cast bullet penetration

[andrewtheelder38]

about a month ago I was sighting in the assortment of deer hunting rifles my sons and i use, and i had a bunch of old and new handloads for the 45-70 handi rifle mostly with 385-500 grain cast bullets and i wanted to see how well cast bullets could penetrate...there was a bunch of junk wood nearby including some old railroad ties......well, at 5 to 10 yards all the cast bullets blasted right through those old creosote soaked beasts like they were sheets of typing paper...several different weights and manufacturers....interesting.

[Cottonwood]

andrewtheelder38

.45-70 at Two Miles: The Sandy Hook Tests of 1879 here is the test you may like to read done back in 1879 using black powder cartridge loads back then since smokeless was not invented yet.

With todays cast bullets it depends what hardness your using etc.  The 45-70 will penetrate the shoulders of a bull elk or bison bull or cow with no problem.  

Bullet design is the key as well as hardness.  A Remington 405-gr jsp will not penetrate like a hard cast will.

Great post topic by the way and welcome aboard  

[lonewolf5347]

JB: how well will the 405 FP soft cast do (BHN8) in front of 70 grains of BP out of the BC let say out to 150 yards.
JB: just a note everything went well with the loads in BP I loaded for the 45-70 BC
I sent you a pm saying thanks for all the help Rick

[quickdtoo]

Here's a bigbore handgun penetration test in wet newsprint that includes the 45-70....

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_158_26/ai_86704793

Cartridge..... Bullet.....Velocity.....Penetration

      .45-70        530 gr. hardcast lead   1,550 fps      55"
  .500 Linebaugh    495 gr. hardcast lead   1,270 fps      52"
.500 Nitro Express    570 gr. FMJ solid     2,000 fps      48"
  .458 Win. Mag.      500 gr. FMJ solid     2,260 fps      47"
  .475 Linebaugh     420 gr. LBT SWC lead   1,335 fps      47"
   .454 Casull       360 gr. honded core    1,500 fps      45"
     .45 Colt       350 gr. hardcast lead   1,400 fps      43"
  .500 Linebaugh        480 gr. Keith       1,200 fps      41"
  .475 Linebaugh     420 gr. LBT SWC lead   1,050 fps      40"
  .500 Linebaugh     435 gr. LBT SWC lead   1,270 fps      38"
     .45 Colt        300 gr. LBT SWC lead   1,180 fps      38"
     .45 Colt       310 gr. Keith SWC lead  1,250 fps      36"
  .500 Linebaugh     435 gr. LBT SWC lead   1,000 fps      34"
    .44 Magnum      250 gr. Keith SWC lead  1,200 fps      27"
    .480 Ruger           325 gr. XTP        1,350 fps      17"
______________________________________________________    

Here's what a 540gr hardcast will do to a 2000lb Bison..

"We followed fresh sign for a couple hours and finally spotted four large bulls bedded in the heavy timber. These Bison spend much of the time bedded on the edge of the timber and emerge to feed throughout the day. We positioned ourselves down-wind and got within 50 yards. We had to wait nearly 30 minutes for the animals to turn broadside before I could take a shot. I aimed for the lower left shoulder and, when I felt the offside was clear of any other animals; I sent one of your 540 grainers through his shoulder. The terminal performance of the 540 Hammerhead is unbelievable. The animal was quartering towards from me at about 45 degrees. The bullet shattered his shoulder, took out both lungs and exited. Upon further review, seven large pieces of his shoulder bone took out the top of his heart, while the bullet took out the rear portion of his lungs and two ribs on the way out.
Seeing such a large animal get slammed to the ground is something to behold!"

Jim Audette

_______________________________________________________

And here's a previous post on the 525gr Beartooth Piledriver...

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=70050&highlight=4570+penetration

[JPH45]

Well, there are people quoted here who make me look like less than a boil on the butt of......

