Author Topic: Should California be given back to Mexico?  (Read 3468 times)

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Offline ironfoot

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Should California be given back to Mexico?
« on: February 13, 2006, 05:30:49 PM »
From BrianMcCandliss:
"All evidence indicates conclusively that the Civil War was nothing but a trumped-up use of force against sovereign nations, by simply claiming that they weren't such...."

So, if the United States is not a "nation", and never was, it had no right to go to war with Mexico, or sign a treaty which ceded land from Mexico to the United States. So...California, your state, is really still part of Mexico.
Adios, amigo! (I meant "amigo" in a rhetorical sense. But we all know you claim to be really smart...so you probably knew that.) (What is your degree in again?)


( Just a bit of reality here. California was never part of Mexico, it was part of Spain and was left for Mexico to hold in trust in the 1830's until Spain  could return) (elconfederado)
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Offline BrianMcCandliss

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Re: Should California be given back to Mexico?
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2006, 05:52:28 PM »
Quote from: ironfoot
From BrianMcCandliss:
"All evidence indicates conclusively that the Civil War was nothing but a trumped-up use of force against sovereign nations, by simply claiming that they weren't such...."


So, if the United States is not a "nation", and never was, it had no right to go to war with Mexico, or sign a treaty which ceded land from Mexico to the United States. So...California, your state, is really still part of Mexico.


Read the Declaration of Independence: the states have the right to declare wars; likewise, they delegated this power to the United States via the Constitution, right in Section 8-- you might want to read that as well. Therefore the Mexican-American war was legit, since it was a proper exercise of delegated authority.

The Civil War, meanwhile, was not legitimate-- as stated above, the states merely delegated their sovereign powers to the United States proper-- they did not cede these powers to the United States. To "delegate" is to authorize a subordinate entity to perform certain tasks-- as I explained in my paper "Were the States Sovereign Nations?;" you might want to check that one out too.
Therefore, it's impossible for the Constitution to authorize the US government to go to war against a member-state: for this would involve a state delegating authority to go to war against itself! This would clearly be an oxymoron, since this would fall outside the limits of delegation.

As James Ostrowski writes at AN ANALYSIS OF PRESIDENT LINCOLN'S LEGAL ARGUMENTS AGAINST SECESSION:

Quote
The right to prevent secession is not "delegated" to the United States. In fact, the Constitutional Convention considered and rejected a provision that would have authorized the use of Union force against a recalcitrant state. On May 31, 1787, the Convention considered adding to the powers of Congress the right: "to call forth the force of the union against any member of the union, failing to fulfil its duty under the articles thereof."29 The clause was rejected after James Madison spoke against it:

"A Union of the States containing such an ingredient seemed to provide for its own destruction. The use of force against a State, would look more like a declaration of war, than an infliction of punishment, and would probably be considered by the party attacked as a dissolution of all previous compacts by which it might be bound."30


And again, the limits of delegation are entirely at the discretion of the state; anything less, would destroy sovereignty entirely. Even if the Constitution said "if the moon disappears, then the US can use force to halt secession," then the President could simply claim that the moon disappeared-- even during a full one-- and use that power to take over.
(That's how Hitler gained power: he got an "emergency powers" measure passed which would give him full power in an emergency-- and then declared one). Hardly surprising, actually-- he learned it all from old Abe himself.
The Founders weren't naive to this possibility; therefore Madison specifically retained sovereignty in the Federalist Papers, as a precondition of ratification.

Quote
Adios, amigo! (I meant "amigo" in a rhetorical sense. But we all know you claim to be really smart...

Those are YOUR words... I just claim to know a few things that most don't recognize-- or won't-- but which I consider to be priorities-- like state sovereignty, or the speed of light.

Quote
so you probably knew that.) (What is your degree in again?)


Which one?

Degrees, however, are issued by accredited universities-- FEDERALLY-accredited universities. Therefore, they are forced to kowtow to government-approved history, in order to gain their accreditation; they don't dare tell the truth: that the Civil War was unconstitutional, that the US created WWII-- and struck first before declaring war.

And that's exactly what Lincoln wanted-- totalitarian rule over individuals.

So it won't do to go quoting "accredited" authorities in supporting pro-Lincoln arguments-- that's like supporting Jim Henson by quoting Kermit the Frog.

