Tikka vs Ruger

[Todd1700]

deleted

[Todd1700]

Since I am being taken to task for my view that Rugers are not inherently accurate, I went back and pulled up the "Whats the most inaccurate rifle you have thread."

Of the 48 people that responded 16 stated that a ruger product was the least accurate firearm that they had ever owned. Making Rugers the most mentioned firearm by far in that thread. Here is what they said.

vernonp said; ( The poorest accuracy from these rifles has been the Ruger 77.)

Zachary said; (my LIMITED experience with Rugers, I have found them to be generally less accurate than my other rifles.)

Muddyboots said; (Ruger No.1 in 7RM finally beat me after two years of bedding, trigger work, mounts, you name it. never could get it better than 1.5" which for most is fine but not what I expect and usually get from my other rifles.)

James said; (The only rifle I couldn't get to shoot was an early model Ruger mini-14. I'm talking 8 inches at a 100 yds.)

DirtyHarry said; (No question, in my case a Ruger M77 in 30-06.)

skb2706 said; (gun in general - Mini 14 )

Squeeze said; (My next disappointment was a Ruger Mini 14. I had heard all of the accounts of poor accuracy, but I had my doubts that they could be THAT bad...No more doubts.)

Smokepole said; (Ruger 77 25-06 mid 80's 2" groups)

Rancher said; (The absolute worst is a Ruger Mini-14 Ranch rifle.)

I said; (Ruger Model 77 MK II in 7mm magnum.)

Ny Dan said; (Mini-14 Ranch....)

Jason said; (I'd have to go with Ruger as the most inaccurate factory rifles. Don't get me wrong, the M77 bolt guns are probably some of the most reliable guns out there, but I've never had one that would shoot anywhere close to a factory stock CZ (made in the last few years or so) or Savage. Not only are Ruger model 77s not so accurate, everything from their Number 1s to factory stock 10/22s are the same.)

theoldman said; (ruger,ruger, and ruger)

Buster51 said; (RUGER MINI 14 AND NOT JUST ONE 3 AND THEY WERE ALL BAD .)

azshooter said; (Ruger Mini-14 was by far the worst.)

Dang, looks like I'm not alone.

[ScoutMan]

Group size like sex is much over rated.

For field use group radius is more important group size. With group radius, your shot will hit within the radius of the group. Group diameter is a much harsher measurement.

What does this mean for field use. For example, a 3 minute rifle will keep its field radius into 4.5" at 300 yds. This would mean that with a perfect hold, any shot would stay on the vital zone (10"), at that distance.

Much more important is "shooter group size". By definintion, it is the group size a shooter can hold, under field conditions, assuming a "1 hole" ability of the rifle.

Lets be real! Any rifleman that can keep his rifle group radius, and his "holding group radius, inside 10" at 200 yds, can take any game animal on this Earth.

[Cement Man]