In anycase, my back stop consists of pine log rounds that are 10-16" diameter and 20"-24" or so inches long. I shoot into them every day. It don't matter how hard or fast the load, I've never had a 45-70 bullet penetrate one of these lengthwise, unless the bullet struck the outer 2-3" of the log. But center strikes? Nothing doing. Don't happen. Doesn't happen with full power 38-55 265 grainers (read 375 Win level) and it don't happen with my neighbors 30-06 (Remington factory 150 grainers) and it don't happen with my 7-08 with 130's at 2700 fps either. All shots at 50 yards. I use these for back stops because they are readily available and I can burn out the lead and reuse it. (I shoot bunches of cast, at least 20 rounds a day))

People will probably either think me a liar or call me such, but before they do I challenge them to shoot into dryed Southern Yellow Pine logs just as I've described and see for themselves. I do this everyday, it is my common backstop and I know what the real truth is.

Lot of difference between a pine log and live animal. What I didn't speak to is how much the log is moved by each of these. The 38-55 and 45-70 obviously move the logs. (they are set on an oak log 20" diameter, 24" long) No other rifle moves them as these two do.

For shooting game there is little need for a bullet heavier than 400 grians and a hardness of 12 BHN for your 45-70 needs. Anything harder is a waste of your energy.

[Haywire Haywood]

The difference there is that you're shooting into the grain lengthwise rather than across the grain.

Another comparison is this, cut that log across the grain with a chainsaw and it'll zip thru, but stand that long on end and try to cut it in half lengthwise and the going will be a lot slower unless you have a chain specifically designed for the purpose.

Ian

[safetysheriff]

Well, there are people quoted here who make me look like less than a boil on the butt of......

In anycase, my back stop consists of pine log rounds that are 10-16" diameter and 20"-24" or so inches long. I shoot into them every day. It don't matter how hard or fast the load, I've never had a 45-70 bullet penetrate one of these lengthwise, unless the bullet struck the outer 2-3" of the log. But center strikes? Nothing doing. Don't happen.

People will probably either think me a liar or call me such, but before they do I challenge them to shoot into dryed Southern Yellow Pine logs just as I've described and see for themselves. I do this everyday, it is my common backstop and I know what the real truth is.

For shooting game there is little need for a bullet heavier than 400 grians and a hardness of 12 BHN for your 45-70 needs. Anything harder is a waste of your energy.

i think that if you shoot lengthwise into the above-noted lumber inside of its outer 2-3" periphery that you will be close enough to the heartwood that it makes all the difference in the world.    that's why so many 4x4 posts, railroad ties, and lumber for log homes contains the heartwood.  it is so much tougher.   i can believe jph' statements.......but am not sure they are relevant to penetration of north american game or some shots made at railroad ties if heartwood is not engaged shooting lengthwise.  

i posted once before that a hardcast lead of proper composition will penetrate like no tomorrow, so to speak.  that was questioned by some of the others.   although i have also referenced findarticles.com several times, and agree with tim's doing it now, i think dick metcalf's statement that he'd seen a .44 mag' penetrate a 13" hickory tree says just as much.  i no longer have that article, but it was one of his about the versatility of the .44 mag'.   i'll bet j.d. jones would back up metcalf's statements in that article.   so would paco kelly and randy garrett who have testified to  some phenomenal kills using a .44 mag'.   the .45-70 is capable of much more than a heavy-loaded .44 mag' revolver!    

i find jim audette's pic' and posting to be very much in line with the truth about the .45-70 being a Very Large Hammer!

take care,

ss'

[Awf Hand]

I did some shooting this past weekend with my recently built 32-40Win. Handi Rifle.  -The wife went on vacation, so I'll post those pics when she gets back with the camera-

The loading was 13.4 grains of H-4227 (as thrown by a lil dandy powder rotor #16) behind a 165 gr (25:1 Pb Sn mix -weighed 168.8gr) SAECO tapered flat point plain-based bullet.  I just used a Win LR primer and would WAG my velocity to be about 1400fps.

I retrieved the bullets from my green Box-Elder stop block after I was done.  I had fired the bullets into the end grain of the sawed block and all of the bullets I'd retrieved were at 8" deep, with two of the shots going in to 10-11 inches.  I expect that these followed a previous bullet's path for most of their trip.