However if you want some accreditation in related fields, consider that Walter Williams, James Ostrowski, Thomas DiLorenzo, Thomas E. Woods, Murray Rothbard, Kevin Gutzman, and many other brilliant anti-Lincoln authors are all practicing University professors-- including professors of history and law.

Seriously, what do you think the term "delegate" means?

Offline williamlayton

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Should California be given back to Mexico?
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2006, 01:33:01 PM »
The individual states gave up their right to form alliances and engage in treaties as individual states, which of course is what they did when they seceded.
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Offline BrianMcCandliss

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« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2006, 04:56:22 PM »
Delegation of powers, is not the same as "giving up" powers or rights.

And if you're going to wave around the term "shall" and "shall not" as some type of surrender of rights rather than simple delegation, then you might want to take a peep at the Articles of Confederation: most notably Article XIII:


"Article XIII. Every State shall abide by the determination of the United States in Congress assembled, on all questions which by this confederation are submitted to them. And the Articles of this Confederation shall be inviolably observed by every State, and the Union shall be perpetual; nor shall any alteration at any time hereafter be made in any of them; unless such alteration be agreed to in a Congress of the United States, and be afterwards confirmed by the legislatures of every State.


And Whereas it hath pleased the Great Governor of the World to incline the hearts of the legislatures we respectively represent in Congress, to approve of, and to authorize us to ratify the said Articles of Confederation and perpetual Union. Know Ye that we the undersigned delegates, by virtue of the power and authority to us given for that purpose, do by these presents, in the name and in behalf of our respective constituents, fully and entirely ratify and confirm each and every of the said Articles of Confederation and perpetual Union, and all and singular the matters and things therein contained: And we do further solemnly plight and engage the faith of our respective constituents, that they shall abide by the determinations of the United States in Congress assembled, on all questions, which by the said Confederation are submitted to them. And that the Articles thereof shall be inviolably observed by the States we respectively represent, and that the Union shall be perpetual."

Now in light of the fact that every state unilaterally SECEDED from this "Union" in 1787, explain how the Union formed under the Constitution was any different in forbidding secession?
If anything, the Constitution had LESS prohibition of secession; nowhere does it claim to be "perpetual," nor does it require unanimous consent for alteration.

Offline ironfoot

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« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2006, 06:11:12 PM »
"Read the Declaration of Independence: the states have the right to declare wars; likewise, they delegated this power to the United States via the Constitution, right in Section 8-- you might want to read that as well. Therefore the Mexican-American war was legit, since it was a proper exercise of delegated authority." Then the war against the Confederate States was "legit" for the same reason.
Act the way you would like to be, and soon you will be the way you act.

Offline BrianMcCandliss

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« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2006, 04:45:26 AM »
Quote from: ironfoot
"Read the Declaration of Independence: the states have the right to declare wars; likewise, they delegated this power to the United States via the Constitution, right in Section 8-- you might want to read that as well. Therefore the Mexican-American war was legit, since it was a proper exercise of delegated authority." Then the war against the Confederate States was "legit" for the same reason.



Nope, since it was termed a "rebellion," not an actual war; and that's really pretty obvious to forgive such an oversight.

If it had been claimed as an actual war over territory, not only would it not have been fought, but Lincoln would have been hanged the next day for treason-- and he knew it. So he called it a "rebellion--" and jailed (or SHOT) anyone who disagreed. ANYONE.

Sad that people would still ADMIRE this thug.

Offline Daks

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Should California be given back to Mexico?
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2006, 07:33:08 AM »
Secession was not legal, as ruled on by the Supreme Court in the case of Texas v. White (74 U.S. 700).  This decision in 1869 made the statement that in the opinion of those whose opinion regarding the Constitution carries the force of law:
 
   "The Constitution, in all its provisions, looks to an indestructible
Union, composed of indestructible States. ... Considered, therefore, as
transactions under the Constitution, the Ordinance of Secession, adopted
by the convention and ratified by a majority of the citizens of Texas, and
all the Acts of her Legislature intended to give effect to that ordinance,
were absolutely null. They were utterly without operation in law. ... Our
conclusion, therefore, is, that Texas continued to be a State, and a State
of the Union, notwithstanding the transactions to which we have referred."


http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/cases/historic.htm

Offline BrianMcCandliss

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« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2006, 04:43:55 PM »
Quote from: Daks
Secession was not legal, as ruled on by the Supreme Court in the case of Texas v. White (74 U.S. 700).  This decision in 1869 made the statement that in the opinion of those whose opinion regarding the Constitution carries the force of law:
 
