Caliber and Bullet for 300yd to 400yd shooting?

[Buckfever]

I would like to stay away from a Magnum if possible.  Mostly used for Mule deer and Whitetail.  So, .270, .280, .308?  Lo0king for very accurate combination to reach out a ways.
Example might be 130gr in a .270 Ballistic tip.  I need some help here I am basically a woods and timber hunter, need the open country hunters to tell me how it is.  Thanks  Buckfever

[jason280]

I recommend the .280 Remington with a 140gr Nosler ballistic tip.  Makes an excellent 300 yard deer gun, and the bullet performs well on deer sized game.  How can you argue with a 14ogr bullet at 3000fps? :grin:

[Graybeard]

All are fully up to the task at 300 yards. At 400, well yeah probably but the real question is ARE YOU? Folks toss such numbers around awfully loosely as if all it takes is a flat shooting rifle. It takes a bunch more. It takes an accurate rifle, a shooter who is practiced and knows both his rifle and the distance and a solid rest. Lacking anyone of those factors the shot shouldn't be taken.

If you've not practiced at such ranges you really shouldn't be shooting game at them.

I'd go with either the .270 or the .280 for the job personally but not the .308.

[Slamfire]

The longest shot I've taken in 50 years of huntin' was paced at 326 long strides, however with the uphill and downhill components it is doubtful that the bullet traveled 300 yards. You can't always get closer, but it sure is fun tryin'.
Cartridges from .26 caliber on up will kill at those ranges you asked about, but the wind becomes a very big factor. I won't try them.

[Buckfever]

Sir, I believe everything you said to be true on this subject.  I hope I never have to shoot over 200yds and 300yd is probably my Max.  I asked for a gun capable to 400yd so I wasn't running out of gun at 250yd. to 300yd.  I have given serious thought to this quest and have found a clear cut of Timber here in Minnesota where I can use my ATV and a rangefinder to set up some large pieces of cardboard to actually see what the gun does from a good collapsible shooting table and  firm rests at 100, 200, and 300, I may never practice at 400 and then my limit is a 300yd shot.  As you stated most of this is the preparation and practice.

I just want to make sure I am going to start practicing this spring and want a good caliber and bullet combination for this endeavor.  Thanks for the reply and I couldn't agree anymore.   Buckfever

[TexasNimrod]

A .25/06 with a 115 - 120gr bullet does awesome things to deer at 300 - 400 yards.

[Redhawk1]

I have to echo what Graybeard said. It is more so of the person being up for that distance. A lot od practice at that range is needed.  

[Gregory]

Of the three you list, I'd get a .270 for what you need.  Buy plenty of ammo and shoot it alot.

[tuck2]

I`v used a Mdl 70 270 Winchester since 1952 to get pronghorn,mule deer and elk. The 270 is a fine first big game rifle.  Learn to reload  the 100,110,130,140,and 150 bullets for the 270. I`v hit prairie dogs out to 300 + yds with the 100 gr bullet, 130 gr bullets on pronghorn and mule deer at the same range. Used the 150 Gr bullet on elk out to about 250 Yds. Over the years I have used 19 different calibers for hunting varmints and big game but the old 270  is still the tops in my book.

[jro45]

The only thing I know is that you have to have a steady rest to shoot from
and the 270 Win could do it once sighted in at that distance. And a lot of practice to get a small group.

[poncaguy]

With a good rest, I shot a 6 point at 351 steps with my Super Shadow 270 WSM, fell in it's track, but destroyed far side shoulder. Was using 130 grain Winchester Ballistic Silver Tips, which I don't recommend unless you have a perfect lung/heart shot through the rib cage.
 25-06, 270 , 270 WSM and 280 all good calibers if you have to take long range shots and have a accurate rifle.

[MickinColo]

I agree with Graybeard, a long shot takes everything he mentioned and a little more. Wind of any strength, animal movement, mirage, can negate any shot made by an experienced long range shooter, let alone someone that doesn’t have a clue of want 400 yards really is. I practice on a silhouette range regularly. I know what 200, 300, 385 (421 yards), and 500 meters (547 yards) looks like. Taking a shot at a steel target with the objective of just hitting it and pushing off a rail is totally different from placing a shot in the vitals of a big game animal.