I guess I am lucky like Coyote Hunter.  I have three 77's that I have shot and all are around an inch or better from the bench (2 .308s and a 6.5 Swede).  I am a hunter and an inch is better than I can shoot in the field, so I don't take the accuracy issue any further.  Maybe I could tweak some more out of them - don't know, maybe I'll try someday.  I am happy the way they are.  As far as triggers go, I like about 3#and crisp.  I have installed $60 Timneys in my model 77s and adjusted them to 3#.  I have a new model 77 that I have not yet fired or installed aTimney.  I checked it today with my two trigger pull gauges.  It is 6# not 10#.  I never kept records, don't know if I even checked my others before installing Timneys, but this one feels about the same so the reference to a 10# trigger, in my experience, is an exaggeration.  The trigger pull is not really that bad on this rifle either, just heavier than I like.  I have been shooting and hunting for over 50 years and I have dealt with triggers that have been much worse.  I don't like a bad trigger, so when I can, I work on them or exchange triggers.  A good trigger is a joy and does contribute to better accuracy, but I could do very well for the rest of my days with the stock 6# trigger that exists on my newest model 77 and won't lose any game because of it.  Certainly benchrest shooters (and me, when I shoot at targets), would rather have a lighter trigger but to condemn the Ruger is in my mind, not entirely fair.  I really do have other guns (like a bolt action 12 ga. slug gun) that are far, far, worse.  I get inch and half groups with Federal Barnes sabots with it consistently, and have taken many deer with it, so triggers don't make or break a gun for me.  (If there was any way to improve that slug gun trigger I would - but I'll live with it otherwise because it is a shooter.)
To mix Mini 14's, #1s, and 10/22s into a comparison that is related to 77's and Tikkas is to me quite a stretch.  The Mini 14s and the 10/22 carbines were never intended to be target guns.  Some shoot far better than their reputation, but I believe they generally live up to reasonable expectations.  The target model Ruger rifles I have owned, used or seen have in my experience, lived up to expectations.  I have a Target 77/22 and a Terget 10/22 both shoot with anything in their class.  On the 77/22 I put in a target sear - wasn't bad to begin with, but very nice now, and the Target 10/22 is fine as is.  On my 10/22 carbines and other rifle, I install a target hammer - nice improvement.  My 10/22s shoot to my expectations, I enjoy them.
I said it before - I look at all design features in a rifle, not just the trigger, and I like the engineering in a Ruger 77 MKII.  The Ruger's styling, fit, and finish is fine with me as well. To me the Ruger is well worth the little effort to improve the trigger.  The only service issue I ever had with Ruger (on a Blackhawk revolver) I found their service to be excellent.  I like my Rugers very much, and feel no need to disparage any other brands or opinions.

[257 roberts]

I've had Ruger 77's in MANY calibers both tang models and the MKII's NEVER had one that didn't shoot, some better than others but they ALL shot OK

[Slamfire]

The walnut/blue Ruger is the closest thing to the custom rifles I've lusted for every since I started reading Jack O'Conner's articles in Outdoor Life. You can lust for them Finnish rifles if you want.  

[George Foster]

Todd,

Since you made the following statement about Tikkas I would like to know how many records Tikka holds for accuracy?

Unmodified straight out of the box they will. And I've seen damn few modified model 700's that would shoot any better.


Also so you will know in my 61 years of being around I have seen a lot more albino deer than accurate Tikkas.  In fact in the two clubs I belong to I never remember seeing anyone shooting with a Tikka.

I think you or someone else who thinks Tikkas are the greatest thing since sliced bread should request a Tikka forum.  You could extol the virtues of them there.

[Coyote Hunter]

Todd1700 –

The point about Ruger versus Tikka was that Ruger has been much more up front in notifying the general public of problems and potential problems. Still waiting to see Tikka place an ad to try and notify Tikka owners to check their serial numbers...

Maybe my buddy, my brother and I DO own all the accurate Rugers.  But what are the odds?

[Todd1700]

You know as well as I do that all the guns that do hold any records or that are used in benchrest competitions are highly specialized custom firearms. And as such are completely irrelevant to a discussion about out of the box accuracy of standard grade rifles. Go back and read. Even among the ruger defenders virtually all of them admit to having to modify them in some way to improve the accuracy. Replacing triggers, free floating the barrel, bedding the action, custom handloads, etc, etc. Maybe not all of that but at least some combination of two or more.

On the other hand of the 10 people that I currently know that have purchased a Tikka, myself included, every single one has been able to find at least two factory loads that will shoot sub inch groups at 100 yards. Some more than two and most were just satisfied with the loads they had already found and stopped looking or they may have found more. And none of us had to do a thing to them.

Bottem line. If you think the average Ruger M77 will shoot with the average Tikka straight out of the box then you haven't shot a good sampling of both guns.

[Todd1700]

Maybe my buddy, my brother and I DO own all the accurate Rugers. But what are the odds?

Two words man. Lottery Ticket. You are sitting around wasting luck talking to me when you could already be buying a condo on the Gulf of Mexico with your winnings.  

[Coyote Hunter]

Todd1700-

What I know is that my .22-250 is dead stock and my other Rugers have had nothing done to them except floating the barrel and polishing up the trigger.  Same with my hunting buddy’s Ruger.  My brother’s Ruger is also dead stock.  No bedding or trigger replacements in the lot.