   "The Constitution, in all its provisions, looks to an indestructible
Union, composed of indestructible States. ... Considered, therefore, as
transactions under the Constitution, the Ordinance of Secession, adopted
by the convention and ratified by a majority of the citizens of Texas, and
all the Acts of her Legislature intended to give effect to that ordinance,
were absolutely null. They were utterly without operation in law. ... Our
conclusion, therefore, is, that Texas continued to be a State, and a State
of the Union, notwithstanding the transactions to which we have referred."


http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/cases/historic.htm


Yes, I'm quite familiar with Salmon P. Chase's little boo-boo, since this was all 100% false. I won't even get into the politics of that decision, since Chase was a very crooked man.

More importantly, however, the Supreme Court has no jurisdiction over matters of international policy-- particularly over separate sovereign nations. The Supreme Court can only rule on matters of law-- not policy-- and DEFINITELY not foreign policy, especially regarding the recognition of sovereign international boundaries! They were a COURT, not the bloody Sanhedrin!

Hence, the argument of using a court decision-- particularly a POST-WAR court decision, which isn't exactly objective-- is so fallacious as to defy dignifying such with a response. Lincoln had already attempted to have the former Chief Justice Taney arrested for refusing to uphold his suspension of habeaus corups, and by 1869 the Reconstruction-era empire had the Supreme Court well-stacked with token puppets and lackeys.
I find it hard to believe that this is even offered as a serious argument.

Offline ironfoot

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« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2006, 07:29:05 AM »
Brian: (In response to Supreme Court precedent, which has never been overturned.): "I find it hard to believe that this is even offered as a serious argument."

Me: Did you "study law in a manure pile"?
(Your words from a previous post.)
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Offline BrianMcCandliss

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« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2006, 11:41:29 AM »
All of my legal arguments have been valid, factually accurate and  logically conclusive.

Meanwhile the notion that the Supreme Court can rule a sovereign nation-state to be subordinate district, is more akin to fertilizer.

Offline El Confederado

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« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2006, 09:25:06 AM »
Brian, Ironfoot and all others,

Sorry to inform y'all, but California and the American Southwest never legaly belonged to Mexico, Spain never gave up it's claim to those lands and all Spanish holding are between " God, His Royal Majasty and the land holder" or in the sake of lands like the southwest, " The King of Spain and God". So I dont know what to tell both of you.
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Offline BrianMcCandliss

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« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2006, 06:15:49 AM »
Quote from: El Confederado
Brian, Ironfoot and all others,

Sorry to inform y'all, but California and the American Southwest never legaly belonged to Mexico, Spain never gave up it's claim to those lands and all Spanish holding are between " God, His Royal Majasty and the land holder" or in the sake of lands like the southwest, " The King of Spain and God". So I dont know what to tell both of you.


That just makes my claim stronger, since these would have been disputed territories under the Manifest Destiny, and not recognized internationally as belonging to any given nation prior to conquest.

This is NOT the case with the states, which continue to operate under the supposed original intent the laws and Constitution.

Offline Daks

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« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2006, 08:41:19 AM »
Since an issue can only be decided in retrospect, I don't see how the date of the  decision in Texas vs. White has anything to do with the topic. The Supreme Court could only rule on the issue of legality of secession after secession had occurred. Perhaps you could explain why a decision about an action should come before an action has occurred in order for that decision to be considered relevant? I don't think the Court rules on hypothetical situations, so any decision regarding secession must naturally come sometime after secession has occurred.

The Court certainly disagrees with you regarding its jurisdiction. It believes it can interpret the Constitution and can decide the constitutionality of an any action by an individual state, as it has done here in Texas vs. White. Your disagreement does not carry the authoritative power of precedent for law that theirs does, so I guess that relying on the Supreme Court to settle the issue, as it has done here, is probably more fruitful than relying on private opinion such as your own.

That is by no means a denigration of your opinion. It is merely a recognition that until the relevant portions of Texas vs. White are overturned, the issue of the legality of secession has already been decided.

Offline BrianMcCandliss

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« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2006, 01:33:19 PM »
Quote from: Daks
Since an issue can only be decided in retrospect, I don't see how the date of the  decision in Texas vs. White has anything to do with the topic. The Supreme Court could only rule on the issue of legality of secession after secession had occurred. Perhaps you could explain why a decision about an action should come before an action has occurred in order for that decision to be considered relevant? I don't think the Court rules on hypothetical situations, so any decision regarding secession must naturally come sometime after secession has occurred.

