Author Topic: .405 Winchester ? (Read 6080 times)

CyberSniper · « **on:** May 14, 2006, 09:57:49 AM »

Has anybody had any experience with the .405 Winchester ?
Opinions on the caliber ?

Cecil · « **Reply #1 on:** May 14, 2006, 12:08:43 PM »

I have only owned one for about three months now , have been shooting and working up loads for it , haven't had a chance to hunt with it yet, The Hornaday reloading manual show's it too have an edge over the 450 Marlin more velocity and energy in 300gr bullet. It should be more than enough for anything in lower 48. Out to 200 yards.

Mikey · « **Reply #2 on:** May 15, 2006, 01:27:16 PM »

The 405 Winchester was one of Teddy Roosevelt's favorite African big game cailbers. I believe he took all of the 'big five' with his Winchester. Soooo, it should do for you for the lower 48 or even further north. HTH. Mikey.

msorenso · « **Reply #3 on:** May 15, 2006, 03:11:01 PM »

Yes he did, he called it the big stick!

quickdtoo · « **Reply #4 on:** May 15, 2006, 03:18:13 PM »

It's got to be even better now with modern bullet designs, I'm currently working up loads for the 350gr Barnes XFB in my H&R Target .405 Winchester. :grin:

Tim

muskeg13 · « **Reply #5 on:** May 15, 2006, 08:17:57 PM »

Teddy Roosevelt called the M1895 in .405 "Big Medicine" and it is. I shot a moose with it last year using Hornady 300gr SPs. My buddy was using an M1A .308 and got off the first shot(s), mosquito bites, and more bites that followed did no apparent damage (using Sierra 150 Game Kings). I knocked it down on the first shot with the .405, and when it tried to regain it's footing, hit it again. It was downed in it's tracks.

muskeg13 · « **Reply #6 on:** May 15, 2006, 08:24:48 PM »

by the way, when we shot the moose, we were hunting in bear country in AK. My gun nut buddy is now trying to find a .405 to buy.

msorenso · « **Reply #7 on:** May 16, 2006, 02:12:45 AM »

I wish I had one in 1895 and ruger 1.

GEMSBUCK · « **Reply #8 on:** May 16, 2006, 03:35:04 AM »

the 405 is a fun caliber...easy to reload and plenty of snot for elk,moose and larger PG in Africa though it is underpowered for and serious DG other than spots and leo

CyberSniper · « **Reply #9 on:** May 16, 2006, 05:49:47 AM »

Ok, at least a few people with actual experience showed up.
I'm under the impression the .405 has not become all that
popular so far. Maybe due in part to a limited selection of rifles
for it I suspect.
And as for the .308 and the moose...I'm sure a heavier
bullet would have done the job. Those 150 grain "deer bullets"
were a little out of place there.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #10 on:** May 16, 2006, 08:20:43 AM »

Quote from: CyberSniper

Ok, at least a few people with actual experience showed up.
I'm under the impression the .405 has not become all that
popular so far. Maybe due in part to a limited selection of rifles
for it I suspect.
And as for the .308 and the moose...I'm sure a heavier
bullet would have done the job. Those 150 grain "deer bullets"
were a little out of place there.

Another reason, the 45-70 can equal the performance of the 405, personally I would rather have a 45-70. JMHO.

Here is a very good article. http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ammunition/bully_041805/

Syncerus · « **Reply #11 on:** May 16, 2006, 08:35:02 AM »

Why was your buddy using bullets known for quick expansion on deer and antelope on moose? That was operator error, not equipment failure. He doesn't need a new rifle; he needs to learn to use the one he's got.

Syncerus

Yukon Jack · « **Reply #12 on:** May 16, 2006, 12:21:57 PM »

Quote from: Mikey

The 405 Winchester was one of Teddy Roosevelt's favorite African big game cailbers. I believe he took all of the 'big five' with his Winchester. Soooo, it should do for you for the lower 48 or even further north. HTH. Mikey.