Come to think of it, almost all my firearms – handguns, rifles, and muzzleloaders – get their triggers touched up.  The long guns get their barrels floated unless they are already that way. And they all get handloads.

While I rarely buy factory ammo, I always buy some when I first get a rifle.  So far I have had no trouble finding accurate loads for my Ruger rifles with either factory or handloaded ammunition.  The 0.50” 4-shot 200-yard group with my .22-250 was made using ammo I had developed and loaded for my Savage 110E - hardly what you could call a ‘custom handload’ for the Ruger.  My 7mm Mag likes Federal 160g Partitions, my .300 Win Mag likes WW 180g Power Point ammo.  Don’t know what else they like because the .300 has never fired any other factory ammo and it’s been way too many years since the 7mm Mag has seen anything but the Federal load. The .257 Roberts has seen a box of Federal 120g Partition ammo and shot it just fine, but it’s only seen handloads since.  These rifles get handloads not because they need them but because that’s what I shoot – regardless of the manufacturer of the firearm.

Feel free to include Mini-14’s in your argument if you wish, they are a very different animal and are not known for their accuracy.  My brother has two and as far as I’m concerned they are made to burn ammo, not hit things at log ranges.

I can’t say how an out-of-the-box Tikka shoots as I have zero experience with them.  But I’ve never made any claims one way or another, either.  I just find that people who claim to have “seen more albino deer in my lifetime than I have accurate Ruger bolt action rifles” are either
not being honest or they have little experience with Ruger rifles.

[Slamfire]

On the other hand of the 10 people that I currently know that have purchased a Tikka, myself included, every single one has been able to find at least two factory loads that will shoot sub inch groups at 100 yards. Some more than two and most were just satisfied with the loads they had already found and stopped looking or they may have found more. And none of us had to do a thing to them.

I can say pretty much the same thing about Savage 110s.  :roll:

[Todd1700]

I can say pretty much the same thing about Savage 110s

They are very accurate rifles on average. Cheap too. If you value function over looks and frills they are hard to beat.

[Todd1700]

The 0.50” 4-shot 200-yard group with my .22-250 was made using ammo I had developed and loaded for my Savage 110E - hardly what you could call a ‘custom handload’ for the Ruger.

No but a handload none the less.

my other Rugers have had nothing done to them except floating the barrel and polishing up the trigger.

Still that is after market modification. We are talking straight out of the box here with factory ammo.

The long guns get their barrels floated unless they are already that way. And they all get handloads.

Which goes a long way towards explaining why you have some accurate rifles.

I can’t say how an out-of-the-box Tikka shoots as I have zero experience with them.

And there's the basic problem with most of the folks jumping my ass and the ones voting in the poll I started. No offense and I honestly don't mean to piss you or anyone else off. Have a good one.

[George Foster]

Todd,

I think you are the one who needs to go BACK AND READ!!  YOU are the one who STATED DAMN FEW MODIFIED REM 700'S will outshoot a Tikka.  Kind of hard to back up statements when THERE ARE NO FACTS TO BACK THEM UP WITH ISN'T IT!!

[George Foster]

Todd,

I would still like to know how many accuracy records Tikka holds.  Also the originator of this thread Young Hunter NEVER asked about factory ammo accuracy.  He asked which was a better quality rifle, a true Mauser type controlled feed rifle or one with PLASTIC PARTS in it.  You are the one that tried to introduce that to this thread.  To myself being a reloader is a very important aspect of being a rifle shooter.  I have never seen a rifle that is more accurate with factory ammo than good handloads.  Now if you want to shoot and can afford to shoot only factory loads that is fine.

[victorcharlie]

Funny, but the most accurate rifle I've ever owned was an old tang safety Ruger M77 Heavy barrel........It didn't shoot factory loads very well, but shot my handloads extremely well.  Sad fact....a burglar liked it more than I did.

I like the design of a Ruger, very strong and reliable.  It's also a very good looking rifle.

I will say that most of the Rugers I've owned I had to do a little work on them to get them to shoot the way I wanted them to.  

All the Rugers I've had have been fine rifles, and they are made right here in the USA......

