Cartridges We Really Want

[358Win]

Hi All:

   I was just browsing the thread on "Cartridges We Should Junk" or git rid of?!?

   I think a thread on what Cartridges Do We Really Want/Need would be much more interesting and maybe a little less contentious.

   At the low end are the rimfires.  Seems like we have an awesome pair in the .17HMR and the .22 Long Rifle.  Any one got other rimfires they are in love with?

   Then there are the 22 Centerfires.  Here it seems like we need about 3 basic velocity ranges depending on what you are trying to do.  I'm a big fan of the 22 Hornet Improved at the low end.  In the middle it seems like the 222 Magnum should have been the big boy, but the army adopting the 223 made that goof ball cartridge the king.  At the high end either the 225 Winchester (my favorite) or the 220 Swift have all the zip anyone could ever need.  What about you guys, what do you think are tops in 22 Centerfires.

   Then there are the 6mm's.  At one point back in the early 60's I thought they were going to take over the shooting world.  But it seems like now were pretty much left with the 243 Winchester.  You know it is funny about 90% of all the rifle cartridges are pretty much based on two basic cases the 30-06 and the 375H&H.  The 243 is the 308 necked down which is the 30-06 shortened.  The 6mm Remington is the 7x57 necked down which is the 30-06 necked down and shortened.  The 240 Weatherby is a 30-06 swaged to put on a belt and then necked down to take 243 bullets.  The 6mm Rem only holds a couple of grains more powder than the 243 so it is pretty much the same thing.  So it is no great suprise that it is limping along.  But back to finding 3 usefully different 6mm's.  At the bottom I'm partial to the 6x47mm which is the 222 Magnum necked up to take .243 bullets.  In that same category would be the 6mm PPC which is basically a 7.62x39mm Russian assault riflle cartridge necked down.  In the middle group there is the 243 Win or the 6mm Rem take your pick what one will do the other will also.  At the high end there is the 240 Weatherby which is a unique belted case with the 30-06/8x57 head diameter.  Also at the high end is the 243 WSSM which is from the 404 Jeffery family of cartridges.

   No sooner do I say that there are mostly two basic cases, when I mention several that are not.  The 222, 223, 222 Mag, 6x47mm are another case family.  The 225 Win and the 220 Swift have the basic '06 rim diameter but are semi-rimmed cartridges.  The 22 PPC, 6mm PPC, and 7.62x39 Russian are another case family.  The 240 Weatherby has the '06 rim diameter and belt diameter with a slightly narrower body.  Then there is the whole 404 Jeffery family which includes the WSSM, WSM, and SUAM cartridges.  Another rebated case is the 284 Win which retains the '06 rim size.  And a similar family of .500 body cases based on the 7x64 Brenneke including the 376 Steyr.

   On the the 25's.  One of the grandest cartridges ever made was the 250 Savage.  This is a shortened and necked down '06 case.  If I were designing a military cartridge it would be a slightly shortened 250 Savage with the 308's body taper and shoulder angle which we already know works well in machine guns.  For military purposes an 87 grain bullet at about 2700 fps would be a lot more effective.

   While I'm just getting warmed up on this topic, I've got to take off now.  So I'll resume at the 25 calibers later.

Have a Great Day

[The Sodbuster]

I'm very intrigued by the Superior Ballistics Inc. case design.  One of the designers was a guest columnist in the March/April '06 issue of Rifle Shooter.  The other designer is a retired rocket scientist, so the designs are based in part on his knowledge of ballistics and fuel combustion.  You can learn more about their products and designs at www.superiorballistics.com.  They have a 5mm cartridge called the 5mm-35 SMc that Savage's custom shop will chamber rifles for.  Designs exist for larger caliber cartridges and are based on a fixed, optimum ratio of bullet diameter to powder column and features an elliptical shoulder (if I remember correctly).  The goal is to create a cartridge design that maximizes efficient use of the powder.  Their .30-100SMc equals the velocity of the .30-.378 Weatherby Magnum but has 33% less case capacity.  Above the 6.5mm caliber, there aren't rifle actions suitably large to accomodate the fat cases of their design.

So as far as cartridges I really want:  Bring on the SMc's!

[358Win]

   Thanks for the info Sodbuster.  I did see that article and it was very interesting.  Their concept of having a constant powder column diameter to bore diameter ratio of 2.1 to 1 appears to be very efficient.  I do wonder about how practical this would be in the larger bore diameters though.  My two favorite bore diameters are .358 and .375.  With the .375 for example the powder column would be 0.788 and when you add case wall thickness the outside diameter of the case body would be about 0.838!!  Even the Jeffery family of cartridges WSM, SUAM, etc. only go to 0.555 outside case body diameter.  But you could have a long neck and a cartridge length of about 1.850 like the 222 Magnum and still have a LOT of powder capacity.  I would think that it would be a single stack magazine.

