Dogs

[Qaz]

Sorry Graybeard, I may have done this wrong. The point I was trying to make was that people tend to read more into animal behavior than is there, or exagerate what is or was actually happening, just as they do with kids. We should all be responsible pet owner, but we are not. Just because a dog crosses your property doesn't mean it should be shot any more than a kid should be.

Qaz

[victorcharlie]

Just because a dog crosses your property doesn't mean it should be shot any more than a kid should be.
Qaz

I guess that depends on the dog.

[dharvey]

I've seen similar threads on other forums and these AWAYS generate a lot of passion. :grin:  The bottom line...  Land owners have the right to protect their property and family. If dogs are running their cattle or chasing their kids, then they have become a danger to the landowner's livelihood and should be dealt with. Most times it's an unpleasant but necessary task. Other times the dogs are simply being dogs which don't recognize boundaries and are generally no threat to anything or anyone. Most responsible dog owners will take care of the situation given an opportunity. Those who don't are just being plain negligent and before long there dogs WILL become a nuisance or threat and will have to be dealt with. There are legal ways of approaching this that will relieve the land owner from liability.

Those with a shoot-on-site mentallity will never get any compassion from me. In my opinion, these types of individuals too often enjoy killing things just for the sake of killing and are looking for an excuse to do so. These are the types of individuals that kill Fluffy and tell everyone that it was "growling" at me so I shot it, or it was pooping in my yard... I've known too many individuals like this and rarely enjoyed their company.

There are so many variables to this discussion that will never be agreed upon but a certain amount of reasonableness will get us by.  

[beemanbeme]

If they were "responsible dog owners" there wouldn't be a problem in the first place.  
I have called numerous folks about their dogs and rarely do I get a "responsible dog owner" response.  More often, its "well there ain't no leash laws out here" (they haven't read the rest of the law) or "I just can't keep 'em home" (they really don't care) or "they're just playing with those cows, sheep, geese, chickens, what have you. They won't hurt them."  
There is a lot of difference between a valued, cared-for pet or working dog and some mis-bred cur that was picked up as a pup 'cause it was cute or someone was giving them away and is dumped in the yard to fend for itself.  Blanket statements just don't fit.

[qajaq59]

In most of the states we've lived in shooting a dog would not be legal, unless you were attacked. Doesn't seem like breaking the law with a gun in your hand would be a great idea? It just might cost you a nice rifle.

[Coyote Hunter]

Following the logic of this string of posts should we just shoot the neighbor kids that come on your property if they are chaseing our dog, cat or our children? How about if they walk through your yard on the way to school and wear a path in it. If this sounds crazy, so do a lot of the replies. Dogs go visit when they get loose and they chase cats. Cats kill birds, mice, etc... it is what they do. I have seen very few dogs that were malicious in intent, but I have seen quite a few kids that were. Think about it  :-D  :-D

Qaz

Think about it?  OK, done.  There is a distinct difference between roaming dogs and kids.  

There is also a difference between a) roaming dogs on ***my*** property, and b)  ***my*** dogs and cats on ***my*** property.

I’ve rarely had a problem with kids running through my property, but I have had a problem with inconsiderate adults riding their horses and driving their vehicles through it.  (Didn’t mind the horses as long as they stayed on the perimeter, but one day we came home to find a pile of horse crap 5 feet from the front door.  The tracks indicated they rider hadn’t stopped to say “Hello” but was taking a shortcut to his house.)  I did have a problem with the neighbor kids driving golf buckets of old balls onto my property and leaving them.  In all cases the solution was to talk to the offenders, not shoot them.  In the case of the kids I caught them in the act and made them pick up the balls.  The next time I talked to the parents, end of problem.

Funny thing, I have never had a kid bite me, but I wear a permanent scar from a dog bite.  I was later able to determine that the dog had had its rabies shots, so all I got was a tetanus shot, some antibiotics and a big bill for the emergency room services.  My sister was bitten by a stray, fortunately not rabid, but we had a couple rabid strays we had to put down.  

As to your having seen “very few dogs that were malicious in intent”, perhaps you need to take a jog around my neighborhood.  I live on a 1 mile circle and there are vicious dogs at several of the homes along the way.  Fortunately they are ***usually*** inside the owner’s fence.  When they are not, they will chase you or block your path.  Growls and bared teeth don’t indicate “nice doggie” to me.

[Coyote Hunter]

Victorcharlie –

Sounds to me like we have the same neighbors!

We don’t have a fence, nor does or neighbor to the south.  One day I got a call from my daughter.  She had parked her car in the barn and was afraid to walk to the house due to two aggressive dogs owned by that neighbor.  I got a bat and escorted her to the house, then went to have a talk with the neighbor, who denied there was a problem.  I thanked him for his time and mentioned that now I knew how to handle the situation.  Funny, the dogs were always on a leash or inside the neighbor’s kennel area after that.  Good thing, too.

