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Offline catboat

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paper info
« on: February 11, 2006, 10:00:03 AM »
I'm new to the board, but have been in the paper industry for over 20 years.  Thought you may be interested in some paper tidbits as you select paper for PP bullets.

The reason some paper doesn't wrap well/or get wet well is due to the fact they are "sized."  Sizing is an additive added to either the wet end or the dry end (size press) of a paper machine.  Sizing agents are designed to provide water hold out of aqueous inks-which produces a sharp printed image or sharp lettering.  Sizing agents can be (for alkaline paper): ASA, AKD in the wet end, or various styrene acrylics in the size press.  It doesn't make paper "water proof" just "resistant to water."  They is a test called the "HST" or "Hercules size test" which (simplified) is a special ink added to one side of the paper. A sensor is on the other side of the sheet, and when the ink shows up on the sensor side, the test is done.  The degree of sizing is recorded in seconds.  So a heavily sized sheet will have a longer time than a low sized (slack sized) sheet.  You can do a quick test by licking the paper and seeing if the water bleeds through the paper at a certain time (ie 5 seconds, 10, 20 100, 500 seconds etc).

  Newsprint is not sized.  You lick it, and water bleeds through immediately. by contrast, bond type of paper has medium to high sizing (pending the grade).  The lower the basis weight of the paper, the more important sizing is.  You have a thinner sheet, which has to hold out water.  You don't have the mechanical barrier of thick fiber. For "onionskin"  paper, sizing is pretty high.

So you have  a problem.  Low basis weight (bw) to wrap bullets, but high sizing for poor "wetting" ( the opposite of sizing).  It will wet, it just needs more time.  

Another issue to be concerned about, but you never read about it is the issue of abrasiveness of paper.  Paper has various levels of inorganic filler.  It is added to provide opacity and sometimes brightness qualities to paper.  Paper is made by two processes, acid or alkaline papermaking.  Most paper is made by alkaline systems.  It has more "permanence" meaning it will last longer.  Old books in libraries have pages that are brittle and crack.  This is acid made paper. (low permanence).  Anyway, the filler used in acid paper is typically clay.  The filler used in alkaline paper is typically calcium carbonate (CaCO3).  It's also called "pcc" (precipitated calcium carbonate). Ok, there is also "Gcc" for "ground CC" but they are all inorganic fillers.  Lighter basis weight paper needs opacity, and ofter titanium dioxide ("tiO2") is used to provide extra opacity (good paint has higher levels of tiO2 for it's "hiding" effect for improved opacity.).  

Filler levels ("ash content") various from low to high, but can be easily 20-25%+ of the total weight of paper.  PCC is cheaper than fiber, so a papermaker wants to add as much pcc as possible.  It also weakens the sheet, so then you have to make other changes in the fiber furnish permit the machine to run at high speeds ( ie adding starch, or increased kraft).

Ash is abrasive.  You want a sheet that has low ash so your bores don't wear out.  How long with barrels last? Don't know for sure, as most people don't shoot that much, but it is a factor.  Paper machines have equipment wear out due to the pcc abrasiveness.  Rifle barrels aren't that different.

So what does all this "papermaking 101" lesson mean?  You want a thin sheet with low ash, and low sizing.  This my friends, is NOT writing paper.  This screams to me as "LENS PAPER."   Find some good lens paper, and youo will have some slick paper to wrap those chunks of lead.  lens paper doesn't have filler, as they realize that it will be abrasive to lens coatings and lenses.  It's strong, and its lightweight (thin).

Hope this helps.

Offline DoggerelPundit

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paper info
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2006, 06:02:13 AM »
catboat,

Ray Newman, a regular poster at the Shiloh Rifle Forum led me here. There are many there, including myself, who would probably like to ask you some questions. Can you re-post your "papermaking 101" lesson at:

http://shilohrifle.com/forums/

...maybe under Blackpowder Shooting?

Thanks,

Stephen

Offline catboat

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Re: paper info
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2006, 07:38:49 PM »
Feel free to cut and paste my comments the other board.

Offline Kragman71

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Re: paper info
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2006, 11:03:28 AM »
I'm new to the board, but have been in the paper industry for over 20 years.  Thought you may be interested in some paper tidbits as you select paper for PP bullets.

The reason some paper doesn't wrap well/or get wet well is due to the fact they are "sized."  Sizing is an additive added to either the wet end or the dry end (size press) of a paper machine.  Sizing agents are designed to provide water hold out of aqueous inks-which produces a sharp printed image or sharp lettering.  Sizing agents can be (for alkaline paper): ASA, AKD in the wet end, or various styrene acrylics in the size press.  It doesn't make paper "water proof" just "resistant to water."  They is a test called the "HST" or "Hercules size test" which (simplified) is a special ink added to one side of the paper. A sensor is on the other side of the sheet, and when the ink shows up on the sensor side, the test is done.  The degree of sizing is recorded in seconds.  So a heavily sized sheet will have a longer time than a low sized (slack sized) sheet.  You can do a quick test by licking the paper and seeing if the water bleeds through the paper at a certain time (ie 5 seconds, 10, 20 100, 500 seconds etc).