Although 7mm BR, 308 Win, 260, 270, and 280 have all been used with various success as a silhouette target caliber, IMO they fall short of being a “long range big game rifle” caliber. IMO a caliber that shoots a bullet with enough weight to still have the energy needed by the time it gets to 400 yards with the shortest amount of flight time is called for, unfortunately all that come to mind have “Magnum” at the end of their name.

[mitchell]

gosh people it's not rocket science. like anything worth wile it takes some work but it can be done by most everybody. i've took my 308 win out past 400 yards a few times and the results tasted great.


if the rule of thumb is 1000 foot pounds of energy for a deer then any of the gun he listed will have more then enough power to get there. since the 270 has been said so many times lets just use it for example .

lets say our load is (BTW my old load): a 130 game king going 3100 fps . and it's zeroed at 250 yards (best point blank range) your bullet when getting to target at 300 yards would have 1736ft-lbs of energy would of only dropped 3.3 inches and only took a .327 of a sec to get there.

sounds simple to me. but lets throw in a kink , how about a 10 mile an hour wind. ok hold into the wind 6.5 inches. is there something i'm missing, cas boy this seams simple?

now lets talk about the possibility of the gun being able to get there . by cone theory if your gun shoots 1 inch groups at 100 yards (MOA) it will shoot 2 inch groups at 200 yards (MOA) and 3 inch at 300 (MOA) and 4 inch at 400(MOA) and so on and so forth. now believe it or not just about all shooters are capable of this, but they just haven't trained themselves to do it yet.


just for the heck of it since 400 yards was said too here's the numbers for it.  energy 1471, drop 14.5 inches, flight time .45 sec. and in a ten mile wind (don't really matter we wouldn't shot in the wind anyway) your wind drift wold be just under 12 inches.


so there you have it buckfever numbers don't lie.  BTW unless with a bow i rarely shoot deer under 200 yards and your choice of a 270 with a 130 grain ballistic tip is great.

[beemanbeme]

.280, 140gr NP, any good 3x9 scope and practice, practice, practice.  I would suggest sighting in the rifle from a bench but do all of your practice and clear-cut shooting from field positions.  THEN you will find out how hard making a reliable, killing shot at 300-400 yards really is.

[Graybeard]

Sorry Mitch but you are over simplifying the matter. If you think most shooters are up to MOA shooting to 400 yards you need to watch on sight in day at any range in the country and especially in areas that are not open country. Most have a hard enough time getting it on paper at 100 yards. If they can actually put two in a row on that paper they call it good and go home ready to hunt.

Been there seen that for over 40 years and hundreds of folks. That really ain't gonna cut it. And I know of darn few folks and I'm NOT one of them that can hold MOA from field postions. From the bench like we did on prairie dogs in June sure. I can hit PDs at 400 on a fairly regular basis IF i know it's 400 yards and the wind isn't blowing too much and I have someone spotting to tell me what I do wrong so I can correct on the next shot. But game at that range from field positions? I'd rather not try.

Most folks will not practice at 100 yards let alone more and of those who would darn few have a place to practice out that far. Having a rifle up to the job is but a small part of it. A very small part.

Heck from the bench I can hit deer kill zone size steel slabs with my handguns, even iron sighted ones after I walk it in. Might and have hit as many as 5 of 6 and on rare occasions 6 of 6 like that. But I'd dang sure not try that on game under field conditons with that iron sighted revolver or a scope sighted one either.

[mitchell]

well bill i'm not what you call trained i just shoot alot but my longest kill on a deer was 512 yards and off a bipod in the field.

[Slamfire]

The trouble with holdin' 6" into the wind, is that how do you know it is a 10 mph wind? Is it steady? Is it exactly perpenidcular to your shot? Is the wind blowing that way all the way out to 400 yards? I've never experienced any of those condiditons, and dopin' wind is a art form that you can only learn through practice. And then you are assumin' the range is what you think it is. One big name gun writer recommends folks sight in for 200 yards, because that way they won't miss high when they overestimate the range. I use my duplex reticule to keep me from makin' gross errors, but you have to know the size of the game, and have the animal stand still enough for you to figure out how far off it is. Long range shootin' is difficult enough without oversimplifin' the problem.