The Court certainly disagrees with you regarding its jurisdiction. It believes it can interpret the Constitution and can decide the constitutionality of an any action by an individual state, as it has done here in Texas vs. White. Your disagreement does not carry the authoritative power of precedent for law that theirs does, so I guess that relying on the Supreme Court to settle the issue, as it has done here, is probably more fruitful than relying on private opinion such as your own.

That is by no means a denigration of your opinion. It is merely a recognition that until the relevant portions of Texas vs. White are overturned, the issue of the legality of secession has already been decided.


I'd answer, but it appears you're so clueless on the issue that I don't quite know where to begin.
I suggest you go study up on the issue, and try again; it's not my job to educate you as to the basic facts-- at which your statements are certainly at odds regaring both law and history.

Do us both a favor, and try again someday-- but not before you've studied the issue at length a bit further.

Offline Daks

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« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2006, 03:23:51 PM »
I think I understand, now.

When presented with a definitive, authoritative statement by the highest court in the land that secession was illegal, you resort to calling me ignorant and refusing to answer.

I think I've got your number now. I'm sorry I wasted my time on you.

Offline BrianMcCandliss

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« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2006, 04:04:41 PM »
Actually you waste MY time; yours is redundant, since time spent in ignorance is always wasted.

Go and look up the law on your own regarding Supreme Court jurisdiction and powers-- might I suggest you start with US Constitution Article III, section 1. and work from there.

However coming here and arguing case-law against an international policy-matter, is like bringing beer to a Bar-mitzvah-- it ain't kosher!

Likewise, ignoring the BIAS of the post-Civil War court-- by one of its main opportunist and officials, for that matter-- is like the rabbi expecting fairness from Judge Goebells.

Offline Daks

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« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2006, 04:19:31 PM »
Until the decision is overturned, it remains the law of the land.

You might not like it, you might even believe that the Court had no business involving itself. People said much the same thing about Marbury vs. Madison when that decision came down. The court had overstepped its boundaries and taken onto itself a power it was not given by the Constitution. Yet that decision stood and the Supreme Court became the sole arbiter of the law, even to the point of overturning legislative acts.

The same is true here. Until something comes along that overturns this decision or limits the Court's scope in some way, the issue of the legality of secession has been settled definitively and authoritatively.

All the argumentation in the world can't change that. Only another court case can. Until that happens, secession was illegal.

Offline BrianMcCandliss

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« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2006, 08:46:32 AM »
Quote from: Daks
Until the decision is overturned, it remains the law of the land.

You might not like it, you might even believe that the Court had no business involving itself. People said much the same thing about Marbury vs. Madison when that decision came down. The court had overstepped its boundaries and taken onto itself a power it was not given by the Constitution. Yet that decision stood and the Supreme Court became the sole arbiter of the law, even to the point of overturning legislative acts.

The same is true here. Until something comes along that overturns this decision or limits the Court's scope in some way, the issue of the legality of secession has been settled definitively and authoritatively.

All the argumentation in the world can't change that. Only another court case can. Until that happens, secession was illegal.


Once again, your notion that the court is the judge of its own powers, displays a complete disconnection with any cognizance regarding the law-- or reality.

To wit: US Constitution, Article III:

Quote
Section 1. The judicial power of the United States, shall be vested in one Supreme Court, and in such inferior courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish. The judges, both of the supreme and inferior courts, shall hold their offices during good behaviour, and shall, at stated times, receive for their services, a compensation, which shall not be diminished during their continuance in office.

Section 2. The judicial power shall extend to all cases, in law and equity, arising under this Constitution, the laws of the United States, and treaties made, or which shall be made, under their authority;--to all cases affecting ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls;--to all cases of admiralty and maritime jurisdiction;--to controversies to which the United States shall be a party;--to controversies between two or more states;--between a state and citizens of another state;--between citizens of different states;--between citizens of the same state claiming lands under grants of different states, and between a state, or the citizens thereof, and foreign states, citizens or subjects.


In all cases affecting ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls, and those in which a state shall be party, the Supreme Court shall have original jurisdiction. In all the other cases before mentioned, the Supreme Court shall have appellate jurisdiction, both as to law and fact, with such exceptions, and under such regulations as the Congress shall make.