   Back on the 25's.  The 257 Roberts especially the improved version is the 2nd step up in power.  P.O. Ackley himself said that this was the best of his improved series as it offered the largest gain in velocity of them all.  Then the next step up is the amazing 25-06.  This cartridge is awesome on everything from Coyotes to Mule Deer.  At the top we have the 257 Weatherby.  This is the one that is most often used in the ultra-high velocity arguements and with proper bullets has taken almost every game animal on earth.  I'm sure I probably miissed your favorite 25 so write in and tell me about them and why they are so great!

   The 6.5mm is one of the best bores out there and it seems you either love them or hate them.  The number of 6.5mm military cartridges out there make such a long list that I don't even want to write them all down.  The one that really stands out for me at the lower end of the spectrum is the 6.5x55 Swede.  This one is another of those odd cases that are hard to make from anything else having a .480 rim versus the .473 rim of the '06, 'x57, and '08 family of cartridges.  In this same league is the 260 Remington.  This awesome cartridge is a member of the '08 family and is one of the brightest of the siblings: 243, 260, 7mm-08, 308, 338 Federal and the grand 358 Winchester.  These two light 6.5's are the absolute best in terms of powder versus recoil.  If I were to recommend a rifle for a teen or a woman for game up to and including Moose these would be it.  The 160 grain bullets in these have amazing penetration and will work on the larger animals if you hold the range down and can place the bullet with precision.  This level of recoil lends itself to lots of range practice.  My personal theory of killing power is:
1) Location
2) Placement = Location
3) Hit the right spot = Location
4) High Sectional Density
5) Impact Energy
   So it is just like Real Estate Location, Location, Location is the most important factor.  Next up the power list in 6.5's is the 6.5 Rem. Mag. or the 6.5-06.  These cartridges have almost identical capacity and therefore performance.  A good way to describe them is to say they are like a 25-06 with attitude.  The selection of bullet weights is better and the slightly larger bore or "gas area" gives them higher velocity with equal bullet weights in equal length barrels.  Next up the power ladder is the 264 Winchester.  The adherents of this cartridge give it atom-bomb attributes, while its detractors point out that it needs really long barrels to get the most out of it.  In 22 inch barrels the truth is that it is a loud 270 Winchester.  In 26 inch barrels or longer it is like lightning.  This would be great in a Single Shot Falling Block like the Ruger #1 so you could put a 28 or 30 inch barrel on it and still have the same rifle length as a 26 inch barreled bolt action.  My favorite 6.5's are the 260 Rem. and the 6.5 Rem. Mag.  What are yours?

   The 270 bore has a ton of advocates including the late Jack O'Connor.  There really aren't any small capacity cases in this bore.  The 270 Winchester is one of the 3 or 4 most popular calibers in America today.  It is proof positive that progress since 1925 hasn't come very far.  It has the velocity, bullet weight, bore diameter and accuracy to take almost all North American game to as far away as any of us should realistically shoot.  While a lot of people can shoot sub-inch groups at a 100 yards from the bench with the right rifle, very very few can even shoot 3 inch groups at 100 yards from a field rest position.  I therefore stand on the position that the only time shots over 300 yards should ever be attempted is when you are trying to take down an already wounded animal.  I can hear the howls and shrieks from here, but that doesn't change my position on this at all.  The 270 Weatherby Mag. and the 270 WSM offer another couple 100 fps which adds to the energy delivered, a good thing assuming that extremely durable bullets are used.  At close range these velocities cause all kinds of problems unless the bullets are tough enough.  In these high energy numbers a bullet that would produce outstanding kills at 200 yards have also produced outstanding failures at 20.  I once saw a friend shoot a Bull Elk with a 270 Weatherby at about 40 feet.  By the time the Bull finally went down for keeps my friend had reloaded and put 5 slugs total into this Bull.  The farthest shot was at about 60 yards.  The first shot partially crippled the Bull so that he ran around us in wider and wider circles.  All but the last couple of shots basically disintegrated on impact leaving a shallow splash wound.  Once he finally got a little farther away from us the last bullet finally penetrated into the lungs and finished the job.  The very next year after switching to a much tougher bullet he shot his Bull Elk at about 40 yards and it went down like it had been struck by lightning.  I personally have a Ruger #1 in 270 Winchester and have had great sucess with it.  The barrel is cut down to 21 inches which cost me about 100 fps coming from the original 26 inch barrel.  It is a very handy rifle, but for some reason that I don't totally understand it kicks much harder than expected.  Also the 21 inch tube is amazingly loud, I'd recommend you use at least a 23 inch barrel in the 270 Winchester.

   Well, this is turning into a Ph.D. thesis.  But I'm having fun with it and hope that some of you will chime in with your opinons and notes about your favorite calibers.  I'll be back to take up the 7mm next.

[Slamfire]

And I always thought the 7x57 lead to the abandonment of the .30-40 and the development of the .30-06, now I learn it's just the .30-06 shortened, and necked. 

[358Win]

Hi Slamfire:

   You are correct historically!  The 0.473 case head diameter was existence in both the 7x57mm and, if I remember correctly, the 8x57mm cases before the 30-06 was developed.  So a more accurate way of saying it would be that the 30-06 was a lengthened and necked up version of the 7x57.  At the time I was thinking about how I could create 7x57 brass from 30-06 brass, and not from a historical perspective.