[mitchell]

i hate to say it but i've done it too much to be told i'm wrong. i have 5 kills on deer past 400 yards one past 500! if its too windy then don't freaking shoot, unless you know how fast its going (that why i try to go shooting every windy day i can). as for guessing the range NEVER guess get a range finder.


BTW i have never missed on a deer past 400 yards.



slamfire: long range shooting is hard because people make it hard . don't nock it till you have tried it.

[Redhawk1]

i hate to say it but i've done it too much to be told i'm wrong. i have 5 kills on deer past 400 yards one past 500! if its too windy then don't freaking shoot, unless you know how fast its going (that why i try to go shooting every windy day i can). as for guessing the range NEVER guess get a range finder.


BTW i have never missed on a deer past 400 yards.



slamfire: long range shooting is hard because people make it hard . don't nock it till you have tried it.

mitchell, not to take anything away from you and what you say. But I have been shooting longer than you have been alive. (I have seen a lot) At 400 and 500 yards, the margin of error is amplified. Sure it is not rocket science, but from what I have seen, some have problems hitting a consistent 4 inchs at 100 yards let alone 400 or 500 yards. There are way to many variables at long range. I won't call you a lier, but I find it a little hard to believe. JMHO.  

[mjbgalt]

i wouldn't find it hard to believe, since the reports from the PD shoot were that mitchell hit some dogs out around 400 yards. a prairie dog is a heck of a lot smaller than a deer's vitals.

-Matt

[mitchell]

well i do agree that some people can't do better then 4 inches at 100 but they can't do that because they haven't been taught to do better. i've never been trained in any way but i have put 100's of hours in reading and 1000's of rounds down range but still i;m confident with 2 of my rifles that if a deer was with in 500 standing still (all of those deer i was talking about where killed while they were eating in a crop field) and having little to no wind, i know that i can kill it . if people will just put the time in to it they will be able to hunt like that . just last week i saw a friend kill a deer at 650 yards using a remington 710 in 270 .


and bill speaking of the P-dog shoot remember wes taking off p-dog heads of a pair of shooting sticks?? they where 300 yards away.

[Lawdog]

While any of the following(.25-06, .270, .280, .30-06, etc.) will get the job done but I have to agree with Graybeard and the others.  Shooting a deer at 400 plus yards isn’t something that most of the shooters today can do with any regularity.  The longest shot I ever made on a deer was tad over 570 yards on a nice 3x3 Blacktail buck.  The only problem is that from the time I made my calculations, squeezed the trigger and the bullet got to the deer it had taken a large step forward and instead of making a bragging shot through the chest, I had a gut shot buck to track down.  We found that buck the next day after the Coyotes had been at it.  I took the horns(the only thing that was any good) but what I should have taken was the tail and the hide around it.  That is the fitting trophy I deserved.   :roll:   Since then I can count on my fingers the number of deer I have taken over 400 yards although I practice at ranges out to 600 - 700 yards regularity.  So if you think you are going to be shooting deer at those ranges then get ready to burn up LOTS of ammo at the range.  Lawdog
 

[victorcharlie]

While I don't doubt that a shot on deer sized game can be made at extreme ranges, I don't have the eyes to see a deer at 400 yards......

Our local rifle club has daily use ranges out to 300 yards, and a 500 yard range that is used only during competitions..........500 yards is a long, long way........I've been deer hunting the past several days in the hardwoods and pine thickets of east Tennessee.........the deer seem to blend into the woods at about 30 yards......very difficult to see........

However, cast my vote for any of the 30/06 based cartridges.  6mm gibbs up to 338/06.......I don't think I'd try a 400 yard shot with a 35. Whelen......

