Beyond 100 yards

[The Sodbuster]

Like a lot of shooters, the public range where I do most of my shooting only goes as far as 100 yards.  And about all the deer I've shot have been within 100 yards.  Until going for prairie dogs last year, I'd never shot any further (my "Kentucky windage & elevation" on prairie dogs met with mixed results).

Earlier today I joined a coworker at a gun club he belongs to where you can shoot out to 500 yards.  I produced the following group sizes with handloads that consistently shoot under 1" from the bench at 100 yards:

Rem 700VSF in .308 Win:  200 yds, 3 shots - 3.32", 1.60"
                                       335 yds, 3 shots - 1.54", 2.01", 8.32"
                                       400 yds, 3 shots - 6.04"

Savage 12 in .22-250 Rem: 200 yds, 4 shots - 2.43", 1.68", 0.68"
                                        335 yds, 4 shots - 3.40", 4.21"
                                        400 yds, 4 shots - 6.40"

Not too bad considering how windy it was.  But as I figured would be the case, shooting under 1" at 100 yds doesn't necessarily translate into less than 4" at 400 yds.  Maybe 300-400 yards and beyond is what separates an accurate, factory rifle from a presumably very accurate custom rifle.  Could also be at 100 yards, issues such as a heavy trigger, poor bench form or other factors don't make that big a difference, but become magnified at longer yardages.

I now have even more respect for those guys on Best of the West who routinely make one-shot kills at 400-800 yards on their show.

[KN]

100yds is a good starting point but as you said it doesn't nessessarily tell you any thing out farther. I have been shooting dogs for several years and most of my 100yd loads have worked very well on out. But last year I developed a load for an A-R that was printing 1/2" consistently at 100yds. Took it out on the dog towns and I could not hit squat past 250 yds. This was with a 55gr blitz king, the same bullet I use in several other 223's with great success. Can't for the life of me figure out why it wont shoot long range in that gun.   KN

[Coyote Hunter]

... But as I figured would be the case, shooting under 1" at 100 yds doesn't necessarily translate into less than 4" at 400 yds.  ....

Under most conditions you are right – it doesn’t.  A big part of the problem is wind currents.  Take a 10mph wind and my .308 load that has put 6 bullets into an area 0.155” wide by 0.610” tall at 100 yards.  The load consists of a 168g AMAX at 2628fps.  At 100 yards the wind deflection will be 0.66”.  At 400 yards its 12.66”.

That, of course, assumes a steady state environment.  At my club the wind rarely stops and conditions are rarely steady throughout the 400 yard course. I assume your course is not much different in that the wind varies in both intensity and direction along the course.  Your groups were very good for a windy day.

[Gregory]

At my club, our range extends to 200 meters.  When I bought my Savage 7mm-08 I tested a variety of bullets, most of which I bought as "leftovers" from people on the net.  Many of my loads are sub MOA for 3 shots at 100 meters.

One particulat bullet, the Sierra RN 170 gr, only shot into 2.0" at 100 meters, certainly nothing to brag about,but it shot to the same point of aim as my 150 gr load so I though it would be a good "short range" bullet for bear if I ever go bear hunting and I loaded up a box.  One day I decided to test this load at 200 meters and it printed a 2.4" group at that range.  That was a pleasant surprise!  So you never know how those groups will do at extended range till you try them.

[KN]

Some bullets aren't stable yet at 100 and can produce better groups out farther.   KN

[Graybeard]

Now THAT'S a story I've seen repeated on the internet several times that no one is EVER gonna sell to me. Think on the impossibility of that premise.

You are in effect saying that a bullet that has gone wide of the aiming point by say an inch or so at 100 is gonna MAGICALLY move back and be closer to aiming point further out. Sorry ain't happening.

Now that's not to say that SOME of your groups at 200 might not be better than SOME of your groups at 100. BUT if you could set up Oehler sky screens to measure your groups at 100, 200 and 300 yards your groups at 200 and 300 would never in a million years be smaller with any given string than they were at 100. That defies the laws of physics as much as the claims of bigfoot being a shape shifting dimension hopping being does.

[Don Fischer]

Yea that is a worn out story. I've often wondered where that story started. I think it helps sell boat tail bullets. Maybe those are those retriever bullets that if they get off course, you blow your whistle and they stop and lood back for directions to get back on course.

Truth is sometimes we shoot better than others. And some of those sometimes are at longer ranges. Most rifles shoot better than most people can shoot.

[jgalar]

The effect of aerodynamic drag over time and distance can definately cause a slightly wobbly projectile to increase stabilization at a distance!

