Any 243 Fans?

[BlackWolf]

I'm gonna have to agree with Nimrod on this one....  I've shot deer in the neck on several occassions, not one of them was planned.  

I do however agree with the overarching theme of this post though.  A .243 is an adequate deer rifle in a lot of situations.  I myself began hunting with a 6mm and killed several deer with it (albeit small deer).  At about age 14 or 15 I recieved my .270 that I still hunt with to this day.  I feel a little bit more confident with it for large deer or where shot angle isn't perfect.  My buck this year field dressed at 180 lbs - and while shot presentation was a nearly perfect broadside shot allowing easy access to the lung area, I am pretty darn happy that I had the 150 grain bullet instead of the old 100 grain bullet from the 6mm.  

Can a .243 kill a deer? Heck yeah - Can a .22 kill a deer? heck yeah again, but I wouldn't wanna try.  Too small of a bullet = wounded deer all too many times and its not fair to the game we chase.  Everyone should carry a rifle that they are comfortable and confident with into the hunting woods.  If that means the most recoil that they can handle and shoot well is a .243 well then by all means take it, you'll be adequately gunned for most shot presentations on most deer in most areas of the country.  If, however, you feel comfortable with the above mentioned 25-06, 7mm-08, .260, (and of course I have to give a plug for the .270)-  Then you can, in theory, give yourself more options when it comes time to take the shot at the trophy in your sights.

Happy Hunting!
BW

[DavOh]

Just to set the record straight, I never said the .243 was the "best deer cartridge" I just said it was a good deer cartridge. Personally I feel the .308 is the best deer cartridge. I've hunted with it for 10 yrs and if I do buy a different cal. rifle, it'll probably be either a quarter-alt-six or a 270.

Also for the record, my first deer was a big ol doe (by central Tx standards), quartering towards me at a little over 100 yds. The 100 Gr corelokt soft point came out the other side and she dropped right there. And yes I hit the shoulder blade.

Would I use the .243 out past 200 yds? Depending on the situation yes, and I have. For a head shot, yes which I have. Brain shots are instantaneous at any range, but shoulder shots with a .243 at that range can be tricky. For a youngster who's being mentored and supervised by their parent the .243 is a great rifle. When they step out on their own though, it's time for the .308 or any other ol .30 cal.

All in all, getting back to the original topic, yes I am a .243 fan.

[lilabner]

I read an article about the .243 which I thought made good sense. The author said much of the bad press the .243 gets is due to two factors. First, the .243 is often purchased as a first rifle for youngsters and as a rifle for wives to shoot. Youngsters and wives can be good shots, even great shots, but they often lack huntting experience and shooting skills and some are, by reason of inexperience, subject to buck fever. So, there can be a bullet placement problem which results in wounded deer being lost.  The second problem is bullet selection. The .243 is also a varmint cartridge and a lot of quick opening bullets are made for it. Use of these bullets on big game can have very poor results. I think the .243 is deadly in the hands of a good shoot and experienced hunter who can consistently place the proper bullet where it will do the most good. I don't think it is the best deer cartridge. The best deer cartridge is the .270 Winchester, IMO. If recoil is a problem for the shooter with the .270 130 gr. loading, he should step down to the 25-06.

[harvester]

or a 7mm-08.  its a .284" diameter bullet, with little more recoil than a 30-30.

david - i was referring to the author of the thread that proclaimed the .243 to be the best deer gun.  no need to set the record straight.  i too like the lightly loaded .308 as a lower recoil round.