The matter of secession, is not a "case in law or equity," but rather a policy-matter regarding the political status of states, and to thus under the jurisdiction of Congress-- and possibly the executive branch-- under Article I.

Texas v. White, was not the case arising under the Constitution against the states regarding the legality of their secession under it per se directly, but merely the ruling in a case arsising under such matters; hence the case itself had no effect on secession-rights of the states themselves, but merely related law.  

As such, court-decisions simply affected related cases, and did not affect the principle legal issue of secession itself in any arbitrary manner.

To imagine such, would be to claim that either

1) the states intentionally surrendered their absolute sovereignty not only to the federal government, but to the arbitrary whims of seven un-elected men, and that

2)the Supreme Court is the sole and final arbiter or its own authroity, the original intent of the states or the law notwitstanding.

Both claims are entirely ludicrous, and typify your gross casuistry regarding the notion regarding the structure of government under the Constitution, fancying the Supreme Court to be some type of absolute supreme ruling-body; in reality, the entire legal issue of secession regards the sovereignty of the individual states vs. that of the federal union congress, and is solely dependent on objective reality regarding the original intent regarding such.

Your obvious attempt to overturn appeal to this objective reality, via these misbegotten notions regarding the nature and power of the Supreme Court-- ascribing such supreme and final authority to them on this matter-- are both inane and delusional, obviously masking outright denial via a tangled web of falsehoods and obvious deception.

This seems to illustrate an interesting pattern of denial, by which this outright lie which supports current national policy among the states, has been perpetuated over the years via subjective reasoning which actually rejects objective reality which runs counter to its implanted belief-system-- that is, when not ignoring such via rational ignorance.
This is how ruling-minorities have controlled vast majorities for millenia-- and this is just a common living example in action.

Offline Daks

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« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2006, 12:10:59 PM »
You apparently need a refresher on Marbury vs. Madison, where the Court defined its own jurisdiction and took a power not explicitly granted to it by the Constitution.

The decision in Marbury vs. Madison in part said this:

"If an act of the legislature, repugnant to the constitution, is void, does it, notwithstanding its invalidity, bind the courts, and oblige them to give it effect? Or, in other words, though it be not law, does it constitute a rule as operative as if it was a law? This would be to overthrow in fact what was established in theory; and would seem, at first view, an absurdity too gross to be insisted on. It shall, however, receive a more attentive consideration.

It is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is. Those who apply the rule to particular cases, must of necessity expound and interpret that rule. If two laws conflict with each other, the courts must decide on the operation of each.

So if a law be in opposition to the constitution; if both the law and the constitution apply to a particular case, so that the court must either decide that case conformably to the law, disregarding the constitution; or conformably to the constitution, disregarding the law; the court must determine which of  these conflicting rules governs the case. This is of the very essence of judicial duty.

If then the courts are to regard the constitution; and the constitution is superior to any ordinary act of the legislature; the constitution, and not such ordinary act, must govern the case to which they both apply.

Those then who controvert the principle that the constitution is to be considered, in court, as a paramount law, are reduced to the necessity of maintaining that courts must close their eyes on the constitution, and see only the law.

This doctrine would subvert the very foundation of all written constitutions. It would declare that an act, which, according to the principles and theory of our government, is entirely void; is yet, in practice, completely obligatory. It would declare, that if the legislature shall do what is expressly forbidden, such act, notwithstanding the express prohibition, is in reality effectual. It would be giving to the legislature a practical and real omnipotence, with the same breath which professes to restrict their powers within narrow limits. It is prescribing limits, and declaring that those limits may be passed at pleasure.

That it thus reduces to nothing what we have deemed the greatest improvement on political institutions -- a written constitution -- would of itself be sufficient, in America, where written constitutions have been viewed with so much reverence, for rejecting the construction. But the peculiar expressions of the constitution of the United States furnish additional arguments in favor of its rejection.

The judicial power of the United States is extended to all cases arising under the constitution. Could it be the intention of those who gave this power, to say that, in using it, the constitution should not be looked into? That a case arising under the constitution should be decided without examining the instrument under which it arises?  This is too extravagant to be maintained.