   The 2 largest, in terms of numbers, case families are the rimless 0.473 case head, and the belted 0.532 case head.  In just the rimless 0.473 case head we have the following partial list: 22-250, 243 Win, 6mm Rem, 250 Savage, 257 Roberts, 25-06, 260 Rem, 270 Win, 7mm-08, 7x57mm, 280 Rem, 308 Win, 30-06, 8x57mm, 338 Federal, 358 Win, and 35 Whelen.  This basic head size case is manufactured in 3 basic lengths: 308 length, 57mm length and 30-06 length.  Not to mention all the wildcats like the 6.5-06, 25-08 that can be made by necking each length up and/or down.  If you are really into case forming all of these can be made from basic 30-06 brass.

   The 0.532 belted case also has lots of siblings: 257 Weatherby, 6.5 Rem Mag, 264 Win Mag, 270 Weatherby, 7mm Rem Mag, 7mm Weatherby, 7mm STW, 300 Win Mag, 300 Weatherby, 300 H&H, 8mm Rem Mag, 338 Win Mag, 340 Weatherby, 350 Rem Mag, 358 Norma, 375 H&H, 416 Rem Mag, 458 Win Mag, 458 Lott.  This family also has 3 basic lengths a 57mm the 2 short Rem Mags 6.5mm and 350, the '06 length 2.5 inches like the 7mm Rem Mag and the 338 Win Mag, and the long full magnum length of about 2.850 inches such as the 300 Weatherby and the 375 H&H.  Again with some case forming you could make any of these from a basic long case such as the 375 H&H.

   Stay tuned, and I'll be back tomorrow to continue the long list of cartridges that are both useful and a lot of fun.  I'll be starting out at 7mm then.

Have a Good Night, Chat at y'all later.

[358Win]

Hi All:

   I guess I thought a bunch of you would chime in with respective virtues of your favorites.  But maybe that will happen once I get to the end of the list and pick my favorites.

   The 7mm bore is one of the few metric bores that have really made it big in the U.S. and of course it has a world wide following also.  The 7mm Rem BR is a very interesting case.  This is a super short variant of the 0.473 rimless head family with the interesting addition of a small rifle primer pocket.  Not only has this round has some small sucess in bench rest circles, it makes a wonderful cartridge for the bolt-action pistols.  While I have no personal experience with it that is mostly due to not being born rich.  I think this one would be a lot of fun and gets amazing velocity given it's small appetite for powder.  Next up would be the 7mm-08 which is just the 308 necked down.  A great round and a superb fit in carbine length barrels.  For those who really need penetration on larger game the 175 grain at 2,400+ is just the tiicket.  Next up would be the 284 Winchester.  This has a body diameter of .500 and to keep things simple for manufacturing uses a rebated rim of 0.473.  Note that the manufactures really try hard to only have a couple of basic bolt face diameters.  Even the new rebated 404 Jeffery descendents such as the WSSM, WSM and SAUM have a rim diameter of 0.535 which is close enought to the standard Belted case with it's 0.532 rim size.  The 0.500 body is a great idea only a bit less than the 0.512 body of the standard Belted cases.  The 7x64mm and 376 Steyr also use a 0.500 body, but unlike the 284 also use a 0.501 rim size.  I sure wish this case would catch on better here in the States.  Depending on length the 0.501 rim with the 0.500 head could be necked up and down from 243 up to even 416 and have an adequate shoulder.  The 284 Winchester already has wildcats from 6mm up to 0.375 with the 6.5mm and the 0.375 versions being the best of the lot.  Next up in 7mm would be the 280 Rem. this is basically the 7mm-06 and has the same capacity and performance as the 284 Win.  With the greater range of bullets available in 7mm the only thing that keeps the 270 Win out in front is the 30 year head start.  Now we get to one of the most popular cartridges in the U.S. or the world for that matter the 7mm Rem Mag.  This one is excellent and the fact that hunters like it is shown by it's sales stats.  Moving up to the long Belted case we have the 7mm STW which is basically the 8mm Rem Mag necked down.  This one should provide all the velocity, recoil, blast and power one could ever want in a 7mm bore.  If I've missed your favorite 7mm let me know.  Since this is a Bolt Action Forum I've deliberately skipped over the Rimmed cases that are better off in a lever or single shot like the 7mm Waters, 30-30, 444 Marling and 45-70.  But if anyone wants to add those to the mix I can do that pretty easy.

