steadiness with rifles

[corbanzo]

I was wondering if any of you fellas had some tips to reduce sway and wobble when shooting.  I always have practiced good form, foot position, and hand position on my rifles, but have never been able to truly steady myself when standing.  I have never had this problem with hand guns, only rifles.  Is there any excersizes which can help to be more steady?  Or some changes I might try?

[Qaz]

Corbanzo- This may sound odd to you, but I think your problem is that you are weak. From a standing position, your deltoids play a major role in the sability of the rifle.  You can do resistance exercises to increase your strenghth with free weights or you can just pick a spot on a wall, stand there aiming at it and do this as long as you can. I worked myself up to a half hour.
 Here is the other fact that you must accept, you may never be as steady as you would like to be, but you can probably improve. Be glad you can shoot a pistol well, few people can do it well.

Good luck, Qaz

[The Sodbuster]

Corbanzo stated:

have never been able to truly steady myself when standing. I have never had this problem with hand guns, only rifles.

I'm just curious, are you shooting w/ iron sights on your handguns or a very low power scope?  Iron sights at 50 yards may look pretty steady.  Pick up your rifle and look through a 9X scope at 100 yards and you may be just as steady, but the wobble will be more evident.  

I haven't had any formal target training, so others please correct me if I'm wrong: but I thought competitive shooters try to control the rifle movement and squeeze the trigger when the reticle crosses the bullseye (and I ain't talking about a lot of movement).

[grousehunter]

I do'nt know, but back when I was in boot camp, they told us to breath with an up/down rythem, and to shoot on the down stroke! I do'nt know about you folks, but Iwas just as good relaxed as long as I was relaxed! it may have been the same, but not sure!  They also tried to convert me to an RH shooter and with a left master eye, they did'nt suceed!

[myronman3]

the best thing to do is take a rest.  no shame at all in doing that.  the only reason i know of not to take a rest is a shooting contest with your buddies.    
  when shooting offhand,  the less time you spend aiming,  the better off you are.  also,  use your sling wrapped around your arm to help stabilize your shot.

[nasem]

Corbanzo- This may sound odd to you, but I think your problem is that you are weak.
Good luck, Qaz

thats got absoloutly nothing to do with it.  His rifles weights probebly 10-11 lbs max and a 10 year old kid can hold that rifle just fine.  I think its ALL mental and I believe that he is shooting a heavy recoil magnum (maybe Im wrong) but my guess is its recoiling sooo hard that its making you "flinch" but sideways just before you prepare yourself to pull the trigger...... Remember its all mental.

[beemanbeme]

You are NEVER gonna be able to hold a rifle perfectly steady.  No matter how strong you are.  What you need is practice, practice, practice.  As posted, learn to work to the movement of the rifle.  Increasing trigger pull as the sights align, holding as they move away.  Some folks practice making a deliberate movement into the target as they pull the trigger. Whatever works for you.
One point to be made is, you don't have to be shooting ammo to practice control.  You can do it in you home.  Put a target on the wall and practice alignment and trigger squeeze.  Its called dry firing. You can buy a special cartridge to protect your firing pin but I've dry fired Remingtons hundred and hundreds of time with no problem.

[Don Fischer]

I'm with Myronman3 on this one. Unless the game is right on top of me, I never shoot offhand. Its the most unsteady position you can use. Two feet make a lousy shooting platform!

[nasem]

I'm with Myronman3 on this one. Unless the game is right on top of me, I never shoot offhand. Its the most unsteady position you can use. Two feet make a lousy shooting platform!

that is so true, its so hard to shoot off hand.  I mean there are people in the world that can shoot off hand and are freaking amazing at it, they can easily group 1" or less standing @100 yards, but those guys are not average joes.  those are folks that have been shooting for well over 30-40 years and they know how to do it.

During hunting, I almost always never pull the trigger offhand, becuase Im 90% sure that bullet woun't hit where I aim (unless im shooting @ 20 yards).  I always hindge my gun against a tree and sometimes I get on my knees, much more stable position

[james]

I tried to shoot a mulie last yr. at about 250 yds.  The grass was about knee high and the bullet never got there when I shot thru the grass from a sitting position.   The deer didn't run so I stood up to get a clear shot.   The cross hairs were weaving all over the animal and when they crossed his shoulder I squeezed the trigger.   I got lucky and he did a nose dive.  I wouldn't have taken the shot  with some of my rifles, but I have been shooting that gun for 30 years and it has a very fast lock time. (Rem. 788 in .308)

[Cement Man]

I think there are different mental circumstances when target shooting vs. hunting.  Looking back, many of my hunting shots are off hand, although I believe in using some kind of a rest whenever possible.  I consider myself a better than average shot off a bench and a better than average shot in the field when hunting. When I shoot at targets off hand standing though, I wonder how I never seem to miss game, in fact how I hit anything. I don't think so highly of myself  from a standing position at the range. I think the difference is that at the range I try too hard, I think too much, and I try to be too perfect before squeezing off.   On the bench, I take my time, I control my breathing, I abort the shot if everything is not perfect, and settle down again.  When I am hunting, it seems like every fiber in me becomes focused on that animal's vital spot, and as soon as everything lines up, I fire. No thoughts of recoil, no awareness of it, no noise, all I am looking at is that animal.  Good shooting habits, like trigger squeeze, cheek weld, all help to make it work right.  If you are on foot, shooting sticks ro a staff can be a big help too, especially if winded.  But just standing at a range - my confidence gets a real dose of humility.