In some cases then, the constitution must be looked into by the judges. And if they can open it at all, what part of it are they forbidden to read, or to obey? There are many other parts of the constitution which serve to illustrate this subject. It is declared that "no tax or duty shall be laid on articles exported from any state." Suppose a duty on the export of cotton, of tobacco, or of flour; and a suit instituted to recover it. Ought judgment to be rendered in such a case? ought the judges to close their eyes on the constitution, and only see the law. The constitution declares that "no bill of attainder or ex post facto law shall be passed."
If, however, such a bill should be passed and a person should be prosecuted under it; must the court condemn to death those victims whom the constitution endeavors to preserve?

Why otherwise does it direct the judges to take an oath to support it? This oath certainly applies, in an especial manner, to their conduct in their official character. How immoral to impose it on them, if they were to be used as the instruments, and the knowing instruments, for violating what they swear to support!

The oath of office, too, imposed by the legislature, is completely demonstrative of the legislative opinion on the subject. It is in these words, "I do solemnly swear that I will administer justice without respect to persons, and do equal right to the poor and to the rich; and that I will faithfully and impartially discharge all the duties incumbent on me as according to the best of my abilities and understanding, agreeably to the constitution, and laws of the United States."

Why does a judge swear to discharge his duties agreeably to the constitution of the United States, if that constitution forms no rule for his government? if it is closed upon him, and cannot be inspected by him?

If such be the real state of things, this is worse than solemn mockery. To prescribe, or to take this oath, becomes equally a crime.

Thus, the particular phraseology of the constitution of the United States confirms and strengthens the principle, supposed to be essential to all written constitutions, that a law repugnant to the constitution is void; and that courts, as well as other departments, are bound by that instrument."

By this decision, the Court established for itself a jurisdiction that the Constitution did not explicitly give it. Nowhere does the Constitution give the Court the specific right to declare acts of Congress unconstitutional. This decision had the effect of the Court defining its own jurisdiction.

Moreover, in this decision, the Court made itself the sole arbiter of the Constitution and the final authority on what the Constitution means. This pretty much defeats your proposition that the Court cannot define for itself its role under the Constitution. The case of Marbury vs. Madison proves your argument fallacious.

Furthermore, you haven't demonstrated that in Texas vs. White, there was any new definition of a role for the Court by its decision. All you have done is asserted your proposition to be true but that is hardly authoritative. You have also not stated why this decision does not have the force of law. Certainly the disputants in the case as well as everyone else took it as law, so it sure LOOKS like law to me.

So once again, your argument fails.

Your main assertion is that secession is a policy matter. To a certain extent, that is true. However, the Court is the sole arbiter of the Constitution as Marbury vs. Madison shows. The Court stated that the Constitution does not empower an individual state to secede, that this power has been taken away from states. This makes the issue of secession also a legal one in addition to the policy question you are focusing on.

Since the decision of the Court in Texas vs. White was predicated on the powers of the state as being bound by the Constitution of the United States, the Court was well within its purview to make the determination it came to. The Court certainly has the power to determine if actions by states are constitutional and has had this power since Marbury vs. Madison. Therefore, the Court was charting no new role for itself in Texas vs. White.

Which means only that  secession was illegal despite the sputterings of neo Confederates.

Offline Daks

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« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2006, 01:27:08 PM »
Sorry, took a break to eat supper.

The case in Texas vs. White, then, is not in any way outside the role of the Court to decide cases between states and citizens. In reaching this decision, it had to decide the legal status of Texas during the period in question since that had a direct bearing on the outcome. If Texas was not a state of the Union during the period of the War, then the case would be decided much differently that if it continued to be a state of the Union during that time period.

Consequently, the issue of legality of secession was central to the question before the Court. Contrary to your assertion that the issue of legality of secession was incidental, that issue served as the underpinning for the final disposition of the case. Had Texas been determined to be outside the Union during the war, the case would have been decided opposite to how it was finally ajudicated.

So exactly how you arrive at the conclusion that this case had really nothing to do with the legality of secession is a bit mysterious. The question of legality of secession had to be decided before anything else here.

Besides relying on ad hominem attacks (such as calling me delusional and my postings inane) which you hypocritically denounce when you are the subject but seem to enjoy engaging in when you are the source, do you have any real argument here? If so, I have yet to see one. All I've heard so far is that you disagree with the decision but that has nothing to do with the decision carrying the force of law.