You won't get better groups at say 200 yds than at 100, but a gun that only shoots a 2" group at 100 can shoot better than expected at further distances.

You can visualize better when thinking about archery. A bow slightly out of tune will cause more oscillations in the shaft which will stabilize at a distance giving better groups than expected at a distance.

[mitchell]

The effect of aerodynamic drag over time and distance can definately cause a slightly wobbly projectile to increase stabilization at a distance!

You won't get better groups at say 200 yds than at 100, but a gun that only shoots a 2" group at 100 can shoot better than expected at further distances.

You can visualize better when thinking about archery. A bow slightly out of tune will cause more oscillations in the shaft which will stabilize at a distance giving better groups than expected at a distance.

+1, groups can get better as the bullet goes to sleep

[Graybeard]

Guys I don't know who's been feeding you this line of bull but once a bullet has veered off course it CANNOT come back on course except by outside intervention say from WIND. NOTHING else can make it do that.

This idea of bullets "going to sleep" and in the process moving back toward point of aim is mere hogwash.

Yes at times the bullet may do more than just spin on its axis. It can oscillate with the nose describing a circular motion but it is VERY TINY and has no effect on group size at ANY distance.

If a bullet moves one inch from it's planned course to the target it will NEVER EVER regain that distance and be closer to center.

I don't care if you can or have shot smaller groups at longer range than some you've shot at shorter ranges. I have too. BUT if you measure the group that any set of 3, 5, 10 or whatever number of bullets make at multiple distance the longer the distance the larger the group will be EVERY SINGLE TIME. The laws of physics dictate this and cannot be changed.

[Muddyboots]

First, GB dead on all ranges on accuracy of a bullet. No bullet can make a left turn while in flight unless directed upon by an outside influence. Second, Best of west kind of torques me a bit with the long range shooting they do without consideration of the audience they are playing to. First they use Berger target bullets for hunting and notice they shoot for high shoulder spine shot since the bullet is not designed for hunting applications. Yes, the bullet is accurate but no it is not designed for hunting which means it does not have have desired expansion shock capabilities. The ranges are also out of accepted bullet energy levels for the game they shoot. For example, if 1,000 ftlbs is accepted for deer size animals, the 600-yard + shots are below this energy level for what they shoot. Same for elk at 2,000 ft lbs.. Long range shooting on targets is fantastic but when you are taking the responsibility to kill an animal on camera for an audience that probably has limited understanding of ballistics there has to be some degree of responsibility. If you can shoot a hunting bullet with a caliber heavy enough to deliver energy levels required for the size of game at the range you are shooting, then go for it. Don't sell target shooting equipment and ballistics as an accepted form of hunting. That's my 0.02. anyway.
Muddy

[beemanbeme]

GB, you are 100% correct.  I think that was another urban myth dreamed up by folks that spend most of their shooting time in an armchair.

If your bullet takes a while to "settle down", you need to look to your twist or bullet length 'cause something ain't right.  Or the bullet is just poorly made.  Regardless of how much hype you've read about it.

[KN]

It's exactly like the archery analogy. Have you ever seen high speed photograph of an arrow in flight? An archer couldn't possibly hit an exact point at very close distances. The arrow/bullet is not veering off course, it is spinning with its nose and tail making circles ultill it stabilizes. I watched a show on archery once where a guy was shooting arrows through a wedding ring. Even he said it could not be done at short distance. Thats what made it so dificult. The photography showed the arrow wobbling around some thing terrible untill it stabilized. A bullet is no different.   KN

[killdeer]

If I found myself magically shooting better at 200yds than100yds consistently, I would take a hard look at possible scope parallax.

[KN]

I sent an e-mail to Carroll Pilant  who is one of the technical team at Sierra Bullets. I asked him to read this thread and supplied him with a link. I gave no other info or opinion but asked for his response to this debate. Here is what I have recieved so far.

 "Kevin, I am going to foreward this to Ted Almagren. He is one of the 2 fellows that write our computer program on exterior ballistics. We get calls just every day or so from someone who was shooting at 100 yards and then shot at longer ranges and shot the same size or smaller groups at the longer distances. Usually the longer the bullet, the longer it takes to stabalize, but every rifle is different also. I'll send this on to Ted.

Carroll"


I have yet to here from Ted but will post his reply if and when I get it.

KN

[Jimi]

What? You guys don't know how to put English on your bullets :wink:

[beemanbeme]

When you release an arrow, the tip of the arrow wants to remain at rest despite the string driving the fletched end forward.  I think its something Newton invented.  Thus the arrow flexes back and forth until the fletching isn't trying to outrun the tip.  
I don't think a bullet flexes in flight.  Actually, it starts out in a sleeve that would prevent it from flexing even if its tendency was to do so.
Ergo, the analogy of using an arrow to explain a bullet's flight is pretty sour.