Teddy used the 405 on lion, but used the 500-450 H&H double on the larger animals (elephant, rhino, buffalo, etc..). Those that haven't read the book, really should. My best recollection was he made a mess of the lion and it took several shots from the 405 before giving up the ghost. Could be attributed to Teddy's sorry shooting or the bullets available during that time.

Demonical · « **Reply #13 on:** May 26, 2006, 07:52:34 AM »

I think one knock on the .405Win is the fact it is pretty much only made in the 1895 Winchester. From what I have seen of that it is not a very handy gun to carry due to the position of the magazine and lever, there is no comfortable hand position.

When Winchester brought this rifle back out I wanted one. I still do I guess... more for the historic aspect then anything else... It's not like I needs one.

frank405 · « **Reply #14 on:** June 07, 2006, 07:50:00 AM »

I have a USRAC 1895 rifle with a set of XS sights and sling attachments for easy carry. I shoot a 310 grain gas check bullet with 53 grains of Reloader 7 in Hornady brass and a Winchester primer.
After four years in the field and lots of miles carring it all over the northwest corner of Wyoming, spring, fall, and summer, I really do like it. It has killed a pile of deer, whitetail and mule deer, two elk and lots of picket pins. Everything has hit the ground right after being hit except for one whitetail buck that ran 100 yards and fell in Franc's fork of the Greybull. That was a jacketed 300 grain Hornady factory load. Everything else has been the cast load. Living in grizzly bear country makes you carry something a little bigger than a 243 and I chose the 405. Once or twice a year I go to the Cody museum and gaze at one of TR's 405 rifles on display and wish mine looked as good.
It sure does carry good on horseback (muleback also) as do all lever guns.

azmike · « **Reply #15 on:** June 11, 2006, 03:32:28 AM »

Quote from: Demonical

I think one knock on the .405Win is the fact it is pretty much only made in the 1895 Winchester. From what I have seen of that it is not a very handy gun to carry due to the position of the magazine and lever, there is no comfortable hand position.

When Winchester brought this rifle back out I wanted one. I still do I guess... more for the historic aspect then anything else... It's not like I needs one.

+1, but I'd prefer it in 30-40 Krag or '06.

G Curtis · « **Reply #16 on:** August 07, 2006, 12:03:26 PM »

I have been shooting several 405's over the last couple of years. I have an original 95 and new USRAC 95 and and USRAC high wall. This is hands down my favorite cartridge for loading and shooting. I have tried the various jacketed fair and have plunged headlong into the cast bullet fare. Best load so far has been the RCBS 360 grain flat point gas check sized to .412 or .414 for the original winchester, loaded with 45 - 50 grains of your favorite meduim fast powder to provide about 1750 fps. It does the job and doesn't have the kick of the new Hornady factroy load. Have even tried black powder under a 400 grain cast bullet in the high wall for a bit of 40-72 WCF shooting. If the high-wall were just a little heavier it would be my BPCS rifle. The USRAC 95 is without question the most accurate lever gun I have ever shot. It rings the 3 foot gong at 450 yards just about every shot. In my opnion it is the great lost secret of early 20th century rifle. The 45-70 is a great load but the 405 takes it to the next level.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #17 on:** August 07, 2006, 01:37:02 PM »

Quote from: G Curtis on August 07, 2006, 12:03:26 PM

I have been shooting several 405's over the last couple of years. I have an original 95 and new USRAC 95 and and USRAC high wall. This is hands down my favorite cartridge for loading and shooting. I have tried the various jacketed fair and have plunged headlong into the cast bullet fare. Best load so far has been the RCBS 360 grain flat point gas check sized to .412 or .414 for the original winchester, loaded with 45 - 50 grains of your favorite meduim fast powder to provide about 1750 fps. It does the job and doesn't have the kick of the new Hornady factroy load. Have even tried black powder under a 400 grain cast bullet in the high wall for a bit of 40-72 WCF shooting. If the high-wall were just a little heavier it would be my BPCS rifle. The USRAC 95 is without question the most accurate lever gun I have ever shot. It rings the 3 foot gong at 450 yards just about every shot. In my opnion it is the great lost secret of early 20th century rifle. The 45-70 is a great load but the 405 takes it to the next level.

