Author Topic: Brainstorming for multi-purpose 30-06  (Read 1664 times)

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Offline BattleRifleG3

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Brainstorming for multi-purpose 30-06
« on: June 01, 2006, 10:03:14 AM »
I know this looks like and probably is one of "those" threads.  But I figure with my needs being well thought out it could bring about some good thoughts.

Here's the scoupe - I have many rifles of many sorts, and am quite familiar with lots of rifles that aren't my own or aren't even my cup of tea.  308, 223, 7.62x39mm semis based on military designs.  Mauser and Mosin and Enfield (Oh my!)  American sporting arms in 22LR, 12ga, and 300 RUM.

And after much time and a growing experience with shooting, I come back to wanting a basic bolt action 30-06 for multi-purpose use.  By that I mean something I could use in the widest variety of situations.  From hunting to target shooting to being ready for homeland defense, I'm convinced that a good 30-06 bolt gun with in the hands of a practiced owner has a place as much as any high capacity semi-automatic or heavy barreled precision rifle, and I don't just mean to take a deer each season and return to the shelf.  I'm talking about something I could depend on in adverse conditions, take anywhere and find ammo for, carry as well as anything, and shoot with confidence in a pinch.

So here's some of my thoughtts, or tentative criteria -
1.) Smooth, durable, forgiving action - sorry Savage, accuracy's all you have going.
2.) MOA accuracy.  1 is plenty.  Larger, well, I know one can do better, so I'm going to hold to MOA.  Don't need a company guarantee, just a model where it's a reasonable expectation.
3.) Strong extraction, but not controlled round feed, at least not Mauser type.  My Mauser feeds a little too roughly for my preferences, and I think it's had a controlled round feed related jam or two.  A Weatherby Vanguard seems ideal in that regard, with a mild claw extractor and a button ejector, only that I can't understand why they're not 180 degrees from each other like on the Rem 700.  On that note the Rem 700's C-clip extractor isn't my cup of tea, but I'll take it any day over the ball detent driven linear extractors like on the Mossberg ATR, Savage, and Win M70 (non-classic).  (So nix those three.)
4.) MUST, absolutely MUST be able to load from the top.  I would be happy to have a detachable magazine to boot, but anything that has to be loaded outside of the rifle is a no-go.  The only top loading detachable mag bolt gun I know of is the Rem 700 DM.  Sorry Rem 710, Savage, Tikka, and FN.
5.) Rifling suitable for the widest range of bullets, but centering on those most likely to be used, ie 150-180gr.
6.) Medium weight 22-24" barrel and an average weight.  Nothing insanely lightweight or heavyweight.  Normal weight is normal for a reason - it's a good weight.
7.) I would like to have open sites available.  Installing them after the fact is a possibility.  I would be particularly interested in a "scout" type scope setup, but that's not 100% necessary (even if preferred.)  That would mean rear receiver site and forward mounted scope.
8.) Durable finish and real synthetic stock, or perhaps a wood one with a basic and durable wood finish - no black painted wood stocks - sorry Howa.  It's a tough call, but I don't think a stainless rifle would be a good choice.  Getting the right stock in the first place may prove more economical than paying for and then replacing a cheap stock.  But I'm open to suggestions there.  Heck, I make stocks for AKs, maybe I should for this one too.
9.) Receiver safety, or at least a forward-backward safety.  The type on most Mausers, Rugers, and Winchesters is not my friend.  Two position is good for me.
10.) Base gun in the $400 range, give or take.  Optics and other mods will be another budget, but a new stock is pushing it.

You could call this somewhat of a "settling down" gun.  The idea is a non-glamorous, affordable, versatile, and capable rifle - capable, as I said, of shooting accurately in a pinch and taking not exactly abuse but real world use.  The two guns at the top of my head are Rem 700 SPS, whose stock I absolutely hate, and the Weatherby Vanguard, whose stock I haven't evaluated as recently.  Savage, Tikka, Winchester (non-classic), Mossberg, Browning, Weatherby MkV, amidst all of their strengths, are simply out of this equation.  Ones I'm tentatively curious about are the Rugers, CZs, Steyr Pro-Hunters, Zastava Mausers (formerly sold by Charles Daly, now sold by Remington), Century Mausers (I don't know from where) and any that I don't know of already.

So what does experience and technical expertise say to any of these points or any that I'm ignoring?
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Offline killdeer

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Brainstorming for multi-purpose 30-06
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2006, 01:40:07 PM »
Save your nickels and bed a stainless 700 in a McMillan.

