughable quite honestly. Instead of actually learnign your throw hissy fits and threats again I am not impressed ............... not even a tiny little bit 

[Graybeard]

Around here EVERYONE follows MY RULES and respects ME or they are GONE.

So Brithhunter and also JVS, you've both violated the rules to some extent. Brithunter you more so. So calm it down one and all. No more personal attacks here. If you can't discuss the TOPIC and leave out personalities then don't make a post. It's that simple.

I care not whether you like or respect the other person posting in the threads with you but you WILL respect the RULES here or you WILL BE GONE. That's been the case since day one and several folks are now gone because they refuse to accept that.

Don't make me get further involved here.

[Brithunter]

Now I am totally confused  not sure how I am being held so in the wrong?

   Is it wrong to object to acts which give people liem PETA and others antis fuel and ammuntition to use against us?

    Is it wrong to point out some ones total ignorance and suggest area of research which would educate?

    But it's obviously OK to make threats and call other members names. Or is it just when an American memeber shows just how ignorant and plain stupid they are they need protection? if this is the case then I have no need for a site which supports such an attitude. I will await to see what sort of reply I get from Mr Greybeard before making any more posts on this site. The rules are not the problem but I will wait and see how they are applied and I wait with interest.

[R.W.Dale]

 I own 15 rifles chambered in 22lr and reguarding ammunition selection I concour with brithunter, Of all my rifles exactly NONE of them will even attempt to group with "hyper" velocity ammo CCI products being the worst. It's beyond me why people buy the junk. I do however get good accuracy with more conventonal High velocity fodder but never as good as STD velocity ammo.

 Reguarding cleaning your rifle, the metal fragments are probably lead deposited from the bullets traveling down the bore. As far as cleaning goes unless you're using a steel cleaning rod it should be impossible to damage the rifling with a cleaning rod made of softer metal, IE brass or aluminum.

 I suggest trying some diffrent ammunition and possibly buying a bottle of water before shooting rather than a 20oz MtDew.

[jvs]

I never had anything but problems with Hyper-Velocity .22 Ammo.  And I also agree that CCI is the worst.  I am not sure that CCI .22 hyper ammo is made for hunting.   But for any hunting I have always used High Velocity Ammo.  I tried Standard Velocity a few times, but I wasnt satisfied with the results. 

I never tried sub-sonic outdoors.  I'd rather shoot .22 BB-Caps than sub-sonics.