[flintlock]

For Sale:Ruger M-77 .243 bought new in 1980 with Leopold VX-II 3x9x40....Rifle has killed about 140 whitetail deer...None ever went over 125 yards, most dropped at the shot or went less that 50...Bullets used...100gr CoreLokts, Federal 100gr Nosler Partition, Federal 100 gr Sierra BTSP, Federal 85gr Sierra BTHP, Federal Classic 100 gr, Winchester Supreme 100gr PowerPoint, Winchester Classic 100gr PowerPoint, Winchester 95 gr ballistic tip, Hornady 100gr Interlock, Nitrex 100gr Grand Slam....Sorry I have not yet tried Federal 95gr Fusion, Federal 85gr Barnes, Remingtons 90gr Scirocco, Remington 95gr AccuTip, Remington 100gr CoreLokt Ultra, Or any of the newer Hornady Loadings....I'm sure I missed some factory loadings....Shots were taken from 5 steps to 290-300 yards...Most shots were behind the shoulder...About 30 % were high shoulder shots and about 10% neck shots (base of the neck as it is joined to the shoulder and does not move up and down when the deer is feeding).....

Reason for sale.....Not enough factory bullets available, exit holes too small (only 1 1/2 to 2 inches)...Didn't realize until I listened to a panel of experts that whiletails were so tough and hard to kill...Didn't realize this was a "youth" gun...I'm 50 yrs...6ft 5 235lbs....Must uphold my maco image...Now that I have been enlighten I must have a larger caliber...
Brothers, nephews, hunting buddies etc have .260s, .270s, .280s, 30-06s,
7mm-08s, .270 WSM, 7mm Mag.300 WSM.....We kill 45-50 deer a year on our farms...All of the aboved calibers have lost deer due to poor shot placement except my .243.....Guess I need a .338 Mag....

I have 3 buddies that retired their '06 and bought .243s....After hunting with me for 8-10 years and helping clean numerous deer....One did shoot a 10 point in the guts....He had sense enough to wait 4 hours...deer went 75 yards and expired...Another shot one in the hams...broadside...Shot was taken too late...deer dropped and died right there....They are now "belivers"....

Gun has killed a bunch of crows, groundhogs, coyotes and other vermin...It is not the perfect deer rifle...neither is the .270, 7mm-08, '06,
25-05 .260 or any of the others....They can all be nit picked apart...I helped my brother track a doe 150 yards this year shot with his .270...He hit her behind the right shoulder...but, the deer was quartering toward him...HE made a bad shot...not the gun....Guts plugged the exit hole...I guess he is better off with a .270....I can't understand what is so hard about putting a bullet in a target the size of the lungs on a deer....If you can't hit a basketball at 200 yards....YOU need to learn how to shoot....
Possibly you should buy a .22, put a scope on it and hunt squirrels for a few years (head shots only)...

In the December 1999 Deer & Deer Hunting Mag...they report on a study made that covered 493 deer killed.....They found very little difference between deer shot with a 6mm, .25, 27 or 30 caliber rifles....What made the most difference was 1) Shot placement 2) Type bullet used....That's almost 500 deer ...They concluded by saying that you will see more difference in wound channel and distance travelled by looking at bullet construction than by looking at caliber....

Any offers on my deer rifle??? Its never had a deer walk away...Proven out to 300 yards...Groups run about 3/4 to one inch...Shoots 3 different factory loadings to the same POA at 100 yards....Kicks light enough that you see the deer drop in the scope.....Come on guys....I gotta have something that can get the job done!!! I'm afraid that the next time I pull the trigger the bullets are going to bounce off the side of the deer and explode like roman candles.....
 :-D  :-D  :-D

[DavOh]

:-D
No thanks flint, I'll stick to my mossberg 800a in .243 and Rem 788 in .308.  

Oh and harvester, I wasn't meaning to be arguemenative. Just making conversation.