  A rebarrel job will tailor throat/twist dimensions to said boolits.


  Welcome back........

Offline BattleRifleG3

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« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2006, 06:07:46 PM »
I actually want something really standard - I've concluded, after much years of concieving variations, that there's a reason that some things are standard.  Special things do have an important place, but there's also an important place for stuff that's totally standard, and that's what I'm going for here.

And I'm sort of looking for the optimal package.  You can spend a little and be poorly served, spend a little more and get a big improvement, or spend a lot more relative to the step up you take in capabilities.  Looking for the happy medium.  Like what I was saying on the stock, would rather pay a little more to get a good one from the factory than to pay less and have to spend a lot more upgrading it.  I sure would love a McMillan stock, but that would be for another rifle, a more specialized one, most likely a heavy barreled target rifle, not a multipurpose one.

Thanks for the welcome!  I was never really gone, my posts just were farther apart due to getting busy with some important steps in life and following through on commitments.
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Offline Demonical

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« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2006, 02:37:47 AM »
If I wanted a .30-06 that had to meet that criteria I would just buy a BAR.

Offline BattleRifleG3

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« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2006, 03:00:35 AM »
Might get one at some point, but I'm really looking for a bolt action for this use, due to weight, size, handling, and such.  I've found that bolt actions are basically "my thing", that is I shoot with the most comfort and confidence with one.  I aim faster and reloading is a reflex.  Another detail is that in PA, one cannot hunt with a semi-auto rifle, and I want this to be the same rifle I shoot paper and other inanimate objects with, hunt the eastern half of the continent with, and from those experiences am confident enough to defend my country with as part of the unorganized constitutional militia (per state and federal constitutions).

An M1 Garand would be an excellent choice for all but PA hunting except that its gas system is not friendly to commercial hunting loads.  A FN-49 in 30-06 would be nice, but it's a little on the exotic side and I have no experience with them, only with the mechanically similar SKS (from which the FN-49 was designed, believe it or not.)

My current leaning is toward the Weatherby Vanguard, but I still have to do a bit of examination in person and none of this is in a hurry.  For once I want to take the time to do something right.
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Offline james

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« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2006, 03:21:15 AM »
Its hard to beat a Rem 700.  I picked up two used BDLs in 30-06, with scopes for less than $350 each.  They were made in the early 80s.  The one that was not glass bedded shot the best so I kept it and sold the other.  I adjusted the trigger, put a better scope on it and developed a sub moa load with 165 Sierra GKs.  It shoots good and looks good but when the chips are down I take my 30 year old Rem 788 in .308.  You will develop confidence in a weapon only over time.  The one that never lets you down is the one you will carry when a second shot may not be possible. When I go out of state, I may take a Rem. BDL, Tikka 695, or TC Encore, but I always take the 788 as a back up.  Then because the weather is bad, a difficult hike is required, or I'm just "scouting", I take most of the game with the 788.  I hope you find that "special" rifle.
james

Offline ScoutMan

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« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2006, 11:55:03 AM »
Battle,

Take a look at the 308. Up to 180 gr. it is the equivalent of the 30-06. The  30-06 doesn't come into its own until you move up to 220 grs.
You only need the 220 gr. if you are going to hunt the "big bears".

The advanage or the 308 is compactness. I am a disciple of the "scout concept". Go to "fr. frog" page to get all the background info.



SM
If you can get closer, get closer
If you can get steadier, get steadier.

A telescope helps you see; it does not help you hold and squeeze.-Jeff Cooper

Offline BattleRifleG3

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« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2006, 02:55:15 PM »
I like the 308, I use the 308, but in this case it's a 30-06 that I want.  And yes, use of 220gr bullets is a consideration.  I like having many different rifles for many different things, this is a rifle that's supposed to be good for as many things as possible.  Not everything perfectly, but a good choice for almost anything.

Bolt action in 30-06 is the most firm part of this criteria.  Don't get me wrong, I'll get my 308s too, heck I have two already.

Just got a chance to look over a Ruger today, decided it's not my cup of tea.  The most intriguing thing about the Ruger option at this point is adding wooden panels where applicable into a synthetic stock.  But I think that'll have to be on another rifle.  I don't really like the Ruger safety, and the controlled round feed system seemed a little bit too "controlling", basically the same issue I have with my Mauser.  I'm going to try to take a look at CZ 550, Zastava Mauser, and Winchester M70 classic before going back to the two contendors earlier, the Rem 700 and Weatherby Vanguard.
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Offline ScoutMan

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« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2006, 01:15:50 AM »
Battle,

If open access to the action is a high priority, then you only have two options: 1) Scout or forward mounted telescope or 2) ghost ring/post iron sights.