Since it does carry the force of law, your assertion that secession was legal is denied by the as-yet standing decision of the very body which is the sole arbiter of Constitutional issues. Until they decide otherwise, Texas did not have the right to secede and hence, secession is illegal in this nation.

Offline BrianMcCandliss

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« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2006, 02:30:03 PM »
I said you were mixed up-- and boy, did you show me!
PROVED it in fact!

Thanks for showing everyone here that, you're so simply mixed up on this, that I don't even have to respond; your sophomoric and baseless reasoning, exposed the flaws in your claims better than I ever could.

Finally, your contention that the Supreme Court is final authority on everything, is such an absurd argument, that it doesn't even require a counter-argument... assuming it was even worth my time to do so against such nonsensical reasoning.

As for "ad hominem" statements, there are cases  in which it's a matter of simple observation, to term such thinking to be a matter of extreme ignorance and irrationality; after reading the above derivation of your original fallacy, I can definitely say, without a doubt, that this is certainly one of them.

Seriously, are you even in high school?

Offline Daks

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« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2006, 05:25:39 AM »
Once again, you resort to attacking me instead of addressing the argument.

I didn't say that the Supreme Court was the final authority on everything, just the interpretation of the Constitution. For a bit more reading on this, you might want to check out James Madison University site - specifically the James Madison Center. They had this to say about the case of Marbury vs. Madison:

"The critical importance of Marbury is the assumption of several powers by the Supreme Court. One was the authority to declare acts of Congress, and by implication acts of the president, unconstitutional if they exceeded the powers granted by the Constitution. But even more important, the Court became the arbiter of the Constitution, the final authority on what the document meant. As such, the Supreme Court became in fact as well as in theory an equal partner in government, and it has played that role ever since."

http://www.jmu.edu/madison/center/main_pages/madison_archives/era/judicial/bkgrnd.htm

I've caught you with your pants down, Brian. You obviously haven't read enough constitutional law to have any idea what you are talking about if you don't know the importance of something as basic as the case of Marbury vs. Madison. You just gave up any semblance of credibility on this forum regarding constitutional issues.

Next time before opining about the Constitution, maybe you should take it upon yourself to read a bit more? That might save us all from having to educate you on basic constitutional law.

Just a suggestion.

BTW, claiming another's argument is so flawed you don't have to respond is oftentimes a cover for having been caught out so wrong on an issue that one is looking for an exit. Good luck with that.

Offline BrianMcCandliss

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« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2006, 04:09:41 PM »
Quote from: Daks
Once again, you resort to attacking me instead of addressing the argument.


No, I was stating that you don't have the slightest clue that you're talking about-- that's not an attack, just an observation.

If someone chronically abuses alcohol, and I call them an alcoholic, that's not a judgment-- just a fact.

It's the way you come IN here and make preposterous claims backed by such outrageous flights of fancy regarding the law, that I attack.

Quote
I didn't say that the Supreme Court was the final authority on everything, just the interpretation of the Constitution.


Same difference-- and wrong either way. If they can name themselves the final word on the Constitution both in and out of the courtroom, they become the final word on anything.

Sorry, but your arguments are so full of hot air on this issue, that there's no need to do more than prick the surface of your arguments in order to deflate them.

Offline Daks

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« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2006, 11:51:52 PM »
Like I said, you obviously have zero understanding about constitutional law and that last post of yours, contradicting what authoritative sources have said is the significance of Marbury vs. Madison, proves it. All you've done is read the Constitution, which gave you half of what you need on the subject.

I've supported my position regarding Marbury vs. Madison with documentation from authoritative sites. All you've done is give us your opinion. Go find a site that says that Marbury vs. Madison WASN'T a case of the Supreme Court defining its own jurisdiction in exactly the way I've said and other authoritative sources I've provided say.

Then you'll have something to base your opinion on other than your own musings.

Until then, you are just another Internet blowhard that is easily put back into his box when someone with even a little bit of real knowledge shows up to dispute you. You've relied on taunts, derision, sarcasm, misrepresenting what I'm saying - anything to avoid talking about the subject. That's the sign of someone who can't back up what he is saying with anything else. All you've got is personal opinion that you cannot back up by finding even ONE citation in all the seven gazillion Internet pages out there that agrees with you regarding Marbury vs. Madison.

That more than anything should tell the people that come to this forum what a fraud your supposed knowledge of the Constitution is.

Done here.