People say the .243 is an inappropriate load for youngsters and wives... I do have to disagree. It worked for me like a charm from age 9 to age 12. Someone, I think in another thread, mentioned something about me being an "experienced" hunter and an "exceptional shot" I beleive the words were. At the time of my last use of a .243, I can lay claim to neither of those accounts. Although it doesnt hurt to hear them.  :wink:

Personally I agree with someone's assesment earlier in this forum that the rifle must be suited to the shooter. And their ability to control the beast, must be taken into account. Regardless of age. You start with constants in the "formula" if you will. What is the biggest variable that someone mentioned earler? Shot placement. If someone cannot place 10 out of 10 shots in the vitals(equivalent sized target, rather), they should not be allowed to hunt. IMHO. Especially when talking about a parent who is teaching their child the art of marksmanship, the responsibility of honing those skills lays with that parent. Again, just my humble opinion.

[DavOh]

I'm editing this after harvester's rant. Mainly because I didnt mean to post the same thing twice.

BUT.

1) Choosing shot oppurtunity is part of hunting. Look at the hundreds of thousands of successful bow hunters! It is a hunters responsibility, regardless of weapon choice, to know your weapon and choose your shot accordingly. Discipline.

2) Shot placement is KEY regardless of weapon choice. If you can shoot one caliber better than the other. and are more comfortable shooting it, and put in the range time, TO PRACTICE. Again Discipline.

3) To my knowledge, law enforcement and military research has leaned to the 5.56mm NATO and the 7.62 NATO rounds. (AKA the .223REM and .308WIN respectively) I've never read a government report on the merits of the .243win. Personally I dont take much stock in "government reports". Experience from the grunts on the ground. And I've never heard of a .243(or 6mm, i beleive) being used in combat by US troops.

[harvester]

flint -

if you pay attention to the rules here, you'll see that every firearm sale must start with a disclaimer stating that you need to ship FFL to FFL, or complete the sale face to face.

for what its worth, i think you're making the right decision.

seriously.

-  bigger bullets make bigger holes
-  bigger holes kill "better"

that's not all that difficult to argue, is it?

that's all that was ever argued.  the original poster said that the .243 was the perfect deer gun.  i never argued that it wasn't a deer gun.  only that there were better choices to be called the perfect deer gun.

140 deer just with the .243, eh?  and you go by flintlock, so i assume that you're shooting other weapons as well?  your a busy man.  

good for you if you're getting 1.5-2" exit holes with your .243.  do you mean to imply that you're getting 1.5-2" wound channels as well?  or simply that the bullet has fragmented so much upon exit, that the wound has spread out that much?  either way, if you've found a bullet that expands 6-8 times its original diameter, while retaining weight and shape necessary for penetration, in a meager 100 grains, hold on to it, because it must be an industry first.  

that seems rather unimaginable to me - excuse me if i err on the side of caution.  others might read your account and decide that anecdotal evidence from an anonymous internet poster is sufficient reason to use a .243.  good for them.

of course, every other caliber you mentioned, performed poorly because of terrible shot placement.  then you go on to say that you make perfect shots every time.  well that's a great basis of comparison, don't you think?

as i said in my first post, any caliber is sufficient if shots are ideal.  if all you ever take is broadside shots - pick whatever caliber you like and run with it.

as far as the deer and deer hunting article - well, of course shot placement is the most important.  and the type of bullet used is important.  AND???  come on, what does that tell us? you don't honestly expect anyone to believe that deer and deer hunting magazine sent an expert out to examine the wounds of nearly 500 deer, do you?  do you think, maybe, it was a information collected remotely, from guides, or hunters, etc?  i seriously doubt the integrity of their little experiment.

i will rely on the ballistic information that has been steadily proven from our armed forces, police agencies, fbi, etc.  they actually do REAL studies, because it matters to them, they are not trying to sell magazines with sponsors.  that is laughable.

in the end, this debate was about the best deer rifle FOR ALL, not just what YOU can use effectively.. certainly science needs to be corroborated with real world experience, but you seem to have discredited it althogether.  and quite frankly, i think you've embellished your experiences for the sake of the argument.

i don't expect ANYONE to believe the facts that i've presented, after all, i'm just an anonymous joe blow on a silly web site.  its incumbant for each hunter learn his trade, hopefully from more reliable sources than internet message boards.

if there wasn't enough terminal ballistic information available, here's a source of ancillary information:

http://www.born-to-track.com/book/order-info.htm

Tracking Dogs for Finding Wounded Deer

by John Jeanneney

as a side note, in the book, which is about wounded deer, not guns, the author mentions that when tracking deer wounded with guns, he gets the MOST number of calls from hunters using .243's, far and away.