[Coyote Hunter]

They might shoot okay but they darn sure will not outshoot my "plain Jane" Remington Model 700's.

Unmodified straight out of the box they will. And I've seen damn few modified model 700's that would shoot any better.

Yeah, Remingtons can’t shoot any better than Ruger rifles.

OK, I floated the barrel on this one, just as I do all my rifles.  Guess that makes it "modified".

The target was shot using work-up loads, each successive shot using 0.5g more powder than the previous one.  I'd say the Remington acquitted itself very well considering the powder charge varied by a total of 4.0g.

[George Foster]

Coyote Hunter,

Actually Todd was inferring that Damn Few Modified 700's would shoot better than a Tikka.

[Coyote Hunter]

Coyote Hunter,

Actually Todd was inferring that Damn Few Modified 700's would shoot better than a Tikka.

Like all the Rugers that shoot well, I guess my only centerfire Remington is one of those 'damn few" modified Remington's that will shoot well?

Went to the range today to work up new loads for the 7mm Mag and .30-30.  Took the .308 Remington for the far steel.  When I was done with load development I took three shots over the chrono at 100 yards with the Remington before moving the 400 yard line.  The first two shots, as measured with my calipers, went into 0.138”.  The third shot opened the group up to 0.365”.  

Wish I had a Tikka so I could have groups a guy could be proud of!

[vernonp]

What a rifles best ever 3 shot group is tells you nothing. If you shoot most rifles a lot, especially 3 shot groups there will be some very small ones. At most Benchrest matches after the first 5 benches has fired the average for all of those will be in the .3's. Of course these size groups will not place anywhere except near the bottom. The winner for a 100 yd group ag which is 5 5 shot groups average for the 25 shots will usually be in the low .2's and often in the .1's. What is important is what a rifle will honestly average for several different groups for different days, weeks, months and so on. These factory rifles that average under 1/2 inch all day long as we  hear is so much  BS. Just keep an honest average of ALL groups you shoot and see what they average.

[Todd1700]

These factory rifles that average under 1/2 inch all day long as we hear is so much BS.

I strongly suspect as much as well but I refuse to call anyone that I do not personally know a flat out lie.

I would still like to know how many accuracy records Tikka holds.

How many does a non customized or non custom built Ruger hold? Ridiculous question. Tikkas are an econo model of the Sako line. And by it's very design and nature not really intened for intense modification. But for 99% of the uses it will ever be put to it doesn't need any.

The rifles that do hold records are all custom built benchrest rifles. Yes they may start, for example, with a Remington M-700 action as their basis but by the time you add a custom trigger, a custom made barrel, a custom stock, free float the barrel, glass bed the action, etc, etc,.....  Well lets put it this way, holding that rifle up as an example of that companies standard firearm would be like holding up Dale Jrs NASCAR Monte Carlo as an example of what you get when you buy a Monte Carlo off your local Chevy dealers lot. Like a Burro and a thoroughbred they may share a distant past gene or two but ultimately they are completely different animals.

YOU are the one who STATED DAMN FEW MODIFIED REM 700'S will outshoot a Tikka.

There is a serious difference between modified and a complete customization which is what I think you are meaning. And even with a trigger job and the barrel freefloated you won't see many rem 700s that will shoot any better. Maybe as good but not any better.

[George Foster]

Todd,

For your information all the rifles that hold accuracy records are not custom built rifles or 700's.  But there are none that are held by Tikkas.  I asked you to back up your statement about "Modified 700's" not being able to outshoot Out of the Box Tikkas and YOU want to spin it off in another way.  As I said before it is awfully hard to back up statements when you have NO FACTS to do so with!!

Since all you want to do is squiggle and wiggle and can't back up what you say I will post on this thread no longer.  As I said before you should see about getting a Tikka forum started where you can extol the virtues of the rifle.

[Todd1700]

For your information all the rifles that hold accuracy records are not custom built rifles

Then by all means enlighten us. Because I sure haven't seen a standard mass produced rifle at a competion.