   The 30 caliber bore is as American as Home made Apple pie and Vanilla Ice Cream.  Just about every shooter I know has a 30 of some kind.  Starting at the short end of the standard Rimless case we have the 308 Winchester which is one of my favorites and still in wide use by most NATO forces.  I guess I'm getting ahead of myself here as the 7.62x39mm Russion round is probably the worlds most manufactured round.  But I'll bet most of those are AK or SKS variants.  Also in a similar class with the 308 is the 300 Savage which at one time was so popular that if you said you had a 300 everyone assumed it was the Savage you were talking about, not the Winchester, Weatherby or H&H.  For a while after the first two world wars the 30x57mm was showing minor popularity as you just had to screw a 30 caliber barrel on a 8x57mm Mauser and have the chamber cut for the 8x57mm case necked down to 30 caliber.  Next up is the King of Kings the grand 30-06.  This is based on the 2.5 inch 0.473 Rimless case and has proven itself all over the world.  With 220 grain soliids even Elephants have been persuaded that it doesn't really take a 470 Nitro Express to put them down.  For the average Joe who is going to have only one rifle and doesn't reload this is the numero uno cartridge of choice.  If the 30-06 doesn't give you all the power you want, then there are a slew of cartridges on the basic Belted 0.532 rim case including the 300 Winchester, the 300 Weatherby, and the old 300 H&H.  If that still doesn't ring your chimes there is always the 30-378 Weatherby.  Although I can't think of a good reason for the existence of a 30 caliber that burns well over 100 grains of powder.  Maybe some of you can explain it to me.  I for one like ultra-efficient cartridges like the 260 Rem and the 358 Win.

   Next time I'll be getting into the calibers that I really don't have much use for, the 8mm and 338.  And if I have time all at once I'll get into my all time favorite bores the 358, 9.3mm, and 375.

[Coyote Hunter]

Let’s face it – there are a lot of excellent cartridges out there.  I won’t even begin to try to decide which ones should be kept.  But here’s a few of my favorites:

.223
.22-250
.243 Win
.257 Roberts
.25-06
.260 Rem
6.5mm-06
.270 Win
7mm STE
7mm-08
7mm Rem Mag
.30-30
.307 Win (Added because I WANT one)
.308 Win
.30-06
.300 Win
.300 Dakota
.338-06
.338 Win
.330 Dakota
.35 Whelen
.375Win (Added because I HAVE one)
.376 Steyr
.375 Dakota
.45-70

OK, I’ve left off all the WBY’s, WSM’s, WSSM’s, SAUM’s and RUMS – that’s sure to upset a few folks.  Also left out the x57’s and other favorites – well, its MY list.

[358Win]

Hi Coyote Hunter:
 
   That is a great list.  I was just noticing that I some how missed the .22 Magnum from my list of Rimfires.  I'm sure that one is bound to be a favorite with a lot of folks.  You definitely hit quite a few of my favorites including the 260 Rem, 6.5-06, 338-06, 35 Whelen, 376 Steyr and 45-70.  The 7mm STE isn't that just about the same thing as the 7mm-30 Waters?  A 30-30 case necked down to 7mm.  Is that right?  Been a while since I've seen a  write up on that one.

[poncaguy]

22LR (of course)
17HMR
22-250
260
270
270WSM
7MM-08
308
35 Whelen
45-70
460 S&W

[358Win]

Hi Poncaguy:

   Tell me about 17HMR.  I've never actually shot one.  It is quite a bit faster than the 22 Mag rimfire isn't it?  Do you just punch paper with it or do you have some good varminting tales to go with it.  Also how does the 460 S&W compare to the 454 Casull?

Hi All:

   Back to the long list, the next up is the 8mm.  The oldest and as far as I know weakest of the lot is the 8x57mm.  My Grand-Father on my Mother's side had one that he got subsequent to WW1, I think.  He put a sporter stock on it and it had a peep sight arrangement.  I only got to shoot it a couple of times after he retired from working for Union Pacific he sold it in the late 1960's.  Most of the efforts in this bore have not done too well.  The 8mm Rem Mag is a full length belted case and should have made the High Velocity fans estatic.  I wonder if the bullets available could have hurt it.  This one definitely calls for premium bullets.  The most recent effort in 8mm is the 325 WSM.  This one may have a chance, it is based on the 404 Jeffery basic case and is short enough to work through a short 2.8 inch action.  It would probably be even better in a 3.0 inch action.  Also it will burn less powder than the 8mm Rem Mag so it should kick a bit less and the muzzle blast shouldn't be a bad either.  We also have a much better selection of premium bullets now than back when the 8mm Rem Mag was introduced.  This may be the only bore in which the wildcat 8mm-06 comes close to the number of factory rifles, other than those left in the orginal 8x57mm.

   The next bore is a well loved and popular the 338.  There is the brand new 338 Federal which is the 308 case necked up to 338.  I just may have to have one of these myself.  The original round in this bore is the 338 Winchester which has a large following.  I had one of these for a brief period in the late 1970's.  The bullets available back then worked wonders so long as you didn't have to shoot too close.  The good news is that the bullets have gotten a lot better since then.  I got layed off and went back to school in the early 80's and my Winchester M70 in 338 Win Mag was a casualty of economics.  Then there is the 338-06 a fine round.  Thanks to greater bore it will throw equal weight bullets faster than the '06 providing more energy and frontal area and great bullets.  At this point I'll up my hate mail by saying if I had to choose between the 338-06 and the 30-06 I'd pick the 338-06.  If that isn't enough power there is always the 338 Win. Mag and the 340 Weatherby.  The Winchester is a 2.5 inch standard belted case where the 340 is the full length 2.850 belted case with the Weatherby radius shoulder.