[Qaz]

Thank you Flintlock, you took the words right out of my mouth!
 
Qaz

[flintlock]

Harvester...click on my "handle" and go back and do a search on topics I have discussed and you will have a better background of my experiences...

In a nutshell...yes...my passions include American longrifles...I have built/hunted with and competed with since 1975....I also give talks on American history at local schools where I bring in examples of my flinters and demonstrate to the students...

I grew up on a farm, dad was a John Deere dealer, so I was hunting with him before grade school...by the time I was 10-12 I had my own 12 gauge and a .22 and loved to squirrel, rabbit, quail, dove, crow hunt....That is how I learned to shoot and hunt....One of the problems I see with the guests we bring up to hunt our farms is that they didn't learn the hunting/shooting skills when they were younger, so their marksmanship is...average...I am from a big family, we own 3 farms in eastern NC...about 850 acres, and raise corn, peanuts, soybeans, wheat, cotton and deer...lots of deer...I was helping to control the deer population on our farms by the time I was 15....It wasn't unusual to see 30-40 deer in our peanuts, beans, etc.....I actually started with a 22-250....but, thats another story....

Through the years we have learned that to control the population, so the farmer won't spotlight the deer in the summer (Legal...because he is the farmer, he quit, when I suggested that I was going to take him out behind the barn if I ever caught him doing it again)...we have found that if we remove 40-50 deer a year from the 3 farms that he doesn't have too much crop damage and we still have a good healthy population to hunt...
We have been harvesting this many deer for about 25 years....The limit in NC is 6 a year....Being landowners, we also get extra doe tags....So I can assure you...140 deer was not an embellishment...if anything I am being conservative...Our bow season runs one month...Gun season almost 3.

The study I was referring to was conducted by Charles Ruth..A wildlife biologist for the state of SC Dept of Natural Resources,  because he wanted scientific proof as to the most effective deer calibers...It was conducted at the Cedar Knoll Club in SC...the article states that they recorded every shot fired on the clubs land (603 shots) ...493 deer killed..
They recorded distance the animal was from the shot, type bullet used, how far the animal went before recovered, where the shot hit....They also discovered (as most if us know) that  when hunters used softer bullets vs harder bullets the deer dropped quicker...So, if you don't believe me....contact Mr. Ruth...

Now...you mentioned that the larger diameter bullet, the larger hole.....
Not exactly....In muzzleloaders, shooting patched round balls...yep thats true....Shooting a high powered centerfire rifle...not true at all....As I have mentioned on here in the past...from 1980 until 1995 I used 100 gr CoreLokts on deer....During this time period I killed about 75 deer with  CoreLokts, they did fine, but newer "Premium" bullets were being offered...I wanted to try them all, so I started by sighting in with a particular buller, and killed 5-6 deer with and examined the carcass....
There is a huge difference in the wound channel made between different bullets....A "hard" 130 gr .270 bullet can make a smaller exit hold than a "softer" 100 gr .243 bullet...The thickness of the jacket, the hardness of the lead inside of the bullet, type of tip or exposed lead...all of these make a big difference....The hardest bullets I ever tried in a .243 were the Remington Premium 100gr BTSP....they have quit making them....They always gave me full penetration, even on high shoulder shots...on lung shots they gave about a half inch size hole...deer ran farther after the shot with this bullet than any other bullet I used...I quit using them they were so hard....I had 2 deer that ran 125 yards after the shot...if these had been hit with a Federal Sierra 100gr BTSP or the 85gr BTHP, they wouldn't have made it 50 yards....