Giving up the scope will save you about 1 lb in weight. For a field rifle a ghost ring will do it for you out to 300 yds. Most of us can't hold that well from a field position out to that distance. (XO Express Sights make an excellent ghost ring/post combination)

For me I like a rifle to weigh about 7 lbs all up. They really get "heavy" after 8 lbs.


SM














































SM
If you can get closer, get closer
If you can get steadier, get steadier.

A telescope helps you see; it does not help you hold and squeeze.-Jeff Cooper

Offline BattleRifleG3

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« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2006, 03:17:27 AM »
I like that weight too, or say 7 and change.

A scope is a priority, but use of open sites is pretty important as well.  Top loading is non-negotiable, complete top access would be good but is a little more flexible.  What's most important is that it be able to be on target very quickly but also able to zoom in with some precision.  I realize there are tradeoffs there but that's what I'm trying to optimize.  A rear receiver site and scout mount sound good, although I'm also thinking that a scope above the receiver and factory iron sites may be just as good, since the shorter site radius is fine for faster aiming.  Most rear receiver sites I see for bolt guns are designed for high precision, not fast targetting.

If I start with a stock bolt action with no sites, that's ok.

In the meantime, I'm going to test my comfort with a scout mount on a Mosin Nagant, a quick install and quick removal if I don't want to keep it there.
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Offline ScoutMan

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« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2006, 09:45:21 AM »
Quote
I'm also thinking that a scope above the receiver and factory iron sites may be just as good,


Not a good idea. You'll have to change your cheek spot weld. Not a good thing.

 
Quote
Most rear receiver sites I see for bolt guns are designed for high precision, not fast targetting
.

Not true. Look at the XS sights Williams. My XO has an aperture opening of .190

Quote
In the meantime, I'm going to test my comfort with a scout mount on a Mosin Nagant,


Here is a thread that will keep you updated on the scout scope concept.
http://www.frfrogspad.com/#Scout[/quote]
If you can get closer, get closer
If you can get steadier, get steadier.

A telescope helps you see; it does not help you hold and squeeze.-Jeff Cooper

Offline tscott

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« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2006, 01:48:56 PM »
I think you were very much on the right track with your original post.
The best 30-06 I have shot is my Mark V... I can put a dime on 3 shots
220's at 100yds..... (it just loves 220's)!!!

Offline Zachary

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« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2006, 01:50:56 PM »
I can't think of a rifle that meets ALL of your criteria.  Unfortunately, you are probably going to have to prioritize, especially considering your $400 range.

My favorite rifles in the $500 range are Tikkas.  All I can say is look one over, hold it in your hands, and work the bolt.  You WILL fall in love.

Other than that, you will have to save your money to customize a rifle to get it exactly how you want it.  A customzied Remington 700 would be ideal.

Zachary

Offline longwinters

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« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2006, 03:39:16 PM »
Yep the 400.00 price tag, to me, is a problem.  You are definitely going to go used. . . maybe very used.  I would rather save a year and get a Sako than anything else.  But you could go with a Rem or Ruger.  And probably figure some work will need to be done on them . . . although maybe not.  But if I were going to get one rifle to basically do everything I would have one put together.  I would spend a lot of time getting my thinking educated and save for a year or two or three and get a real dandy assembled.  From my point of view the figuring out, asking questions etc... is almost as much fun as owning the end product.

Long
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Offline myarmor

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« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2006, 07:06:47 PM »
BRG3-You definately like details my friend and as always take your time to think out a decision before you make it.
The Vanguard's and Howas are nice rifles. If you go out an get a chance to shoot one you will be impressed with how smooth and solid the rifle feels. At least I know I was. The Howa's will be a little more forgiving on you bank account than the Vanguards too. All of them I have shot I have been well pleased with and if I where in the market would be a heavy consideration thats for sure, especially on a budget. Good thing as well is the stocks replacements you can get for it.
With that said, I agree that a good 700 would serve you very well too. Fitting as I think this one is...
http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire_rifles/model_700/model_700_CDL_SF_limited.asp
Though it would be out of price range..
You can still find the Mountain rifle with open sights at Walmarts and other suppliers as well....sounds like a good choice for what your looking for if open sights are a definate need?
Good hunting for your rifle my friend.
-Aaron

Offline BattleRifleG3

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« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2006, 04:30:22 AM »
$500 would really be ok - guess I miscommunicated, when I said 400 range I meant starting with a 4 is all ok.  A Sako is a bit high and I'm not sure its features are totally for me, but in the long run I suppose it's a consideration.