   The next bore is the 358 and my personal favorite by a long way.  In the 308 case there is the 358 Winchester which is the most under-rated cartridge in America today.  Another awesomer performer is the 35 Whelen.  Next up is the 350 Rem Mag, followed up by the 358 Norma, and the 358 STA.  The 350 Rem Mag is a short action standard belted case which has almost identical capacity with the 35 Whelen.  The 358 Norma is a 2.5 inch standard belted case and the 358 STA is the full length 2.850 standard belted case.  This one is a stellar performer for those who can handle it's hefty recoil without develping a flinch.

   Then there is the 375 bore.  The smallest 375 round is the straight walled 375 Winchester.  Why this one didn't become a best seller with the lever action crowd escapes me.  Next up is the 375/284 Win this is capacity wise a 375 Whelen.  Like the Jeffery series the 284 case has a rebated rim of the 0.473 standard bolt face.  This one give you pretty fair ballistics in a short action with a standard bolt face and the amazing bullets made for the 375 H&H.  Then we have the 375/300 Win Mag another wildcat.  The 300 Win Mag case was choosen as the parent for the couple of extra grains of powder it contains over the 338 Win Mag case.  Then there is the standard 375 H&H which may very well be the number #1 do it all rifle in the world.  Going up from there is the 375 Weatherby which is an improved 375 H&H.  Finally there is the bemoth 378 Weatherby which is the 416 Rigby case with a belt added on and burns approx. 100 grains of powder for those willing to stand behind one.  Mentioning the 378 reminds me that I missed the 30-378 and the 338-378 Weatherby.  For those who can carry a bench rest in the field you could take some amazingly long shots with those.

   Next time I'll try to wrap up the 400 to 475 class of cartridges.  Above that I'll not talk about things which I have no familiarity with.  At that point I'll get to the controversial part where I pick my favorites and explain why.

[358Win]

Hi All:

   Now for the 40+ bores.  One of the real advantages of a 358 bore cartridges is the ability to make paper punching and small game loads by using .357 bullets designed for the 38 Special/357 Magnum revolver bullets.  Enter the 405 Winchester or the 411 Taylor or the defunct 411 KDF.  All of these are bored to a groove diameter of 0.410 to 0.412.  This allows the use of revolver bullets designed for the 41 Magnum revolver.  For most of the informal target shooting the revolver bullets provide a very inexpensive way to get a lot of practice

   The 416's have under gone an amazing resurgence of interest in the last 18 (??) years since the introduction of the 416 Rem Mag.  This is a full length standard belted case with the 0.532 rim/belt diameter and the 2.850 length.  Thanks to modern powders this achieves the equivalent ballistics of the grand old 416 Rigby which is a 400 grain bullet at 2,400 fps.  Many years of research and emperical data gathering have shown that maximum penetration is achieved with launch velocities between 2,200 and 2,400 fps.  In addition to the 416 Rigby and the 416 Rem Mag that the 416 Taylor will launch 400 grain bullets in the velocity range.  The awesome sectional density of 0.330 coupled with the correct velocity range and the huge wound channel diameter from these big bullets are devastating on the largest game: Cape Buffalo, Leapoard, Lion, Big Brwon bears are all taken very cleanly with these cartridges.  The other 416, the 416 Weatherby is the orginal Rigby case with an added belt.  It is the hot rocket of the crowd, and will drive the 350 grain Swift at almost 2,900 fps.  The down side is recoil that can

   Then we hit the 458 bore and my stopping poiint.  Here we have the 450 Marlin, the 45-79, the 458 Win Mag and the 458 Lott.  If one were going to bag elephants on a regular basis the Lott would be the first choice.  Next piece is when I finally start narrowing the field and should get some interesting

[Coyote Hunter]

358Win –

The 7mm STE was developed by Layne Simpson and consists of a .307 Win case necked down to 7mm.  More case capacity and hence velocity than a 7-30 Waters.  Much as I would like to have one in theory, the poor bullet selection (for tube mags) is a real disincentive to building one.

What got me into leverguns was the desire for a .307 Win.  Couldn’t find one and bought a used .375Win instead. The .375 whetted my appetite and soon enough I found I had Marlins in .375Win, .45-70 and .30-30.  Still want that .307…

[azmike]

Personally, if I HAD to stick with one bore diameter, it would be 7mm, and I would be hard pressed to choose.  Probably would end up with a .280 rem as a compromise, but the 7mm-08 is what I have my sights on now, to retire the 7mm rem mag I have been shooting.

Aside from that, the really useful ones are IMO:

22 Hornet
6mm Remington/.243
6.5x55
7x57
30-06/.308
30-30
338-06
35 Whelen
45-70

As far as rimfires go, my favorite is practically obsolete, the .22WRF, in a winny model 1890 pump.  Best grouse rifle ever.