You also mentioned that a larger hole killed quicker....To a degree, yes...as shown by the above example....A big part is where the hole is.....
If I need to drop a deer in its tracks (and with our swamps in eastern NC and cutovers sometimes this does need to be done)...I usually  put the bullet through the shoulder blades or use a high lung shot...This is also where a softer bullet helps....you put the shock of a fast moving bullet 3-4 inches under the spine...the deer drops....I do not like this shot with a slow moving muzzleloader though, it doesn't always drop them right there.....
Now, on lung shots...you are hard pressed to see any difference between the 130 Sierra BTSP my brother and his son use and when I use a 100gr Sierra BTSP....Deer hit  with a broadside center lung shot hit....usually run from 25-75 yards.....When you open up the body cavity it is mush...So I can't really tell you how "wide" the wound channel is, when you hit lungs they explode like a gallon jug filled with water...

While we are on this bigger is better theory...let me tell you an incident that happened about 5-6 years ago....My youngest brother (he is now 44 I'm 50) and I were hunting together, on the ground in late December, over a winter wheat field....between 18-25 does had been feeding in this field so we decided to take a couple out....On schedule the does started piling out of a cutover beside the field right after sundown...we had a group of 5 that stepped out and started feeding our way...When they got about 150 yards away we both took a rest, him on an old fence post, me on a oak tree....
We decided which 2 we were going to take out...Brother said shoot on 3...and started counting....Well...he never said 3...it was 1-2 BANG....My deer bolted....I put the cross hairs on another doe and shot...Brother was laughing...He knew what he was doing....Anyway he was shooting 130 Federal Premium Sierra BTSP...I was shooting Federal Premium 100gr Sierra BTSP...We walked out to the field to find our blood trails....Only found one...Followed it into the woods...The doe was laying there, had run about 75 yards...We looked around, couldn't find the other doe...Brother was starting to think he had missed.....We went back and looked at the doe laying there...2 exit holes...2 entrance holes....Both lung shots....
How in the world a 100 pound doe can take 2 good hits in the lungs and still run 75 yards is amazing....But she did...Bigger holes don't always mean faster kills....Put the hole where you need to for the situation you have....As I mentened earlier...in my teens I used a 22-250...If I would wait until the deer got  75-80 yards into the field they usually didn't make it back to the woods...If I needed to drop them I put the bullet at the base of the neck....And this was way before the 60 gr Nosler Partition that Federal loads now....My 15yr old niece dropped 2 does in their tracks over Thanksgiving this year with brothers 22-250 and the Noslers....High shoulder shots....Exit hole the size of a quarter...

When I get asked by locals what deer cartridge they should buy I usually tell them .270....I actually am not in love with the .243, growing up working on a farm and using equipment, taught me how to look at tools and equipment....Thats how I look at guns...I just want something that works....I have never passed on a shot because I was using a .243...I have with a bow, I have with a flinter, I have with a shotgun....I don't like to skin deer with their guts blown up, and I'm too dang old to be in the swamps tracking them after dark....After cleaning hundreds of deer shot with a mess of different calibers and bullets I have found that bullet makeup and shot placement are what you need to focus on....I recommend the .270 because the average hunter can't always place his bullet where it needs to be (not just marksmanship but when the deer is quartering also) and doesn't always have the patience to wait until the proper time to shoot or doesn't know how to stop the deer and have it give you a good shot...We have had cases on our farms where a guy comes in for the weekend with a 7mm Mag....has a bad problem with flinching...Never admits it...Shoots at a deer, wounds it, gets into the swamp, bears or coyotes get to it that night....If there was a way to measure, I would bet that more deer are wounded each year by hunters flinching than by shooting a lighter kicking cartridge.....I have actually had some of these guys ask me what I use, when I tell them, they ask "Will that kill a deer?"....Doesn't bother me, I get that same question when I pull out my .54 caliber flintlock that I made 16 or so years ago....Except
then I tell them that Daniel Boone died in his sleep, this is all he ever had and he was almost 85...