Many years ago, while a young soldier going through basic training at Ft. Bliss Texas, I fired well over 6000 rounds of 223 at ranges out to 300 meters in a matter of weeks.....several hundred rounds a day........These were at man sized sillouette targets with "ghost ring" sites that are on the M-16............I easily qualified "expert" as groundhogs at extended ranges were my thing in high school.........but with a scoped .243.......300 meters, or yards, is a long way and a fellow has to draw a fine bead to hit targets at that range...........

The key is to know the exact range, and to practice, practice and practice........Sure was nice of Sam to let me get all that range time in...free ammo, and pretty much all I wanted to shoot.......and to think......most of it was before breakfast!

[Graybeard]

i wouldn't find it hard to believe, since the reports from the PD shoot were that mitchell hit some dogs out around 400 yards. a prairie dog is a heck of a lot smaller than a deer's vitals.

I reckon most all of us at the prairie dog shoot made numerous shots out around and even over the 400 yard mark on those PDs. We all also MISSED a lot at less distance. And we were shooting highly accurate flat shooting rifles with high powered scopes from a bench and sandbags NOT from field rests.

I fully realize there are folks who do in fact shoot enough and are good enough to make the shots WHEN ALL GOES RIGHT. But in the real world it don't ALWAYS go right. Dunno about where you hunt but where I've hunted here in Bama and in all other states the colder it gets as in deer season the more the wind seems to blow. And rock solid rests in areas I've hunted are hard to come by. The time it takes a bullet to leave the muzzle and arrive at the deer's location is more than enough time for the deer to not even be there anymore should it decide at the inportune time to depart or even just take a step and put the bullet in the gut.

[lilabner]

Many cartridges are capable of long range shooting if the range can be determined and the shooter is capable of holding close enough to put bullets in the vital area at long range. A laser range finder and knowledge of bullet drop at all ranges is helpful. Drop is moderate at 300 yards but quite rapid between 300 and 400 yards. A steady shooting position is essential and shooting sticks or bipods are helpful. The scope must have enough magnification for a good point of aim. Wind drift is a serious problem unless wind velocity can be estimated accurately and that is difficult under some hunting conditions. If you intend to take long range shots, practice at long range until you are confident that you can consistently place bullets where they need to go. I think you are on the right track looking at cartridges of moderate recoil. If the rifle is enjoyable to shoot, you'll practice more with it and shoot more accurately. I pass up many more long range shots than I take but if conditions are right (the animal isn't moving and presents a broadside opportunity and there isn't very much wind) I will take the shot.

[Zachary]

Let me first say that I am not going to get into the debate of long range shooting.  Rather, I am going to answer the initial question as presented without adding the issue (albeit well pointed) of long range shooting.

Many years ago, the .30-06 was the gun of choice for long range shooting competitions.  Then, when people starting shooting the .308s, it became apparent the more and more competitions were won with the .308s.  Why?  From what I have been told, the .308, given its shorter powder column, was more INHERENTLY accurate.  Also, the .308 had less recoil than the .30-06.  In addition, the .308 has been used in the armed services for years now and has proved to be an accurate cartridge (again, speaking generally).

Based on the foregoing, I would say that the .308 is a proven performer.  As for bullets, the 168 grainers are pretty much synonymous with shooting competitions.  Sure, .30 caliber bullets come in many weights, and the closest to the 168 is the 165.  However, the 165s are usually hunting bullets, while the 168s are purely competition - like the Sierra MatchKing.  Many people say that you should not use competition bullets for hunting, and I agree with that general statement.  However, does that mean that a 165 grain Ballistic Tip will be less accurate than a 168 MatchKing?  Well, I wouldn't neccesarily say that, but a lot of competition shooters use the 168 MatchKings over the 165 Ballistic Tips.

That said, I still like the .270 Winchester - primarily with 130s.  It shoots flatter than a .308 165ish grainer, and should have a tad less recoil, or maybe even the same - which shouldn't be that much more, if any.