[azmike]

Oh, yes.  I forgot the .270 winchester. 

[victorcharlie]

I guess I don't understand the point of this post.........revenue from the sales of rifles and or pistols are what determine what a company offers as far as cartridge line up is concerned.  It doesn't matter how good, or how bad a cartridge is, but is more on the terms of whether a customer will pay for a rifle in that caliber.

Of course, if the military adopts it then it usually will become popular regardless.......do you think a soldier would pick a 9mm over a .45?

I don't have access to sales figures but I'd bet the .308, 30.06 and .223 are at the top of the list.......

That said, I, myself have been a lot more interested in the old favorites such as the .35 remington, 45.70, and yes, the .270 winchester.  Maybe it's a touch of nostalgia on my part that lead me to the old favorites, but most of the new stuff is really not necessary as it trys to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

After I'm dead and gone, when my grandkids open the gun safe, what's the odds that they will look at each other and say "I wonder why grandpa would want a .257 Roberts?"

There seem to be a lot of us who tried the latest whiz bangers as younger men.....who were trying to satisfy that quest for the last bit of velocity....or had to have the flattest shooting rifle at ranges that we would never shoot them at........We spent the money, took the beating, and found out that they didn't kill any better than the 30.30 we had as kids......

One of the neighbors built a really hot mid-ninties Camero..........the road out front of the house is full of black marks......you can hear him coming a mile away with his headers uncapped.........the neighbor kids think it's the coolest thing they've seen in a long time......

Yep.....reminds me of me 30 years ago........

Now, all I really want is for it to be paid for and not cost me alot in tires and gas........

I think I've gone full circle........and realize why my father just shook his head and walked off.......

As far as cartridges we can't live without.......that seems to change over time, because what I can't live without now sure ain't what I couldn't live with out when I was twenty!

Oh young man rejoice in thy youth!  I sure did!

[358Win]

Glad to see some folks chiming in with their lists of favorites, my own is

22 LR,
225 Winchester
6x47mm
257 Roberts Improved
260 Remington (#4)
6.5mm Rem Mag.
7mm-08
280 Remington Improved
338 Federal
338-06
358 Winchester  (#1 by along way)
35 Whelen
350 Rem Mag.
358/325 WSM wildcat
375/284 Win wildcat
376 Steyr (#2)
375/325 WSM wildcat
375 Weatherby (375 H&H Improved)
411 Taylor wildcat (458 Win necked down to take 0.411 bullets) (#3)
450 Marlin
45-70

   The purpose of this thread is to get people talking about their favorites.  Hopefully in a much less contentious way than some of the similar threads have turned out.  The idea being this is my favorite and I like it because ... but mostly because it's my favorite.  And have everyone chime in without all the heated bashing I've seen in other threads of this type.

Have a Great Day, 358Win

[Cheesehead]

  Hey 358

  Good job on the ambitious and interesting thread.

  Here is my list, in no particular order.

  8mm Mauser

  222 Remington Magnum

  308 Winchester

  6.5x55

  7mm Remington Magnum

  223

  45/70

  358/08

  Cheese

[358Win]

Great list Cheesehead.  Of course the 358/08 and the 358 Winchester being exactly the same thing always adds lots of points in my list.  It is good to see that there is someone out there that really likes the 8mm Mauser.  A great cartridge.  It is basically the standard 0.473 rimless in the 57mm length.  Where I really have trouble ranking mine is in the 375 bore.  I used to have a 338 Win Mag, which I sold during a period of economic hard times.  But when I replaced it a few years later I went with the 375 H&H which I liked a lot better.  Then I read some stories about how some of the pro hunters in Africa were actually downloading it a bit because they got better penetration.  The velocities were 2400 for the 300 grain and 2550 for the 270 grain.  This is exactly what the 376 Steyr produces.  The 376 Steyer is based on the 7x64 Brenneke case which is very similar to the 284 Winchester except it has a .501 rim instead of the rebated 0.473 rim of the 284 Win.  It is also longer.  But I'd sure like to get it in a short action, so the 375/284 is one way but suffers from reduced capacity about the same as the '06 case.  The other way to get it in a short action would be to use the 375/325 WSM wildcat.  Since I could get one of those pretty easy by purchasing a BLR in 325 WSM and then just rebarrel and rechamber for the 375/325 WSM it seems a lot cheaper than a Steyr rifle.  And I love my 358 Win BLR so that my very well be my next project.

[Cheesehead]

  The 8mm Mauser is near and dear to my heart. It is the first big game rifle I ever used at the age of 14 courtesy of my Father as a WW2 souvenir through an encounter my Father had with a Nazi soldier in Germany in 1944. A very effective deer cartridge. I bagged a deer the first hour of my first hunt. It has fascinated me ever since. It is the cartridge many others are based on. I still have an 8mm mauser today. I have taken many deer with this gun. With heavy bullets and maximum powder charge it can take the largest game in North America.
  The 375 H&H has been around almost as long with so much history. A heavy hitter that shoots relatively flat. I have an Encore system and have seen 375 barrels at gun shows for 200 bucks. Don't need one. Just want one. Almost bought one. The 300 grain Sierra spbt with a near max charge would be interesting.