[Maine Woods]

Hi Corbanzo I have an African trip comeing up in Aug. so I have been doing allot of offhand shooting. I wouldn't shoot offhand if I didn't have to but feel we ALL SHOULD practice offhand. after a few hundred rounds ( 22 LR on week days ) 30-06 on weekends. I am much more steady ( not like off a bench ) but enough to confidant off clean offhand kill at 100 yards deer size game. ( still not my choosen shot ! ) I am a carpenter and go to the gym and am in not bad shape ,but  I feel I have built up the muscles that help one steady a rifle offhand by shooting as many days a week as I can.  My :money:

[corbanzo]

Nothing wrong with resting, but even when starting out I have this problem, and moreso than most other people I shoot with.  As for the weakness, I am 240lbs, and almost solid.  I have bigger shoulders than most people I know, including other weight lifters - I can military press over 200lbs.  It seems to me that when I am moving it is because of the concentration of the close scope or sights on the rifle as compared to the other object further away, even though I do have very good eyesight.   I don't have this problem with pistols, even heavy ones like a 10" barreled .500 mag.  The problem seems to be in the relationship of where I am focusing as compared to what I am shooting at, and I lose some of the concentration on my rifle because I concentrate on the diference in viewpoints.  

Cement Man - total agreement, I am steadier when I have an animal in sights, but still not to where I want to be.

[Questor]

Practice is a factor here. When I started shooting my .22 rifle regularly I found that I shot better with a pistol than with a scoped rifle. It took some practice, but now I can keep them in the black of a 100 yard smallbore target at 100 yards when shooting offhand standing.

[Qaz]

corbanzo, it sounds like you already know what your problem is, and you are getting alot of expert advice, but I stand by my reply. Muscle has memory and you need to train it for the position you want to shoot in. It must be automatic when the gun is shouldered, with out any thought.

 If anyone thinks a 10 pound rifle is not heavy, shoulder it only using the arm that is extended, aim at a clock face and see if you can hold it rock steady for 10 seconds. A very few will be able to do this, but most will not be able to do this for 4 seconds.

[Questor]

Qaz is right about conditioning. Shooting my 6 pound .22 standing offhand with a hasty sling is pretty tiring for 40 shots (and I lift weights regularly.)

[Dave in WV]

If you are using a scope and it's a variable, try using a lower magnification. You may shoot better because you see less wobble. I convinced my son to try it and he agreed with me. He posts as "High Brass".

[NONYA]

bi_pod :eek:

[ScoutMan]

There is a variant out there for a field rest utilizing the "Hawkins Fist".

To use the Hawkins fist, you grasp the sling at the forward swing swivel forming a fist. In the off hand position, you would place the fist between the tree and the rifle, leaning into the rifle for steadiness.

Using a horizontal rest the fist is placed on the rest and acts much like a bipod.

It can be used in most field positions when the shooting sling cannot be used.

[Redhawk1]

Shooting sticks work well for me, also work great for walking around.  

[beemanbeme]

Bi-pods, shooting sticks, rests of opportunity all work great BUT murphy's law tells you that it will happen that you will be in a situation where none of those are available.  So, its as I posted, practice, practice, practice.  All of your field positions on a regular basis.  If offhand is your weakest position, practice it the most.

[SuperstitionCoues]

I was wondering if any of you fellas had some tips to reduce sway and wobble when shooting.  I always have practiced good form, foot position, and hand position on my rifles, but have never been able to truly steady myself when standing.  I have never had this problem with hand guns, only rifles.  Is there any excersizes which can help to be more steady?  Or some changes I might try?

Corbanzo,

I have found the core strengthening exercises that I have used for rehab after back surgery and subsequent abdominal surgeries have really helped to stabilize my shooting positions.  The best thing that you could do is get into a core-strengthening class at a gym, and also start an aerobic work out.  My favorite is swimming or aqua-aerobics to reduce the amount of stress on your joints.  The multiple muscle movements and resistance of the water will allow you faster, further progress than land-based aerobics.  That's the long-term solution that has more benefits than tightening up your groups. :-)

Short-term? Brace your gun on a tree trunk or branch when you shoot in the field.  That works also.

[corbanzo]

OK, so about the fitness stuff, I am very built, in very good shape.  I have a mountain race coming up next month, and have been climbing from sealevel to 3000 or 4000 feet a couple times a week.