What next level might that be?

Old Time Hunter · « **Reply #18 on:** September 05, 2006, 04:18:43 PM »

THE HIGHER ONE?

Come on now, the .405 is almost twice the cartridge of the .45-70!

quickdtoo · « **Reply #19 on:** September 05, 2006, 04:37:12 PM »

Quote from: Old Time Hunter on September 05, 2006, 04:18:43 PM

THE HIGHER ONE?

Come on now, the .405 is almost twice the cartridge of the .45-70!

Twice the level of trapdoor .45-70 loads, but the Ruger levels go well above what the .405W is capable of. Using Hodgdon's 2006 Annual data for both, best velocity for a 400gr bullet is 2108fps for the .45-70 and 1945fps for the .405W. Even the 1895 levergun loads are slightly above the .405W at 2002fps.

Hodgdon .405W data

The .405W is available in Ruger's #1 Tropical model....

http://www.gunblast.com/Ruger_No1_405.htm

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #20 on:** September 05, 2006, 05:22:15 PM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on September 05, 2006, 04:37:12 PM

Quote from: Old Time Hunter on September 05, 2006, 04:18:43 PM
THE HIGHER ONE?

Come on now, the .405 is almost twice the cartridge of the .45-70!

Twice the level of trapdoor .45-70 loads, but the Ruger levels go well above what the .405W is capable of. Using Hodgdon's 2006 Annual data for both, best velocity for a 400gr bullet is 2108fps for the .45-70 and 1945fps for the .405W. Even the 1895 levergun loads are slightly above the .405W at 2002fps.

Hodgdon .405W data

The .405W is available in Ruger's #1 Tropical model....

http://www.gunblast.com/Ruger_No1_405.htm

Thanks quickdtoo, I am glad someone else knows there cartridges. Everyone always wants to use the factory trapdoor level 45-70 for comparison, they tend to forget the lever action and the T/C and Ruger levels.

Old Time Hunter · « **Reply #21 on:** September 06, 2006, 02:20:33 PM »

Yep, I am guilty! The .405W is still a heck of a lot cooler cartridge though! Not everyone has them. And personally I'll take a '95 Winchester chambered for .405W on any large game general hunt over any .45-70 in any other rifle package. Even some of my personal favorites like my '86 Win, my '95 Marlin, and my actual favorite target big bore...my 32" C.Sharps.

Just remember...it is BIG MEDICINE!

quickdtoo · « **Reply #22 on:** September 06, 2006, 02:34:57 PM »

Everyone has their favorite Old Time Hunter, I happen to like both of em, but I only have one .405W but I have 3 .45-70s.

The .405W will shoot the 300gr Hornady SP at 2435fps which is a fine load and some day I hope to kill something with it besides paper!! The .45-70s are capable of 2600fps with a 300gr bullet, or 1800fps with a 500gr bullet, that's their forte, flexibility.

Tim

GEMSBUCK · « **Reply #23 on:** September 13, 2006, 02:09:09 AM »

1800 with a 500 gr bullet out of a 45-70?

? that I'd like to see. I own a Ruger#1 and a Marlin 1895 both in 45-70 so I don't need to be convinced as to the potency of that handloaded caliber. But come on now 500gr@1800fps?