I got a chance to look over a Win M70 classic yesterday in a different chambering.  It seems to have the extractor dealt with right, leaving more than a thin space to catch the rim of the cartridge.  I'm actually seriously considering that one (in 300 RUM) for a different need.

On stocks, I'm extremely frustrated - they seem to change far too often for me to know what I'm getting.  The Vanguard stocks seem to have gotten far worse in the last few years, and the Rem 700 SPS seems to be offered either with the SPS style stock or the old ADL one (or maybe I'm confused.)  Now I'm afraid I'd get the wrong one if I have it special ordered.
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Offline azshooter

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« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2006, 04:43:05 AM »
For $400 and all your restrictions all you can hope for is a used gun.  The orther option is to take a reality check and go buy a Savage that you can not worry about taking a beating - is durable, accurate and get on with it.  Smoothing one out is not all thqat hard.

Offline jvs

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« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2006, 01:01:06 PM »
Start from scratch with a Springfield A3-03 and go from there, just watch the serial number.  They can be configured any way you like them, unless you really want a newly manufactured one.

I recently came into a good deal on a Springfield Sporter .30-06 with a Military Match Barrel and a Bishop Stock, a configuration that was popular in the 1960's, and to tell you the truth, nothing made today can come close to this one.   I already have dibs on another Springfield A3-03 that was configured with a Military Match barrel and a Mannleicher Stock.

Granted, they are old bolt action military pieces and were the customized dreams of a previous generation, but they are nice.
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Offline BattleRifleG3

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« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2006, 02:02:41 PM »
For $380 I can get a Weatherby Vanguard synthetic and for $430 I can get a Rem 700 SPS DM, both NIB, So I don't see how my price range is insane.  What stock options they'll have (which seems to be luck of the draw) is another matter.  I'm not looking to shell out that much and then more for an additional stock.  Making one may be a moderately happy medium.
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Offline jpuke

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« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2006, 01:38:34 AM »
I "scout-ified" a Tikka T3 (Stainless) in 30-06 about six months ago - couldn't be happier.  I'll agree with you though, I wish I could load it from the top.  I had my gunsmith cut the barrel to 19", turn down the barrel and install an XS scout scope mount and inlet the stock for said mount.  Cost me $250 to have him do that.  I added the third sling swivel myself for my Ching Sling, got an XS weaver low-mount ghost ring in the back and mounted an XS post sight in a Marbles ramp just ahead of the scope rail - so it's not on the end of the barrel catching on things.  (The gunsmith thought I was crazy in all respects and made sure I'd done my homework and really wanted a scout mount/setup)  With a Burris 2.75x mounted in Leupold QRW Low rings the whole package comes up an ounce over 7 lbs.  This weight is unloaded with everything, including sling, attached.  Rifle still shoots 1" groups, trigger is wonderful and like I said initially - I couldn't be happier.  I only wish Tikka didn't charge 70 bucks for an extended magazine.

Offline ScoutMan

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« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2006, 08:58:09 AM »
[
Quote
the whole package comes up an ounce over 7 lbs.
 

jpuke,

You come in at scout weight, what about scout length (39"). Did you reduce your LOP to 12.5"?

SM
If you can get closer, get closer
If you can get steadier, get steadier.

A telescope helps you see; it does not help you hold and squeeze.-Jeff Cooper

Offline BattleRifleG3

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« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2006, 09:34:31 AM »
My interest is in the general scout config, not a strict adherance to all of the criteria.  Mine would still have a 22" or so barrel, no bipod, and not worry about weight so much, except that it not be loaded down with accessories.
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Offline jvs

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« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2006, 11:18:46 AM »
Quote from: BattleRifleG3
My interest is in the general scout config, not a strict adherance to all of the criteria.  Mine would still have a 22" or so barrel, no bipod, and not worry about weight so much, except that it not be loaded down with accessories.