  Newsprint is not sized.  You lick it, and water bleeds through immediately. by contrast, bond type of paper has medium to high sizing (pending the grade).  The lower the basis weight of the paper, the more important sizing is.  You have a thinner sheet, which has to hold out water.  You don't have the mechanical barrier of thick fiber. For "onionskin"  paper, sizing is pretty high.

So you have  a problem.  Low basis weight (bw) to wrap bullets, but high sizing for poor "wetting" ( the opposite of sizing).  It will wet, it just needs more time.  

Another issue to be concerned about, but you never read about it is the issue of abrasiveness of paper.  Paper has various levels of inorganic filler.  It is added to provide opacity and sometimes brightness qualities to paper.  Paper is made by two processes, acid or alkaline papermaking.  Most paper is made by alkaline systems.  It has more "permanence" meaning it will last longer.  Old books in libraries have pages that are brittle and crack.  This is acid made paper. (low permanence).  Anyway, the filler used in acid paper is typically clay.  The filler used in alkaline paper is typically calcium carbonate (CaCO3).  It's also called "pcc" (precipitated calcium carbonate). Ok, there is also "Gcc" for "ground CC" but they are all inorganic fillers.  Lighter basis weight paper needs opacity, and ofter titanium dioxide ("tiO2") is used to provide extra opacity (good paint has higher levels of tiO2 for it's "hiding" effect for improved opacity.).  

Filler levels ("ash content") various from low to high, but can be easily 20-25%+ of the total weight of paper.  PCC is cheaper than fiber, so a papermaker wants to add as much pcc as possible.  It also weakens the sheet, so then you have to make other changes in the fiber furnish permit the machine to run at high speeds ( ie adding starch, or increased kraft).

Ash is abrasive.  You want a sheet that has low ash so your bores don't wear out.  How long with barrels last? Don't know for sure, as most people don't shoot that much, but it is a factor.  Paper machines have equipment wear out due to the pcc abrasiveness.  Rifle barrels aren't that different.

So what does all this "papermaking 101" lesson mean?  You want a thin sheet with low ash, and low sizing.  This my friends, is NOT writing paper.  This screams to me as "LENS PAPER."   Find some good lens paper, and youo will have some slick paper to wrap those chunks of lead.  lens paper doesn't have filler, as they realize that it will be abrasive to lens coatings and lenses.  It's strong, and its lightweight (thin).

Hope this helps.

Catboat
I use onionskin or airmail paper primarily;sometimes templete paper(for making clothes).
How do these papers compare to "ideal" paper patching paper?
Frank
Frank

Offline John Boy

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Re: paper info
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2007, 01:08:36 PM »
Quote
I use onionskin ... How do these papers compare to "ideal" paper patching paper?
Frank - FYI:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onion_skin_paper

http://www.thepapermillstore.com/pages.php?pageid=383

http://www.thepapermillstore.com/product.php?productid=9304 ...
Quantity:  500 per Ream
Price:   $18.97

Regards
John Boy

Offline 303Guy

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Re: paper info
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2007, 11:43:56 AM »
catboat 

 How abrasive is paper hand towel?
 
I am new to paper patching.  I have read about cotton paper - said to be less abrasive and mouldable.  I use soft, absorbent  paper hand towel to make a paper cup or sabot for seating jacketed bullets in un-resized rifle cases.  I don't feel bad about it for my rust damaged hornet barrel but do not want to wear out my mint condition 303Brit barrel. 

(I find no paper residue in my firing tube from the hornet).

303Guy

Offline catboat

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Re: paper info
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2008, 05:28:20 PM »
I posted a similar thread over at castboolits.com.  Here is the link.   It generated some good questions.  Hope it helps.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=34782


I don't know what "ideal paper" is.  Perhaps it's a name brand.  It isn't a particular grade.

"Onionskin" is a term coined (and still used) to refer to thin sheets of paper, that isn't very opaque (sort of see-thru).

Paper toweling has very low ash (inorganic filler in it).  It has long fiber, and relatively low levels of short fiber (fines).  It has "wet strength" additives (to keep it strong when wet), but little to no "sizing" (for printability).  It is relatively bulky (thick), but if it works, then use it.

I think tracing paper is very interesting to use as a  paper patch material (think strong, and low filler content).  As I wrote in the included thread, the proper lens paper has good properties for a good paper patch material (low ash, strong).

Offline Lead pot

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Re: paper info
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2008, 12:50:52 PM »
Last week I was in Montana and walked into a down town office supply store and found three boxes of 7-1/2 pound onion skin 100% cotton cockle finish paper.
This paper is just about impossible to find any more, moisture bleeds through like cigarette paper and it's clay free.
I burn up 4 to 5 cases of black powder every year and 50-60% of the loads are PP and I cant see any bore wear but most of the paper I use is the above type and clay free.
Now I don't know the difference between clay or ash fillers.