Another reason hunters miss or worse wound deer is from "buck fever"....I have never understood how a grown man can almost pee in his pants when a decent buck comes by...About 3 years ago we were hunting during the muzzleloader season...We had one hunter setup over a bean field...When a buck comes out of the woods and makes his way to a treelind 100 yards from the hunter....the buck proceeds to make a scrape and rub his antlers on a tree.....this guy got so nervous that he couldn't shoot....he would raise his gun, but the crosshairs wouldn't settle down...Now this guy is 38-40 years old, had hunted for years....Later he was even laughing at himself....He did kill a nice buck later that afternoon...At the same scrape...after the first one left....It took us awhile to track that deer....He thought it was huge....Well it was a decent 9 point but we had a little ground shrinkage...

Having 2 brothers I can assure you that we have had this same discussion many times during the last 25 years....My youngest as stated before has two .270s, one for him, one for his son....My other brother has a .280 for himself and a 7mm-08 for his son...I haven't seen much difference in how far a deer runs after the shot with any of these....using similiar bullets and when hit in the same place...By the way....neither of my brothers has a question about a .243 anymore...nor do any of my regular hunting buddies....And the guys that come down with the magnums....I don't have to tell them anything, its always a niece, nephew, cousin, etc...

If I lived in say Colorado, I would want to hunt elk...I would probably have a .300 Win Mag....If I hunted woods only, might want to use a .308...In Texas, on the King Ranch .270...In Canada...30-06....But I shoot year round and more than just deer...I usually buy a case of shells a year, so I get the same lot number...In my case the .243 works well....

I hope this answers your questions, If I missed anything please feel free to ask....I didn't see (or missed) where you had tried a .243...If I missed I'm sorry to bring it up...If you have, which bullets did you try?? And how did it fail you???  I'm always happy to help.

As far as the government....couple of questions....When did the FBI start hunting deer? And, "Who really killed Kennedy???" :-D  :lol:

[rickt300]

Flintlock, I have to say it couldn't have been better written and your post mirrors my experience. I will say that though the 243 can be considered perfect for certain types of deer hunting I don't think any single cartridge or rifle is perfect for all types.  I agree also that bore diameter does not materially change wound channels if bullets of similar construction are used but the added mass will increase penetration. For me the 243 and 308 using similar bullets kill equally well as there is no shot I will take with the 308 that I won't with the 243. If your the type that shoots at deer from any angle running or not then the 308 is probably a better choice but if you are ethical in your shot choices then I don't believe you will see any difference in deer fatality.  Velocity at impact and bullet design have a far greater effect than bullet diameter.

[harvester]

flintlock - thanks for the thoughtful, intelligent post.  its much nicer to have a civilized conversation than 2 people throwing sarcasm back and forth, right? ;-)

i originally responded to this post because the author said that he thought the .243 was the perfect deer round.  i do not.  in fact, i think you and i are mostly in complete agreement.

i did do some research last night, and found the study that you referenced.  deer and deer hunting must have just reported on it.  the study was interesting, and i found some curious stats - i like the examination of hard vs. soft bullets, not only in "quickness of killing" but blood trails left as well.  

that study concluded exactly what i've maintained all along.  deer shot in the chest, where the bullet reaches the thorax, die, period.  as the study concluded, whether deer dies within 20 yards or 40 yards is most times irrelevant.

i had a few concerns with the study.  first - they only counted deer that were shot in the chest and neck region.  all other shots were discounted, most times, because the deer were not recovered.  often times, those are precisely the deer i'd want to examine.  that's where caliber could potentially make a difference.  shot placement is the most important aspect, obviously.  and larger calibers don't make a bad shot "good".  however, i contend that for the average hunter, where bad shots happen, right or wrong, larger wound channels increase chances of recovery.

the second problem i had with the study was that even 500 deer is a relatively small sample.  and there was little information regarding the background experience of the hunters involved.  people who participate in such activities are often times more experienced hunters.  caliber recommendations, in my opinion, should factor in experience level.  and i also believe that as the caliber decreases, the experience level should go up.  though cedar knoll is a private club.  and they did install rails on all the tree stands for aids in marksmanship.  so this obviously was a concerted effort for deer killing, and that skews the picture a little.  the average michigan deer hunter isn't quite as efficient as this crew was.