I get the feeling that you may be better off buying a A3-03 and making it exactly the way you want it instead of buying something new and doing just as much work to a new one.
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Offline safetysheriff

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« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2006, 01:43:02 PM »
Quote from: BattleRifleG3

I got a chance to look over a Win M70 classic yesterday in a different chambering.  It seems to have the extractor dealt with right, leaving more than a thin space to catch the rim of the cartridge.  I'm actually seriously considering that one (in 300 RUM) for a different need.

I WOULDN'T BUY A 300 RUM ON A BET!   IT'S NOT NECESSARY....

On stocks, I'm extremely frustrated - they seem to change far too often for me to know what I'm getting.  The Vanguard stocks seem to have gotten far worse in the last few years, and the Rem 700 SPS seems to be offered either with the SPS style stock or the old ADL one (or maybe I'm confused.)  Now I'm afraid I'd get the wrong one if I have it special ordered.


THE 700 ADL IS TOP FEED ONLY, WITH IRON SIGHTS ON IT.    THE SPS HAS THE HINGED FLOORPLATE AND NO IRON SIGHTS, along with that new stock design
I am not yelling, only placing my answers above where applicable.

you cannot defend America, so to speak, with just a bolt-action if you really want to beat up on our enemies.   that's why they have SAW's -- squad automatic weapons -- assigned to a squad.   so they can "LAY LEAD" / PAIN on our enemies!   if you want to defend America with a bolt action, then get a .45 ACP as well.......

I'd go with the recently-discontinued ADL synthetic, or the Vanguard.   the Vanguard stock i got two years ago was an excellent item in my opinion.  it's got a great stock on a .270 Win' that i got at Wal Mart when they went for $250 on a clearance!    recently (March '06) Wal Mart clearanced a bunch of rifles, for $299 I believe it was, at approx' 1000 of their stores in the United States!     WHAT IS THERE NOT TO LIKE ABOUT THIS COUNTRY?  

You are right.  you can get your brand new .30-06 for $400 with a little shopping.   and it'll be a good one, too.    

good luck,

ss'
Yet a little while and the wicked man shall be no more.   Though you mark his place he will not be there.   Ps. 37.

Offline BattleRifleG3

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« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2006, 02:56:45 PM »
Quote from: safetysheriff

you cannot defend America, so to speak, with just a bolt-action if you really want to beat up on our enemies.   ...if you want to defend America with a bolt action, then get a .45 ACP as well.......

I never said "just" a bolt action.  I said it has its place and I don't think it's on the shelf.  For those who may be mislead, I have four AKs and a G3, as well as a few sporting rifles and mil-surp bolt actions.  My point is that I have the other departments covered and this is one I think I could do better with.

And yes, a 45 is on the shopping list.
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Offline jpuke

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« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2006, 12:30:51 AM »
Scoutman,

The OAL of my rifle is 39.5 inches - handles like a dream in the field!  The barrel is close to 19", somewhere between 18" and 19", I really didn't measure it when I sent it to the 'smith.  I just gave him a mark that made the OAL 39.5".  I'm getting 2850 fps with a 150 gr Hornady with that barrel length (not a max. load either).  I only wish I could find some quality quick-release rings that were lighter; the Leupolds are great but they add a lot of weight.

Offline ScoutMan

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« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2006, 01:45:51 AM »
Quote
the Leupolds are great but they add a lot of weight.


Your coming in weight wise at 7 lbs with your present set up. That's about as close to "Valhalla" that you can get in this life.

ScoutMan
If you can get closer, get closer
If you can get steadier, get steadier.

A telescope helps you see; it does not help you hold and squeeze.-Jeff Cooper

Offline BattleRifleG3

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« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2006, 02:13:56 AM »
Quote from: ScoutMan
Quote
the Leupolds are great but they add a lot of weight.


Your coming in weight wise at 7 lbs with your present set up. That's about as close to "Valhalla" that you can get in this life.

ScoutMan


Did you mean Nirvana, or was that a deliberate arms related parallel?
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Offline ScoutMan

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« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2006, 10:14:03 AM »
No, Valhalla,

The Norse name for heaven.


SM
If you can get closer, get closer
If you can get steadier, get steadier.

A telescope helps you see; it does not help you hold and squeeze.-Jeff Cooper

Offline BattleRifleG3

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Brainstorming for multi-purpose 30-06
« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2006, 10:18:56 AM »
Quote from: ScoutMan
No, Valhalla,

The Norse name for heaven.


SM


I gotcha.  Figured Nirvana is about balance while Valhalla is about eternal war.  Maybe Valhana?
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