Offline BrianMcCandliss

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« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2006, 08:05:30 PM »
All the more reason to stick a fork in you; you must think that weathermen control the weather as well, if you think that the courts can declare secession unconstitutional in a binding manner against the states.

That's got to be the WEAKEST, most misguided anti-secession argument ever fathomed on this board-- or anywhere else.

Offline Bush Master

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« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2006, 11:34:48 AM »
Brian I think what is happening here to ironfoot, williamlayton and daks is something called cognitive dissonance. . .

Offline El Confederado

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« Reply #26 on: March 09, 2006, 11:58:47 AM »
I think Daks and Ironfoot are the same person or atleast are working together, oh well, they make it fun.
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Offline BrianMcCandliss

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« Reply #27 on: March 09, 2006, 04:22:28 PM »
I was beginning to get the same idea, but that "Supreme Court" argument was lame even for Ironfoot.

Offline El Confederado

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« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2006, 11:40:38 AM »
What I realy love is all the folks that quote our Constitution and then tell you " this is what they ment". I always figured, we still speak English, they wrote it in English and it seems real plain to read, so therefore, what the wrote is what they ment, period.Hmmmm, why is it  that the 10th amendment and  the 2nd amendment so hard to understand for some folks?Oh well this is why we are still fighting over the illegal war of northern aggression. :twisted:
Lt. J.M. Rodriguez II
Captain- K Company-- 37th Texas Cavalry C.S.A.
 Lt---2nd  Louisiana  Zouave Cavalry
( Coppens Zouaves Trans-Mississippi)
Lt.---1st Battalion of Louisiana Zouaves
WoNA historian
Un-Reconstructed Confederate

Offline BrianMcCandliss

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« Reply #29 on: March 17, 2006, 03:51:40 AM »
Quote from: El Confederado
What I realy love is all the folks that quote our Constitution and then tell you " this is what they ment". I always figured, we still speak English, they wrote it in English and it seems real plain to read, so therefore, what the wrote is what they ment, period.Hmmmm, why is it  that the 10th amendment and  the 2nd amendment so hard to understand for some folks?Oh well this is why we are still fighting over the illegal war of northern aggression. :twisted:


Well to be fair, all laws must be interpreted in the context of their originally intended meaning--- and this can be ambiguous at times.

For example, the Constitution doesn't say that states can secede, and it doeesn't say that they can't; however it does say what tthey "shall" and "shall not" do, so that could be taken by some to mean that they only have limited powers.

I wrote my article "Were the States Sovereign Nations?" in order to address these ambiguities-- such as the 9th amendment retaining all prior retained rights of the states-- i.e. sovereignty, freedom and independence-- and the 10th amendment likewise stating that all of these state-powers were merely delegated to the federal government-- not ceded, granted, given, transferred or otherwise surrendered, as many have mistakenly paraphrased this.

For this reason, I likewise explained the term "delegated," since this was a key phrase not only in the Constitution, but also the Articles of Confederation, where the term "delegated" was used in the context of every state retaining is sovereignty, freedom and independence.

Likewise, there is the intepretation of meaning; in his First Inaugural Address, Lincoln cites the term "perfect" in the Preamble's "to form a more perfect union," claiming it to mean "more permanent and unbreakable" rather than "better;"  here he twists this as an improvement on the "perpetual union" element of the Articles of Confederation, and claiming that "it follows from these views that no state can lawfully get out of the Union by its own mere motion--"  while conveniently skipping over the fact that this "perpetual Union" perished via unilateral secession in 1787-9-- a fact supported by Article VII's statement that "The Ratification of the Conventions of nine States, shall be sufficient for the Establishment of this Constitution between the States so ratifying the Same."

Somehow, Lincoln expects us to believe that a perpetual union can be "matured" by nine states adopting the Constitution between only those nine, while the prior Union remained in effect between all of the 13 states-- an ignorance of logic, as well as basic history that the states seceded from the Confederation in order to ratify the Constitution, thus dissolving that prior union entirely.

Likewise, there is "session law" at work in interpreting the Constitution, i.e. the original intentions of the Constitutional Convention--or example  the consideration -- and rejection-- of a provision for allowing the federal use of military force against a state to compel compliance... as well as Madison's vehement condemnation of such as an "act of war" against the state in question.

Thus,  contextual background writings and history- as well as  knowledge of law and legal procedure-- are essential to properly interpreting the Constitution in the proper context of its original intent.