(incidentally, caliber choice was one of many questions being sought.  they were also looking to determine distance traveled after shot, effectiveness of tracking dogs, differences in firearms, and differences in types of ammunition.)

there were some abstract concerns with the study as well.  for example, of the 221 deer found dead, 61 left no sign at the point of shot impact.  they conclude that caliber is irrelavant when deer are shot in the vitals, and i agree.  but they made no caliber distinction, for example, on those 61 deer that left no sign, even though they were recovered.  a few other minor issues like that, but....

all in all though, studies can't be perfect, and this one seemed to make a good effort to answer the questions posed.  i'd recommend it as reading material for hunters - there is some good information - it can be found here:

 http://www.scilowcountry.org/cedar_knoll_deer_study.htm

now, as far as wound channel size, i'd still have to disagree.  you can't compare a hard .270 bullet to a soft .243 bullet.  sure the .243 may have a larger wound channel - the soft bullet is designed to expand more.  my point is that, bullet construction being equal, the larger caliber creates larger wounds.  you'd agree with that, right?

your reasons for recommending the .270 - i agree with wholeheartedly.  (though, i'm more a fan of the 7mm-08, or the .308 - little larger, and both having the potentional for less recoil than the .270, but thats a moot point.  we're saying the same thing.)  you summarized my whole argument right there!

no, though i've shot and used .243's for other critters, i don't use them for deer.  i currently use a 30-30 for some of the close quarter work we've got here in the big woods, and a lightly hand-loaded .30-06 for any more distance.  handloading, as you may well know, affords us to greatly reduce the recoil of rounds like the .30-06, while having the ability to load it up for bigger game.  (course, i bowhunt and ML as well.)

never been my intent to discredit the .243 as a deer round.  only to provide counterpoints to the idea that its the perfect deer round.

for what its worth, i don't doubt that you've shot 140 deer.  i actually had a harder time with the exit wound size - i've shot soft .308 diameter bullets through deer, and been happy to get 1" exit wounds.  2" wounds from a .243 is plausible to me if the bullet has fragmented.  but a 2" wound channel, all the way through a deer, with a .243?  and you're getting this all the time?  i've never had a bullet that would expand 8 times and retain enough weight for the penetration i'm seeking.

and no, the fbi doesn't shoot deer.  however, these branches have a wealth of information on how bullets kill - and far more work has been done in that field than in examination of bullet wounds on deer.  i know a wound on a human and deer are different, but its the best terminal ballistic information that we've got.  the information provided in the cedar knoll study has been proven time and time again on *different* subjects.

hey, i think we agree much more than we disagree.

[rickt300]

Harvester, I think your are getting narrow wound channels because you use relativley hard bullets. Fragmenting is not all bad as long as you get adequate penetration. With my favorite deer bullets I often get radial damage in a much greater area than 2 inches and have gotten exits of way over 3inches across. With a bullet that does a lot of internal damage the animal will bleed thru the mouth and entrance hole, sometimes profusely. And the trail is often short.  I used the vaunted 100 grain Nosler Partition on a few deer and hogs, the result was a lot more trailing and the small exit holes left little blood. Destrpy as much of the plumbing as possible and the animal will go down within a reasonable distance if not immediatly. If it absolutely has to be right now make a neck or spine shot. You will be far better served by your rifles if youwork at destroying vitals rather than bone. Easier on the meat too.