My axe did squat to help break this block apart, as it was green and very stringy.

This was/is not a hot load.  It's amazing how much a lead bullet can do.

[JPH45]

How hard are the bullets you are using Awf Hand?

I finally became convinced that anything harder than 12 BHN is too hard for hunting. I came on this as a result of all the shooting of lead into logs, pine and oak I have done. What I found was that as I piled bullets on top of one another, the harder they were, the more they either broke up or acted like solids. I've recovered more than I can count that are in such good shape that taking measurements of the lands and grooves is a simple and repeatable endeavor.

There have been some reports of dual alloy bullets, in an effort ot have a kind of cast Partition,and that's probably an OK thing, but I doubt it is needed on a whitetail deer, an elk perhaps, but not a deer.

So I softened up some alloy, a lot. In fact I began with a lead/tin alloy that made a BHN of 8. I found that with FWFL (Felix World Famous Lube) I had no trouble driving this alloy to 1700 and 1900 fps from my 357 Max and 38-55 without leading.

Continued....

[JPH45]

What the 8 BHN bullets revealed was on piling up atop one another in the wood, the bullets deformed and bent up, but didn't break up like harder stuff.

But my supply of that alloy is small, so to streach it I mixed it 1 to 1 with wheel weights, and that yeilded an alloy of 10 BHN whihc performed the same as the softer alloy. It shoot exceedingly well, in fact better than harder metals I have used in my Handi barrels. I had no trouble reaching the full velocities I am able to drive the bullets at without leading, and they both penetrate well and will expand rather than break up. I've yet to test the metal on wet newsprint or water jugs, but my deer this past weekend tells the tale well enough.

To balance this, I killed 2 deer with my 44 anc cast bullets 2 seasons back. I was using an alloy of 1 to 1 WW and lead, which makes 15 BHN. One deer I shot showed the classic 44 caliber hole in and out, the second was shot low in the chest and the bullet was recovered trapped in the tendon of the off side elbow. The load was 11.4 grains of Blue Dot and clocked 1275, a dead ringer for Elmers favorite 44 velocity from a 4" barrel. That load is touted as being a really great killer, and it may be, but I hardly find a load that is stopped by a tendon after penetrating 8" of chest spectacular performance. I have the bullet, and except for the rifling engraving, shows no sign of having been fired. One could probably load it and shoot it again.

Continued.....

[JPH45]

To put this in perspective, lots of deer and even larger animals have been killed with hardcast 44's and 45's (Colt and Government) That doesn't mean that hardcast is the one and only answer to the penetration question.

A 30-30 will shoot through severla deer with linotype (21 BHN) if it don't break up, but there is no question, the stuff won't expand and won't reliably kill. Lot's of 30-30 cast hunters are using simple WW (13-15 BHN), 180 grain bullets and velocities of about 1900 fps with exellent results.

The 45-70 will likely perform well on animals up to 1500 pounds no matter what alloy is used. A very good case ahs been made and is proven over and again, that with enough frontal area, expansion is a moot point, and likely so is penetration as a 400 grian bulelt at 1600 fps will penetrate any whitetail lengthwise at any reasonable hunting shot distance.

Continued...

[JPH45]

To wrap up, in my first post on this thread it was not my intention to imply that I know more than others. Rather it was my intent then and now to say "All that sounds good but it don't entirely jive with my experience somehow" I don't doubt the wet newsprint penetration tests, I've done enough of that to know that it is measureable and repeatable and it will give an exellent idea of how a bullet will or will not expand. I don't think it is a good medium to compare penetration of flesh against, but it is better than some others I can think of like wood. My 38-55 will penetrate 6-8" of pine at 50 yards, but shot completely through at least 12" of a 120 pound deer at 35 yards. As a note, the exit showed no sign of expansion. I figure the bone fragments from the three broken ribs did as much internal damage as the bullet itself did. Yet on the doe I liver shot with my 44, the liver was torn in half and she died about 60 yards from where I shot her. And the spike I shot last year with a 405 grain pure lead bullet at 1225 fps, required a second shot to kill as the bullet struck the forward edge of the front leg bone, broke it and exited the lower throat. Had the bullet penetrated straight through it would have exited the mid ribs. Too soft a bullet on that shot resulted in a deflected bullet, too hard and it would have shattered. (But there was enough bullet at 405 grains to sacrifice at least half and still have a heavy bullet to penetrate)