Cheese
 

[358Win]

It seems like most of the x57mm cartridges neck the 8mm down.  I think that the wildcats based on necking it up would be more interesting.  The only larger x57 I'm aware of is the 9.3x57mm.  Which has seen some use on the Dark Continent.  Although its longer brothers 9.3x62, 9.3x64 and 9.3x74R have gotten a bunch more press.  One of the reasons I'm so fond of the 358 bore is that it has the added versatility of being able to use 9mm and 357 bullets for paper punching and small game in addition to the full size rifle bullets for game.  The range of pistol bullets goes from about 80 grains on the bottom to 200 grains on the top, and the range of rifle bullets goes from the 150 grain Rem Core-Locks on the bottom to the 310 grain Woodleigh on the top.  The 358 Winchester is just the 308 necked up with no other changes.  You could get a bit more from necking up the 8x57mm case which would be a sweet ticket in a 3.0 inch action.  The 35 Whelen is already there but you pretty much have to go with a 3.4 inch action for that.

[358Win]

Why did I choose the 225 Winchester?  When it comes to 22 Centerfires you have the 0.378 rimless family such as the 222, the 223, and the 222 Mag.  Then you have the small rimmed cases the 22 Hornet, the 218 Bee etc.  While I have a deep fondness for the 22 K-Hornet which is an improved version those cases are still a bit in the tricky side to work with because of the extremely small powder capacity.  The 223 is fun, but a military mistake.  The 222 Mag I love, but it is even better as the 6x47mm because of the 75 and 80 grain bullets which make it more viable for Coyotes and the like.  The 225 Winchester and 220 Swift are both 0.473 semi-rimmed cartridges.  The Swift is just a touch too hot for some one like me who wants to shoot 50 or 100 rounds in a day.  The 225 Winchester and the 22-250 are of almost identical capacity.  But the 225 case is also useful for things like the 6.5mm JDJ an amazing hunting pistol.  The brass is also very strong and tends to last longer than the 22-250 brass.  But I guess I mostly like it because it isn't run of the mill.  How many guys can you name that even have a 225 Winchester?  Love to hear differing opinions, but pleas no hate mail 

[Norseman112]

Here is my list in no particular order as well.


.17 Hmr
.22 Lr
.223
.243
25-06
30-06
8 mm
303 brit
300 win mag
7.62 x 39

John

[358Win]

Hi Norseman112:

   So have you shot the 17 HMR much?  How do you like it?  Do you do any actual varminting with it?  If so what is the largest varmint you would tackle with it?  The 303 Brit is much under-rated here, but I have a couple of friends down under that love it.

   Amazing how well the military cartridges hold up in most peoples lists, you've got .223, 30-06, 8mm, 303 Brit, and 7.62x39mm.  The 7.62x39mm is also the parent case for the 22 PPC and the 6mm PPC, so the accuracy potential is there if you can get it in a quality made gun.

[358Win]

Has anyone tried the fairly new Ruger .204?  I know very little about it.  Just realized today that I hav forgotten about that cartridge.  Any one got one, or have shot one?

[358Win]

Just read the article in the July issue of Rifle magazine about the 204 Ruger.  Being based on the 222 Magnum case necked down this is an awesome cartridge.  Velocities are over 4 grand with the 32 to 35 grain bullets.  Swift speeds with about 1/2 the powder charge.  Should also be less fussy than the .17's.  The 40 grain bullets should be awesome at long range and/or in windy conditions.  Makes me wonder what I need a 17 and a 22 for when the 20 will do both jobs.  Also since I'm a big fan of the 6x47mm which is the 222 Magnum necked up to 6mm thats two rounds on my list made from the same brass.

Multiple rounds on the same basic case also fuel things like the 225 Winchester - 6.5mm JDJ pair, the 260 Rem - 358 Win pair, the 280 Rem - 35 Whelen pair, the 6.5mm/284 - 375/284 pair, etc.

[Cheesehead]

I see the 303 has been mentioned a few times. I have never owned or shot one, but still find it interesting. The 303 has fought two world wars and has taken all game animals, all this at relatively moderate velocities by today's standards. The particular historical fact that stands out is the battle of Britain. This air to air battle that raged almost daily in 1940 proved the bravery if the British air force and civilian population. It also proved the effectiveness of the 303 since it was the primary machine gun of the British planes. The 303 swept the sky's clean of the Nazi planes after a long painful siege.