My father once took 3 shots at 3 deer (1 shot each) at 400+ yards within 3 minutes.  Sounds increadible right?  Well, it was.  He was using a .30-06 with 180 grain bullets.  I don't remember the bullet type, but it was when I was about 16 years old, so that must have been 1986.  I think it was Remington Pointed Soft-Point Core-Lokts.  That was a strange gun.  It was a Remington wood stocked BDL with a metal butt plate and "made-before-Jesus" fixed 4x Weaver scope.  At 100 yards a little better than MOA.  However, at 200 yards, the dang thing shot under half MOA!!  Yea, the bullets were touching at 200 yards - go figure!!  Now, my father was a great shooter in the military, and I have never, and probably can never, shoot half as great as he does.  In the military, he shot at very, very long ranges.  When the guide picked us up, not even he could believe that my dad shot 3 deer at 400+ yards.  I remember my dad saying that the deer were very small in the scope.  Funny...today we think that we need 24x powered scopes to shoot a deer at 100 yards.

Zachary

[mjbgalt]

point taken, GB. I guess I didn't factor in that those hits were rested and that they were not necessarily one shot kills, rather that they could be "walked" into the target by calling the misses.

however i was just sticking up for mitchell. reading his posts for the last year or so tells me he is not a liar and that he doesn't claim to do things he cannot do.

-Matt

[jro45]

I like to shoot at a 1/2" circle set at 200 yds. I can with a rifle that can do it, like a flat shooter 30 caliber, put 2 bullets inside this circle. I have a solid rest on sand bags. I know what I can do.

[Graybeard]

however i was just sticking up for mitchell. reading his posts for the last year or so tells me he is not a liar and that he doesn't claim to do things he cannot do.

Oh I certainly wouldn't call Mitch a liar by any means. He struck me as a really nice young man who loves his shooting and hunting and does a lot of both. I was near enough to him some of the time there to see he can shoot for sure.

My point is merely that even tho a small percentage of shooters are capable of making such long range shots most are not. Even for those who are tho there are so many factors involved that are beyond their control that it is mighty easy for an otherwise good shot to go astray and miss or wound an animal.

I have no doubt there are times and circumstances under which I might take a 400 yard shot on big game. Not many mind you but likely it could happen altho it never has. But I'd do so ONLY if the wind was near calm, the game unaware and stationary and the rest rock solid. If with all that the range known with certainty and me sure of my trajectory and the cross hairs were steady where I knew they needed to go and not wobbbling around I'd shoot perhaps. Without all that in place I'd not.

[MickinColo]

If I had the chance I would reword my previous post. In my gun cabinet there is a 243 Win, 270 Win, 7mm Mauser, and a 308 Win. I shoot all of them with varying reliability at the range out to 500 Meters. Can they all make 400-yard kills on deer? The answer is yes and the 270 has. Are they 400-yard big game hunting rifles? IMO no.

Along with those rifles there is a 25-06 and a 7mm Rem Mag in the gun cabinet. Are they 400-yard big game hunting rifles? My answer is “they are close”. Not because they’re so much more ballistically superior, but more to the fact that they’re consistent sub MOA shooters and have more than a Wally World special 3x9 seating on top of them. These rifles carry 16X scopes with target reticules and wear swivel bipods 24-7, I use them for antelope hunting. Have they lain in the grass with me and shoot antelope at 400-yards? Yes and then some.

In the last 25 years of antelope hunting I have seen some “remarkable” marksmanship. I’ve seen everything from the biggest Weatherbys to Winchester 94 30-30s shooting at antelope out to 1000 yards and beyond.  I have mercy-killed almost 2 dozen wounded animals. I’ve made stopping shots on animals for people that used all their ammunition trying to get their antelope down. In 1997 my wife ran a wounded doe down and dispatched it with her skinning knife because that was all she had with her. That doe was shot 7 times with 2 legs blown off and it still got away from her pursuers.

I’ve seen and dealt with the handy work of the “anyone can make a 400-yard shot” crowd.

IMO a “400-yard big game rifle” is a rifle that shoots as fast and as flat as you can possible handle. It needs to be sub MOA if not sub ½ MOA. It needs a bipod, and it needs a scope that’s target quality.  The shooter needs to be practiced at shooting 400 yards, not just sighting in a gun at 200 yards and moving the impact point up the target 2 inches.