I did notice something last week though.  I work at the Alaska Sealife Center, and was bent down looking into a microscope, I noticed that in this position I had the same uneasyness with my body.  A seemed wavering, which brings me to wonder about anything I may be able to do to bring my concentration more together and not just to what I'm looking at but also to my body.  My arms when shooting stay fairly stable, it's an overall imbalance.  I do a lot of hiking across extremely rocky terrain, and have good balance, but only in this up close situation do I have the swaying.

[Slamfire]

Some nervous system move the rifle around more than others, the real trick is to have the rifle move in a predictable fashion. Start with the sights high and bring the rifle down on the target, squeezing the shot off when the sights are on target. Of course, you can't do this with a suprise break, you have to be able to know when the rifle will fire. On moving game start behind and swing past just like in shotgunning, once again, you must learn the press type trigger control as opposed to the squeeze/suprise break. I still prefer a rest when possible and a tight ching sling for kneeling of sitting. You can get into that position in less than one second.

[ScoutMan]

I hate to disagree with "Slamfire", but the "open suprise break" works equaley well on moving targets. If the shot does not " break" while the sights are aligned, then you just "hold" your trigger press until the sights are aligned again. Otherwise, you pass on the shot (Bummer).

Slamfire is correct about the rest of it though. With the "ching" sling, you can get into kneeling or squat in about one second. This gives support to both elbows. That's the trick, trying to get a "field position" that gives rest support to both elbows.

That's the trick for a field position, is to get both elbows suported. In some circumstances it does'nt involve the use of the sling.

[Slamfire]

Ah the eternal debate between the sustained leaders and the fast swingers.  

[SuperstitionCoues]

OK, so about the fitness stuff, I am very built, in very good shape.  I have a mountain race coming up next month, and have been climbing from sealevel to 3000 or 4000 feet a couple times a week.

I did notice something last week though.  I work at the Alaska Sealife Center, and was bent down looking into a microscope, I noticed that in this position I had the same uneasyness with my body.  A seemed wavering, which brings me to wonder about anything I may be able to do to bring my concentration more together and not just to what I'm looking at but also to my body.  My arms when shooting stay fairly stable, it's an overall imbalance.  I do a lot of hiking across extremely rocky terrain, and have good balance, but only in this up close situation do I have the swaying.

Wasn't saying you are out of shape, not at all.  What I have found out the hard way though, is that you can be aerobically in shape (I like to swim everyday; I'm up to 550 meters this summer with more to go), but have a very weak "core" of abs, gluts, and back muscles which will impact your balance.  Ever worked with a therapy ball, or done a quantity of leg lifts and butt burners?  You would be surprised how far you need to go with these, as compared to how far you are (literally) going when you run.

I'm a grad student, doing a nutritional and metabolic study of mule deer via plant cell identification in feces.  Also, blood and liver tissue analysis of the same deer for my doctorate.  My point is that I use a microscope and other lab equipment also, and probably assuming the same postures as you when working as well as when shooting.  I noticed the wobble too, especially after back surgery.  

The core strengthening that I've had to do as a result of back surgery has helped with my balance, stamina and as a "fringe benefit", my group sizes have shrunk.  I'm not talking about getting a "six pack" either.  What I'm talking about is strengthening the muscular "girdle" that helps to keep us erect.  It works because I can keep my torso more stable without an external support.  That is what you are looking for, especially when you are croutched over a microscope.  

Even though you it sounds like you are in great shape, you would be surprised how weak these muscles can be - I have seen runners crippled up because they bent over to pick up a gum wrapper and their back went out because the muscles are weaker than they should be.  Something else to consider- the biggest muscle in the body, and most under-utilized but most important for posture, support and stamina are the gluteal muscles that we sit on.  :-)

[leverfan]

I did notice something last week though.  I work at the Alaska Sealife Center, and was bent down looking into a microscope, I noticed that in this position I had the same uneasyness with my body.

What's your caffeine intake like?  Is there any chance you're working out so much that you're causing some muscle tremors?  Any family/personal history of muscle/neurological problems?  Are you getting enough sleep?  Any inner ear problems, or swimmer's ear?  Is your blood sugar dropping lower than it should at times?  Is there any chance that you're just kind of shaky, and maybe you'd better always look for a rest on shots over 70-100 yards?  

You don't need to answer any of these questions here, they're none of our business, but I thought I'd throw them out there for you to think about.

Another possibility is turning down your magnification in your scope, and going with thicker cross hairs, too.  Your movement will be less noticeable, so you'll be less likely to start over-compensating for it, and more likely to settle down quickly and make a good shot.

[corbanzo]

Usually I take shots from the sitting position is possible, and especially if longer more important shots.  And no, no disorders, and pretty much no caffeine at all.  

The abs might need a little work, but the back and the glutes are the strong points.  

Maybe I can just get Bananas at large - 30 point buck gun -

"Combination AK-57 Uzi triple barreled double scoped heat seeking shotgun"  :-D  :-D

[Don Dick]

If the scope is moving try to have a circular motion and pull the trigger when the cross hair is on target.  More people do this then admit it.