Cheese

[Norseman112]

Hello 358WIN

Sorry my responce time was slow on getting back here, I have been up and down with lymes( from a wood tick) the last 3 weeks. It was caught early and I have been getting much better. I just bought my savage  HMR 17 in March. I  really love shooting this cailber. Its very accurate and lots of fun to shoot. I have a farm in wisconsin and there has been a pesty wood chuck hanging arond the barn. My twin boys (15 yrs old) would see him and try and make a sneak on him with there .22 Lr but no luck. Well when I was sick, I happen to look out my window and down by the barn there he was. 80- 90 yards out I grabed the 17 and rested it against an elm tree and  put the big chuck down no problem. There was quite an exit wound as well (I was very surprised). It was the first critter I shot with it. I use my .223 when I hunt yotes here and in Nebraska. I think if one was within 100 yards of a yote the .17 hmr would work, but the .223 will be my go to gun on yotes.

John     

[Barstooler]

Just a minor correction.  The 220 Swift is not based on the 30-06.  It may have a similar rim diameter but started life as necked down & neck-shortened 6mm Lee Navy, with the semi-rim slightly larger and a stronger case head.

You can make 6mm Lee Navy's by necking up the Swift and seating the bullets long, or another method used by Buffalo Arms (which sells 6mm Lee Navy brass is turn down the the case head slightly and cut the groove more deeply.

As to my favorites, they are:

22-250
243
256 Newton
6.5-06
270 Win
30-06
338-06
35 Whelen
(Yes, I admit I like the 06 case!)
45-70

Barstooler

Beverage of Choice: Jeremiah Week
Weapon of Choice: 30mm Gatlin Gun

[7x57mm]

I'm a simple meat and potatoes fella.
My favs are: 1. 7x57mm Mauser in a modern rifle
                 2. .223 Remington in my CZ 527.
                 3. 6.5x55 in my Model 94 Swede
                 4. .45/70 and I don't even own one.

Tom Purdom

[358Win]

Hi Barstooler:

   You are correct about the 220 Swift.  The only thing it shares in common with the 30-06 is the 0.473 inch bolt face diameter.  The same story can be said for one of my favorites the 225 Winchester it also has the 0.473 inch bolt face or rim diameter as the 220 Swift, the 243, the 6mm Rem, 257 Roberts, etc.

   The Swift is one of the most accurate cartridges in existence.  But my opinion is that it was better as the 6mm Lee-Navy.  The original is a performance twin with the 6mm Rem and the 243 Win.  It is interesting to note that the 6mm Rem. and the 257 Roberts are both necked down versions ot the 7x57mm.  While the 243 Win and the 260 Rem and are just necked down versions of the 308 Win case.

   There are some interesting theories about burn rate harmonic vibrations associated with certain case body diameters.  In that vein it is interesting to note that the 22 PPC and the 6mm PPC both have a rim diameter of 0.445 with the body in front of the extractor groove is 0.441-0.443.  These are two of the most accurate cartridges in benchrest contests.  The Swift has the 0.473 rim diameter of it's semi-rimmed design, and the body diameter of the Swift case just ahead of the primer web is 0.445 inches.  This similarity may be at least a partial explanation of the Swifts amazing accuracy.

   This has lead me to ponder a couple of times if a superbly accurate and efficient cartridge could be built on a slightly trimmer action around a rimless case with a 0.445 rim with a body diameter of 0.442 just ahead of the extractor groove.  Then use the machine gun tested concepts of 0.010 of body taper per inch of case body length and a 20 degree shoulder of the 308 which was obviously designed for semi and fully automatic rifles.  Then use the concept of having the neck length match the bore diameter as closel as possible.  The 308 for example has a neck length of 0.305 versus a bore diameter of 0.308.  Then set the overall length of the cartridge so that seating to the base of the neck places 1/3 of the bullet length in the case and 2/3 of the bullet length out of the case.  Then coming up with an action length of roughly 3.0 to 3.1 inches so that the overall case volume would be just a bit larger than the current 308 case.  A volume which has proven to be extremely efficient.  More so than the 30-06 case volume anyway.  The idea being to get a speed of about 2,400 fps for bullets of around 0.300 in sectional density and getting up to around 2,550 fps with bullets of around 0.250 in sectional density.  These long bullets would have very high BC's in the range from 0.375 for the lighter slug to 0.450 for the heavier slug.

   This entire concept would make for extremely efficient rifles that would do very well with barrels in the 19 to 23 inch range.  The whole concept being a rifle that has maximum energy per grain of powder burned.  Especially in the 23 inch barrel you would have a very accurate rifle with minimal recoil and report while providing extreme accuracy and optimal downrange ballistics.  I think with this case design and parameters you could have a pair of rifles to hunt the world outside the largest and most dangerous game.  The smaller version would be a 6.5mm with bullet weights of 125 grains and a 150 grain.  The larger version would be a 375 wihich has exactly twice the bore area of the 264.  The bullet wieghts that meet the criteria would be 250 grains and 300 grains.

   Then the shooter would have a battery to take all of the worlds game.  If he/she had a lot of varminting in mind a 204 Ruger would fill out that end ot the bill.  And if he was really going to get the chance to hunt Cape Buffalo and/or Elephant you could always round out the lot on the big end with the 458 Lott.

   Just for fun in my next post I'll design these cartridges and make sure that we would have enough powder capacity to really acheive the desired ballistics.