[Greybeard]

Yup I agree but I understand the analogy intended.

Most ballisticians agree that bullets when initially fired are not fully stabilized as the leave the barrel. The amount of this instability varies with lots of different things playing into it. Unlike an arrow it's not massive and visible gyrations but a very very tiny oscillation whereby the nose yaws just the tiniest bit.

Even in a very worse case scenario you'd never measure it on a target as the nose doesn't deviate far enough to be outside the diameter of the bullet. Should it do that then most likely the bullet will end up sideways on the target. Yeah I've seen that. Had a new Taurus that tossed 1/3 of the bullets that way and another 1/3 of them partially that way at 25 yards.

In theory at least at some point those slightly oscillating bullets "go to sleep" or stabilize and stop the oscillating. I do accept this as pretty sound theory.

BUT no way Jose will that bullet veer off course by a measured amount in any vector and then after stabilizing move back on an opposite vector to make up for what it lost. Ain't happening in this galaxy.

[lilabner]

Guess I disagree with the idea that long range separates the good guns from the great guns. If both rifles consistently shoot identical 100 yard groups using the same cartridge, weight and barrel configuration with identical lock times and trigger pulls and the same scopes and firing ammo with bullets of the same ballistic coefficient and velocity, I can't see why one would show better than the other at 400 yards. Seems to me like the burden is on the shooter to dope wind and mirage and the human factor is what makes the difference.

[The Sodbuster]

Lilabner opined:

Guess I disagree with the idea that long range separates the good guns from the great guns. If both rifles consistently shoot identical 100 yard groups using the same cartridge, weight and barrel configuration with identical lock times and trigger pulls and the same scopes and firing ammo with bullets of the same ballistic coefficient and velocity, I can't see why one would show better than the other at 400 yards. Seems to me like the burden is on the shooter to dope wind and mirage and the human factor is what makes the difference.

I guess what I need is a custom made rifle in the same caliber as I was shooting at the range, preferably with the same action and scope.  Then, with the same ammo,  I can make a legitimate comparison.  Anyone care to contribute to a fund for my efforts?

[jro45]

My group was 10" at 200 yds and at 400 yds it was 4.5". These were Serria boat tails I was shooting. This is a fact.

[ms]

Kn you make me laugh! :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

[beemanbeme]

If I had a rifle that patterned (you can't call that a group) 10" at 200 yards, I doubt that I'd ever find out what it did at 400 'cause after a coursory check to make sure something mechanical wasn't wrong with it, it wouldn't be staying at my house!!!!
Was this 10"/4" thing consistant.  What you're saying is the bullets actually turned halfway to the 400 yard target.  I don't know, I just went out and checked.  That ain't no turnip truck in the driveway.   :-D
In the for what its worth dept: I've read that any lack of consistancy or deformity forward of the ogive, didn't effect the accuracy of the bullet.  And to pursue this a bit further, is it the bullet or the lack of exact trueness of the barrel that causes this ocillation?

[Graybeard]

My group was 10" at 200 yds and at 400 yds it was 4.5". These were Serria boat tails I was shooting. This is a fact

.

Ask me if I believe you fired a 10" group at 200 yards? Now ask me if I believe you fired a 4.5" group at 400 yards. I'll give you a perhaps to both.

But if you're trying to make me believe and if you believe that the bullets that made up that 10" group at 200 yards were down to 4.5" at 400 then I'm telling you that you should give up shooting and take up golf. Sure you can shoot groups at times at longer ranges that beat groups you've fired at shorter ranges. I'm sure we've all done it.

But if you tell me you fired ten groups doing your best shooting at 200 and then fired ten groups at 400 doing your best shooting and the group average at 400 was less than at 200 I'm gonna call you a name you wouldn't like cuz friend that's IMPOSSIBLE.

[The Sodbuster]

Doesn't seem like it'd be that difficult to put a target at 200 yards and line up another at 100 yards.  Might take a little trial and error to get them lined up so you're hitting paper on both targets, but then you could examine group size from the same bullets at 100 and 200 yards.  I wouldn't think going through paper at 100 would have much of an impact on trajectory at 200 yards; however, if group sizes at 200 were notably larger than usual, then I guess that's the case.

Anyone got a range or field they can shoot to 200 yards who wants to give it a try and report back?

[KN]

I hope I didn't come off as suggesting that this is the norm. I'm sure this scenario is quite rare.   KN