I don't yet ahve any hard conclusions except that a quality jacketed bullet likely has some strong advantages over a cast bullet;mainly that it will perform predictably over a broad range of velocities and impacts, and it is what happens when the bullet hits that counts. I remain an advocate of the "It is WHERE you hit 'em that counts most."

[safetysheriff]

How hard are the bullets you are using Awf Hand?

I finally became convinced that anything harder than 12 BHN is too hard for hunting. I came on this as a result of all the shooting of lead into logs, pine and oak I have done.
Continued....

with a proper composition, with an alloy that is harder than 12 bhn, but less likely to fracture, a harder bullet is easily proper.  randy garrett and some others do not use the quantity of antimony that many casters do.   his bullets are advertised at 25 BHN!   look at what they did at John Linebaugh's testing during one of their seminars....without breaking up.    go to www.garrettcartridges.com/q&a.asp and you can read how tough his Very Hard bullets really are....and how they react differently.

i think that there is a lot of misunderstanding here re: 'hardness' and fracturing/failing of bullets.

i'm only trying to fill in the gaps.

ss'

[dodd3]

i have shot two bull camels with my 155 shikari 45/70 520 grn pure lead bullet over 70 grn fff black both shots were 120 meters and 145 meters total penetration on both animals both dropped on the spot they are a big animal in any ones eyes  never had a prob with using pure lead bullets.  
bernie

[safetysheriff]

d'3

Sam Fadala wrote several years ago of a .54 cal roundball, of pure lead, going all the way through a big bull buffalo and knocking a hunk of rib out the far side.   that pure lead never fractured -- because pure lead, or a proper alloy of lead is very, very cohesive.  

i have no doubts about what you are saying re: a pure lead projectile, but wish that pure lead could be 'launched' at higher velocities without it melting and sticking to the rifling in a bore.

by the way, do you guys eat camel?   i honestly don't know if they're eaten!

take care,

ss'

[dodd3]

ss yes camel stakes are good eating  i shot a young bull water buffalo up north in 1984 with my navy arms .58 buffalo  hunter muzzle loader using a 625 grn mini bullet i got full penetration through the scull front to rear the mini bullet stoped under the hide at the back of the scull only lost 5grns in bullet weight.pure lead keeps together it just seems to fold into its self i still have the bullet.  
he was full grown in the body but still had some growing to do in the horn,but he was good eating. i use a 20 to 1 lead tin mix now in my buff classic  with the lee 500r bullet  and rooster red bp7 lube at a little over 1500 fps get no leading it is a very good lube.
bernie :wink:

[safetysheriff]

d'3'

i half expected you to say that you threw out the camel and ate the saddle!
but, i can't knock it, because i've never tried it!

when you think of a .54 cal' round ball of approx' .53 to .535" diameter weighing approx' 230 to 240 gr's (as i remember, not having shot one lately) it's easy to understand that it starts out with a lot of power when heavily loaded.   but the way lead, and some lead alloy, holds together is what really impresses me.   it's got to be a real treat to knock over a buffalo with a smokepole......and then find a hunk of far-side rib knocked out of it by a round ball like Fadala did!

keep up the camel cuisine!

best regards,

ss'

[dodd3]

ss this is a pic of the water buff horns and the navy arms buffalo hunter .58 muzzle loader the one at the bottom of pic. sadly i had it stolen never did get it back.
bernie  
 

[safetysheriff]

d'3'

i'm sorry to hear about the theft of such a fine piece of memorabilia.   yeah, i know it's a rifle, but it must have brought back good memories a lot of times when you look at a decent trophy wall like that one was.   i'm sorry.

there is one nice consolation, however, with you still having the horns from that buff' -- they are a Grand animal and are so much bigger full-grown than the cape buffalo that we hear about all the time.  it's quite an accomplishment to have put one down like you did.

hey........you've had those horns for 19 years now!   you ready to do it again?     something to think about.......

take care,

ss'

[Awf Hand]

Hi Safety Sheriff!