Tnx for posting the information. Many ask about paper for patching.

LP
Dont go were the path leads,go were there is no path and leave a trail.

Offline twoshooter

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Re: paper info
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2009, 03:53:50 PM »
I have never tried a paper patch load, but I have often wondered what a teflon plummers stape would do. Anyone try it? Boes it just melt or something
1000 years ago Men KNEW the Earth was the center of the Universe.....500 years ago Men KNEW the world was flat....... 15 minutes ago you KNEW man was alone in the universe.... Just IMAGINE what we will know tomorrow !! "K"- from Men in Black.

Offline polemonkey

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Re: paper info
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2009, 06:21:18 PM »
I have a friend that I used to shoot, reload and cast with that would wrap cast bullets with teflon tape (2-3 full wraps) before sizing.  We never saw anything negative about the accuracy or performance of teflon wrapped bullets and we never saw any lead fowling in the barrels of the rifles we shot them in.  The only thing of a negative nature that we saw was a snow storm of teflon after each shot due to the tape not conpressing in the grooves in the bullet.

Offline goofyoldfart

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Re: paper info
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2010, 12:17:35 AM »
back in the 1970's I was shooting a Springfield 03-A3 in 30-06 with cast bullets (180 gr. from a lee mold--they were still lathe bored then) don't remember the powder or gr. amount but they were stout. the bullets were lubed with Alox and were wrapped with teflon plumbers tape 3-5 wraps. they were fitted to the throat and engraved about 3/64ths of an inch of the ogive.  I was getting 2750 FPS over a friends chrony. I was a Damn fool for leaving cast and going to jacketed, but my friend and I were working and making good bucks in the steel mill, overtime was excellent, supplies were inexpensive and we were velocity freaks. Now in my older age (much older--decades) I have returned to the pleasures of cast power and penetration at reasonable velocities and recoil (recoil much much importante) . by the way there was no leading and the bore had a mirror shine on it. the alloy was quite hard though we didn't measure it. fingernails and a small penknife blade gave us our basic hardness's (soft,medium,hard and armor-pierce ;D ;) ).  I realize that the thread hasn't been posted in for at least 120 days, but oh well, maybe some one will stumble on this and say --what heck is that goofy old fart talking about ;D  God Bless to all. 

P.S. after burning out the throats and most half of the barrels on 4-5 nice rifles, I finally figured out my friends insane desire to launch a bullet into orbit was just that -- insane. If I quit having to buy new guns, I could buy a heck of alot more ammo. ::) Still have that rifle and it now just shoots cast at reasonable velocities. Old Girl earned some rest and leisure :-*   

Offline .22-5-40

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Re: paper info
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2011, 06:06:38 PM »
Hello, catboat. You are spot-on about the abrasivness of paper-patches!  I spent 11/2 shooting seasons shooting nothing but paper-patch through a custom shillen barreled Sharps Borchardt .22 Hornet and a Ruger No. 1 in .222Rem.  I paid extra for hand-lapped Shillen brl.  I thought that brl. was smooth... After about 200 paper-patched loads...NOW it's smooth!  Wheras before, when cleaning, 1st. solvent soaked patch came out black, took two or three solvent soaked ones to clean up.  Now, 1st. soaked patch black, 2nd. soaked patch comes out muzzle looking like it did going into chamber, dry patch spotless.  I am kind of glad I stopped when I did..bore dazzles in light..but at what point does polishing become excessive wear?

Offline pdawg.shooter

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Re: paper info
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2011, 10:10:28 AM »
Hello, catboat. You are spot-on about the abrasivness of paper-patches!  I spent 11/2 shooting seasons shooting nothing but paper-patch through a custom shillen barreled Sharps Borchardt .22 Hornet and a Ruger No. 1 in .222Rem.  I paid extra for hand-lapped Shillen brl.  I thought that brl. was smooth... After about 200 paper-patched loads...NOW it's smooth!  Wheras before, when cleaning, 1st. solvent soaked patch came out black, took two or three solvent soaked ones to clean up.  Now, 1st. soaked patch black, 2nd. soaked patch comes out muzzle looking like it did going into chamber, dry patch spotless.  I am kind of glad I stopped when I did..bore dazzles in light..but at what point does polishing become excessive wear?

For years I have heard about paper wearing out you bore, usually comparing it to paper dulling a knife. Tell you what, sharpen up your knife and cut up a couple hundred pieces of paper. Now  resharpen the same knife and see how many jacketed bullets you can cut up. I have a 45-70 with over 6000 paper patch rounds and the bore looks just like the day I got it. Well it is a bit shinier. I use 16# green bar printer paper and all I have seen is a cleaner, smoother bore from it.