The neighbor across the road had a dog that was pissing on my newspaper every morning.  Talking to the owner didn’t help, a BB gun did.

The neighbor a couple places to the north had the dogs that were chasing my girls from the school bus to the car – we were afraid to let them walk a couple hundred yards to our home.  The dogs would put their paws up on the glass and bark.  These same dogs were also jogger chasers.  One suddenly disappeared (not my doing, but I suspect another neighbor).  That was the time I started carrying a handgun when I drove the girls to the bus in the morning.  The other ran out in front of my car one evening as I approached the school bus stop.  I hit the brakes but was on gravel.  Wasn’t all that disappointed with the results of the encounter, though - thumpety-thump-thump, problem solved.

[MI VHNTR]

Following the logic of this string of posts should we just shoot the neighbor kids that come on your property if they are chaseing our dog, cat or our children? How about if they walk through your yard on the way to school and wear a path in it. If this sounds crazy, so do a lot of the replies. Dogs go visit when they get loose and they chase cats. Cats kill birds, mice, etc... it is what they do. I have seen very few dogs that were malicious in intent, but I have seen quite a few kids that were. Think about it  :-D  :-D

Qaz

You'd change your mind if old Rover and a couple of his canine friends try to have you for lunch. Been there, done that. Keep your dog/cat/pet where it belongs.  SSS  MI VHNTR

[corbanzo]

The comparison between dogs and children is interesting... though stupid.  Kids are kids, and have a lot of learning to do, which sometimes goes by slowly.  Dogs learn fairly quickly, and we aren't talking about getting bothered by puppies.  Full grown animals are what cause these problems.  

My buddy had a problem with his neighbors cat crapping and peeing all over his yard, so we solved the problem.  Not by killing it, I have a semi-auto bb pistol that shoots 16 shots at about 500fps, emptied it at the cat every time we saw him in the yard, he stopped coming by, quick animal training.

[victorcharlie]

I regard to the dog I shot 20 years ago.......I called the local sheriff's office and talked to an officer about the problem more as a courtesy and to make sure I understood the law, and what to expect from the local LEO's before pulling the trigger.  They were the ones that told me I had every right to shoot the dogs and there was nothing criminal about it.

That said, there are MORAL, and ETHICAL issues that need to be thought of before taking action.

I'm older, a little wiser, and more experienced now.....that's why I spent the money on the fence.  I now feel that I have done every thing possible short of shooting that I can possibly do to provide for my security.......well, except calling the dog catcher.......or filing a civil suit and sueing.

I really don't want to make trouble for my neighbor......and this is the difference between the man I was, and the man I am.  Love your neighbor as you love yourself.  Yes, I spent a little cash but I seemed to have solved the problem for now.

Don't misunderstand me.....I don't mean that I won't shoot to kill a dog, but now choose to consider the other guy just a little more than I did in the past.

[killdeer]

Most dog owners are clueless when it comes to what their dogs do on other folks property. If your dog is agressive, you better restrain him. I shot very few dogs but chasing livestock or acting in a threatening manner ended their days with no regrets.
 I have seen strange dogs bed down with our cattle and left them unmolested.
 I kept the cat herd pretty well thinned down as a kid around our place. Picked up a few skills along the way. Night shooting, how to stalk a cat that's stalking a rabbit, and just generally how to outsneak those damned sneaky cats.

[nealglen37]

Victorcharlie.....................I think your post was the best one so far................even better than my own......................I don't agree with it all....................but you make some very wise and valid points.

[dharvey]

If they were "responsible dog owners" there wouldn't be a problem in the first place.

Beeman... Interesting response... I am assuming you are a land owner, perhaps with livestock or a dog on the property? Probably a responsible one at that. Have any of your animals went through, jumped over, or dug under the fence? Animals are animals. Regardless of how responsible people are, there WILL come a time when the animal will get out and encroach on our neighbor's property, whether they are a pure bred, well cared for dog or a mis-bred cur. This of itself does not make a person an irresponsible owner. It's what we do to keep it from happening again that defines what type of owner we are and ultimately whether our pets become a problem to our neighbors. I would never doubt what you say about the stupid responses you get from people. They are ingnorant and that leaves you the unpleasant task of protecting your own. However, I'm sure any one of us reading this topic would prefer a call from our neighbors giving US an opportunity to take care of the situation before they kill our animal. If we don't then our animals become the victims of our stupidity.  