If I had to make a guess about the hardness of the bullets that I'm using, I'd say they may be about a 5-7bhn.  They are quite soft.

From what I've seen of cast lead bullets, the softer they are, the larger pieces I will find of them after impacting a solid or semi-solid target.  The softer bullets act a bit more like chewing gum while the harder bullets act like hard candy on impact.

I'm not a hunter, but given my 'drothers, I would shoot a slower, heavy, softer bullet instead of a faster, lighter, harder bullet on thin-skinned critters.  I know on silhouettes the "hardball"  92-6-2 (I think) Pb from Dillon just turns to dust on impact.  This from a 308Win driven to about 1900fps.

[Awf Hand]

Sorry SS, that last reply should've been addressed to JHP45. :oops:
No harm done, I suppose.

I dunno how to edit my posts and my server is running veeeeeerrrrrrrryyyyyy slow tonight.

Later,

[safetysheriff]

awf'

while i understand what you're saying, there are plenty of accounts of proper hardcast alloy that don't fragment.   i've seen enough to know that it is possible to achieve phenomenal penetration either way.

for deer, antelope, and caribou -- all soft-skinned game -- i'd recommend a lightweight, high-velocity, jacketed bullet just like roy weatherby said.  i've seen it done, and they kill quickly when properly placed.

for black bear, elk, and moose i'd recommend heavier, medium velocity jacketed bullets that will expand but not shed their jackets.   at medium impact velocities the animal's lungs can be reached and they can be killed more reliably without someone getting a chance to tag your game.   obviously, with a faster, magnum velocity you want to use the heaviest bullets on larger animals of the species above to cause a quick kill.  

for varmints it depends upon whether you want the furs or not..........

[BAGTIC]

<wish that pure lead could be 'launched' at higher velocities without it melting and sticking to the rifling in a bore. >

It is unlikely that your pure lead bullets are sticking to the bore because they are melting. IIRC, pure lead actually has a higher melting point than many of the lead alloys traditionally used for bullets (linotype, etc.). If the lead was actually melting the liquid lead would almost certainly be blown out the barrel along with the bullet and burned powder. What is actually happening is that the pure lead is soft and weak and is being scraped off the bullet and being plastered against the bore.

The surface of the bore is about 50/50 land and groove. If the lead were liquified  it is probable that 50% of the leading would settle on the top of the lands. I have yet to see a leaded barrel that matched that criterion.

[slayer]

Ver good stuuf here. I have a BC and am trying the PMC Cowboy 405 load. This is a medium velocity load. Are these pure lead bullets in these? Are they lubed with anything? I am kinda concerned about leading, but ma more concerned about penetration and deflection, especially if you hit the leg bone and it deflects down. I am hoping this bullet if it hits the shoulder bone or a little lower will still go straight thru? Thank you-Jack.

[lonewolf5347]

Jack: I have loaded the BC with 65 grains of BP using soft cast 20:1 mix with no leading at all.I was told I could use smokeless with these soft cast as long as I keep my FPS under 1400 .I ordered some .458 in 405 FP for the the 45-70 Hey if you would like to try a few be glad to send you some.
I have a helpfull hand from a guy over in WV. just sent me some .459 but being winter time ,looks like I have to waite for spring to give them a try.
I also have a guy who sell soft cast and hard if you like his web site?

[John Boy]

Andrew, here is a pictorial example of what cast bullet foot pounds of forces can do ... http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot4.htm
That's about 2.3 tons at the muzzle

[John Boy]

Typo ... that's 1.3 tons!