Please tell me the powder that you're using that can be so compressed as to allow the proper seating depth and crimp on a 500 gr bullet and still burns so effeciently.
Loaded with 52.0 grs of IMR 3031/405 JSP/Fed. 215 primer/Starline case is my most accurate load from a 24" Marlin (also was from my Buffalo Classic 32" as well) it's only leaving the barrel at 1800fps

EsoxLucius · « **Reply #24 on:** September 13, 2006, 04:52:02 AM »

Marshall Stanton lists 1820 fps for his 525 grain hard cast from a 22" barrelled 45-70.
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/open_sight/archive_open_sight.htm/21

quickdtoo · « **Reply #25 on:** September 13, 2006, 06:13:38 AM »

Gemsbuck, take a look in the Lyman 48th Ruger data, a max load of 57grs H4895 nets 1879fps with a 500gr jacketed with a COL of 2.930. They also list a 500gr cast bullet at 1801fps using N135, COL 2.835". You're right, it's not gonna happen in a short throated firearm unless the proper projectile is selected such as some of the bore rider bullets like the Crater bullet.

Tim

GEMSBUCK · « **Reply #26 on:** September 13, 2006, 07:00:57 AM »

Marshal is a good guy, sharp on many lead loads but I'd have to see a 5 shot spread across a good chrony to swallow that.What works on paper seldom holds exact on the range. I'd settle for just seeing a 500+ gr bullet seated deep enough over such a powder charge to not see the entire cannelure and crimped in the cannelure for 1. And another a reciever that can handle such stress over time safely.50-60,000 #will show stress fractures in most any weapon.
Heck! I can load with Nitro Glycerin and a 600gr bullet getting super speed with such a heavy bullet but it isn't any more safe than those stressed loads

quickdtoo · « **Reply #27 on:** September 13, 2006, 07:56:43 AM »

The Hornady 6th shows their 500gr RN and FMJ-RN with a COL of 2.925" at 1800fps with IMR4198 and IMR3031, MAP is 40kcup, the same as Lyman's data for Ruger levels. Hodgdon sets the limit for Ruger levels to 50kcup, but shows only 400gr bullets at 2108fps.

Tim

Ramrod · « **Reply #28 on:** October 19, 2006, 03:05:11 PM »

Quote from: Yukon Jack on May 16, 2006, 12:21:57 PM

Quote from: Mikey
The 405 Winchester was one of Teddy Roosevelt's favorite African big game cailbers. I believe he took all of the 'big five' with his Winchester. Soooo, it should do for you for the lower 48 or even further north. HTH. Mikey.
Teddy used the 405 on lion, but used the 500-450 H&H double on the larger animals (elephant, rhino, buffalo, etc..). Those that haven't read the book, really should. My best recollection was he made a mess of the lion and it took several shots from the 405 before giving up the ghost. Could be attributed to Teddy's sorry shooting or the bullets available during that time.

Here is a guy who reads history books instead of internet crap!
Funny thing, the sorry shooting/vs bad bullet construction thing is still going on 100 years later. I guess that's how some folks get suckerd into $1.00- $2.00 apeice bullets.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #29 on:** October 20, 2006, 01:31:21 AM »

Quote from: Ramrod on October 19, 2006, 03:05:11 PM

Quote from: Yukon Jack on May 16, 2006, 12:21:57 PM
Quote from: Mikey
The 405 Winchester was one of Teddy Roosevelt's favorite African big game cailbers. I believe he took all of the 'big five' with his Winchester. Soooo, it should do for you for the lower 48 or even further north. HTH. Mikey.
Teddy used the 405 on lion, but used the 500-450 H&H double on the larger animals (elephant, rhino, buffalo, etc..). Those that haven't read the book, really should. My best recollection was he made a mess of the lion and it took several shots from the 405 before giving up the ghost. Could be attributed to Teddy's sorry shooting or the bullets available during that time.
Here is a guy who reads history books instead of internet crap!
Funny thing, the sorry shooting/vs bad bullet construction thing is still going on 100 years later. I guess that's how some folks get suckerd into $1.00- $2.00 apeice bullets.

Do us all a favor and give it a rest. I think 99% of the people here are tired of the premium bullet debate. I know I am.