I asked you to back up your statement about "Modified 700's" not being able to outshoot Out of the Box Tikkas and YOU want to spin it off in another way

By modified I mean trigger job, free float the barrel. Not customizing which would entail replacing parts like trigger, barrel. Sorry if you couldn't grab ahold of that one. And no most of the modified 700's I've seen wouldn't really shoot any better than a standard Tikka. Some quite good mind you but not better. Before you see any drastic improvements you are talking custom work.  

I will post on this thread no longer.

Well..............Bye I guess!

[Jon_E]

Hi. I've been looking at the Ruger m77 Mark II Compact and the Tikka T3 Hunter. Which one is the best quality? This rifle will be in .243 and I'll will mainly be hunting deer. Thanks. Alec

I have the Ruger M77, MKII all weather in 30-06 and very happy with it.  If I purchase another hunting rifle it will also be a Ruger all weather model.

[Cement Man]

I have several hunting rifles - several brands and models, and some custom.  Considering many years of experience, the virtues of the rifles that I have, and what I like and want in a bolt hunting rifle, I also found the Ruger MKII All-Weather to be my first choice. I would definitely buy another.  Mine is a .308, I use it primarily for whitetail hunting, and I had 2" of barrel lopped off.  I like 'em a bit shorter in the trees and brush. I also have a MkII International in .308, but I hate beating it up too much - to me it's too pretty.  I don't shorten my barrels on rifles I use in open country, or with certain other cartrideges.

That Ruger Compact looks pretty interesting to me as well.  In my opinion, the standard LOP on many rifles is longer than needed.  I have Contender carbines, some NEF Handi-Rifles and Encores, where I have  shorter stocks and I like them in the woods. I bought one of those new Ruger 10/22s (compact) with the short stock and short barrel and it is really a joy to shoot and carry.  I am 5'11", so I am pretty average in size.  I have to go look at one of those Compact Rugers......

[Coyote Hunter]

YOU are the one who STATED DAMN FEW MODIFIED REM 700'S will outshoot a Tikka.

...And even with a trigger job and the barrel freefloated you won't see many rem 700s that will shoot any better. Maybe as good but not any better.

So, let's see some of these out-of-the-box Tikka groups you are talking about.

[Todd1700]

This is about typical. Lots of blow back from the gravel damaged the target a bit. We shoot in a large gravel pit on my land. We have room to shoot out to 300 yards in it. Sort of like having your own range.

This was 100 yards. Tikka T-3, 25-06, Hornady 117 gr factory ammo.


Back view of target



Front view with a dime covering the group.

[schunter1128]

Not trying to p!ss anyone off.... but there is no comparison....

Tikka vs ruger is like.... a brand new Cadillac vs a Neon

The SRT4 is a quick ride

[hawkeye1903]

Young Hunter - bet your head is spinning.  I've purchased two Tikkas in the last four years.  Both around $500 new, although I think they cost around $600 now.

Both Tikkas - 243 & 270 I can lay a nickle over the groups consistently with two kinds of factory ammo - prefers Hornaday/Rem.  Both rifles have held up well under hunting conditions - especially the 270 on deep backpack hunts.  The Tikka is a high quality gun in every aspect and tough.  The poly trigger guard and mag are tough.  Very Happy with both and when Tikka comes out in .325 WSM I'll buy it.  

I don't own a Ruger, but work part-time and shoot at an outdoor gun range for the last four years.  Usually 2-3 times a week.  The most accurate rifles out of the box were Tikkas, Savages, and the occasionaly $1000 plus type rifles.  No problems were observed with these rifles.  The Rugers were hit and miss on accuracy, although any rifle that shoots a 1.5 inch group consistently will work just fine in the field on deer.  Some years ago a 1.5 group was considered great and it really is.

One last note - the 16.5 inch barrel on the Ruger Compact will significantly reduce velocity which in my opinion is critical for a small round like the 243.  The 22 inch barrel on a Tikka well keep the velocity much higher.  Same for a Ruger with longer barrel.  You should really consider the longer barrel in your choice.  The extra weight with a longer barrel also helps steady those crosshairs shooting off hand - (standing no support.)  Second last note - don't pay retail, always offer less.  Third last note - don't be cheap on the scope, it will cost you more in the long run when you have to replace with a good scope.  Good Luck.