[j two dogs]

I dearly love my dogs. I currently own and english setter who I refer to as "knuckle head" he is still in the puppy stage and chews everything up and digs holes better than a back hoe.
I have shot dogs in the past and it hurts me to do it. One was part pit bull part coon hound stray that had intimadated mammaw on several occasions, ie blocked path to wash house and growled with slow adavance pushing her back into the house. This particular dog was just passing through the day he caught a 150 gr. core-lokt, but I knew what he was capable of. The problem with letting dogs run deer especially in winter months. When the dog gets done running the deer he goes home to a warm bed and a can of go-joe, while the deer may already be stressed by the cold winter temps., shortage of forage and could poss. die from and long drawn out chase. So yes I hunt to eat, and I don't kill just for the heck of it, but I am also a conservationist as well as every responcible hunter should be. Tough question, Tougher answers each has to make his own, and then live with it.

[beemanbeme]

dharvey, one can "pick" at any situation or play "what if" til the cows come home and it doesn't change the statement.  Or to put it another way, "good fences make good neighbors".

I don't think the thread here is about the once ocassion when Fifi slips out the door and puts your cat up a tree.  Or the one ocassion when Bowser comes over and chases your heifers around the lot.  (Now understand, if Bowser is just having his idea of fun, I run him off and call the folks; if Bowser is actually biting and snapping at the heifers, he gets the SSS treatment.  No questions asked.) But when it become a often thing, then its pretty obvious that the owners haven't a concern, so why should you.  

One really big problem I have is the newbies coming to the country.  They have some sort of idealized idea of what country life should be.  And it usually entails having several dogs.  So they get the dog(s) and they haven't the slightest idea of how to train them nor how to keep them.  And so the dogs run loose --hey, hey, no leash law-- and become a nusince.  Then when the neighbors have to take care of their problem for them, they think its the neighbors that are bad.

Not to toot my own horn but I've never had to go get one of my dogs nor have to herd my stock off someone else's property.  A good neighbor is one that doesn't wait until someone complains before he takes care of a problem.  :grin:

[dharvey]

Beeman,

I don't think you and I are too far apart on our thoughts on this issue. As for not ever having any cattle get out or anything... wow. Kudos to you! :toast:  However, it was the following quote that sent me the direction I took...

...its my opinion............if a dog does not have a collar......you don't know who it belongs to.............or it won't come when you try to call it.................then you should consider it an over grown coyote.........and put it under.

None of the criteria meet what a responsible person would consider enough of a threat to kill a dog.

[DavOh]

I love dogs. I have one now and have had one most of my life. If one's just coming around doin it's business in my yard, so be it I shoo it away and that's the end of it. However....

POINT BLANK.... CANINE, HUMAN OR ANYTHING ELSE.... IF YOU THREATEN ME OR MY FAMILY, YOU WILL CATCH A BULLET.  :evil:

Texas has been described as a "make my day state" because if an animal or a human either one threatens the safety of myself or my family, the use of deadly force is not illegal used in defense...

I have shot dogs for many reasons... even my own dogs on account of disease. I hate it but it must be done soemtimes...

If you would like I'll provide biblical references to this... Animal life DOES NOT supercede a humans... if you beleive animals do, go join PETA...

Yes they are pets and yes some people treat their animals like humans to an irresponsible level... but that does note make them human...

Build a fence to keep them out?! What? Punish the land owner for the neighbor's irresponsibility?  As a land owner, am I going to spend possibly 10s of thousands of dollars on dog proof fence? or am I going to pull out my .308 and spend 75 cents.  Even if the neighbor sues me, I'm still out only a few thousand as opposed to fortifying my property. Or more if the dog runs 10 pounds of weight off each of my cattle(if i had cattle that is, I live in suburbia but that's not the point).

Yes animals get loose. My dog figured out how to open the back gate, but we chased her down and brought her home. That's what a responsible owner does. They do not say "oh she'll come home eventually" and go on about their business. Does a loose cow harass other live stock? Maybe a bull chases heffers during that time of year, but they dont go around killing sheep and chickens and calves, and little kids.  Yes they're a hazard on the road but that's another matter.

I've been distracted by this for long enough. Time to get back to work.  

[nealglen37]

I guess I should explain the statment I made. All dogs are not a problem.............if you see a dog in your pasture that looks well feed and has a sleek coat most of the time he won't bother you................he will usually come up and hang around.............because he likes people......and is just lost or ran away looking for a mate..................however i am refering to the scroungy looking dogs............they usually have poor coats......are underfead and run or skulk away from people..........obvious conclusion is dod A.) is being cared for by some person and is just lost...............he likes people. dog B.) propbably through no fault of his own has been neglected..........and he gets his food by hunting...............or eating out of trash cans..........he usually isn't wearing a collar so he might not be up on all his shots.........................its just better to shoot that one..................sad fact of the matter is that the owner probably already has a replacement dog..................that he will tire of and let go in another six months.