Author Topic: defected part (and RTV forend Bedding) (Read 9918 times)

lostsniper308 · « **on:** October 27, 2005, 03:09:32 PM »

Now when i bought my Ultra .308 i put rounds in and upon chambering the case skeedadled past the ejector. It still does that today, but i noticed both my .17 and my nieghbors .243 all the rounds chambered are stopped at the rim by the ejector.
Is my ejector messed up? i tried hold the rifle to a point where the ejector does stop the case and it locks up much nicer. I can tolerate this at the range but in a fast reload during hunting i can't slow up to ensure the ejector has caught the case rim.

trotterlg · « **Reply #1 on:** October 27, 2005, 05:18:47 PM »

The round should never go past the ejector, and closing the rifle with the round past the ejector is a bad thing. On rimfire rifles the ejector cannot move down to allow the round to fall in past the ejector, just the way the ejector is shaped prevents this. On a rimless cartridge the ejector has to be able to move down so the cartridge can slide in and then be caught by the ejector in the grove in the case. My .223 has a fairly strong upward push against the cartridge when I slide one in, so I would expect the same from your .308. I would see if the ejector is being sprung up against the round when you put it in, if not then something is wrong. Larry

lostsniper308 · « **Reply #2 on:** October 27, 2005, 05:35:41 PM »

i didn't quite get what you meant but i'll describe what happens. Ok when i chamber a round into a fully open action that is just 'hanging' open from the barrel's wieght, i put a round in and it just slides right by.
However if hold the barrel so the ejector is posisioned to catch the round then it'll catch and hold up to lockup.

yea when it's fully open the ejector is held down some so i cannot grab the rim, but holding the action up a bit lets the ejector grab the rim.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #3 on:** October 27, 2005, 06:39:36 PM »

Quote

The round should never go past the ejector, and closing the rifle with the round past the ejector is a bad thing.

No...it's not a bad thing...Only on rimmed cartridges like the 45-70 and 30-30...and maybe on the rimfires...but every rimless barrel I've ever owned this is perfectly normal...my 2-25-06...my 3-270's..my 3-308's..my 3-30-06's..my 35 Whelen...and on my 338-06(ala 25-06 rebored barrel)...the ejectors are positioned to hang down low to allow this to happen and on closing they ride up and into the extraction groove....only on my 45-70 & 30-30 does it stop on the rim...

Mac

Fred M · « **Reply #4 on:** October 28, 2005, 05:17:50 PM »

Mac.
You are right. This is not only normal but the ejector is designed that way to allow for free unobstructed loading. How else would you know if the cartridge is sticking out or is flush or too far in.

The bottom of the ejector has a concave to allow it to drop after the case is ejected. Closing the action the the ejector rides up on the concave until it engages the the ejector groove in the case head and is then locked in by the straight portion of the ejector.

A very ingenious and simple concept with perfect timing by a two bit concave. I really admire the ingineering.

You are not supposed to push the ejector in with the case. You can only do that with a dirt build up. Keep the thing clean and it will work as it supposed too.

When changing an ejector from 223 to 257R as I did, you need to make sure to get the post ground down to the exact highth, to little and the ejctor will hang up, too much and the ejector wont eject.

I needed to do this because the new 06 type I ordered did not fit because it takes a deeper seat. ( milling job)

It seams the more simple a system the less it is understood.

trotterlg · « **Reply #5 on:** October 28, 2005, 06:01:45 PM »

Fred M: I think you are wrong on this one. My center fire rifles work exactly like the rimfire rifles, with the rifle fully open the extractor catches the round in the extractor groove and then lowers the round into the chamber when the rifle is closed. In the rimfire rifles the extractor/ejector is not allowed to be pushed down as the rimless ones are, but the function is exactly the same with the round being lowered by the extractor. The extractor is closed by the standing breach when the rifle is closed, the round, both rimmed and rimless, never pushes the extractor in as the extractor is pushed in before the standing breach touches the rear of the round. On the rimless version the extractor is spring loaded up against the round so it automatically engages the extractor groove when the round is loaded. If the extractor were allowed to close on top of the rear of the round it would be very bad. Rossi Single shot rifles also load rimless rounds this way. Guess this calls for a poll. Larry

lostsniper308 · « **Reply #6 on:** October 28, 2005, 06:11:04 PM »

i think loading the rifle with the ejector 'holding' the case is better for my gun cause it closes much nicer with a more positive 'click' of lockup. When i let the case slip pass and close the action it feels like the ejector is being forced by the chambered round and nicking the rim a bit. And a .243 is rimless as far as i know.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #7 on:** October 28, 2005, 06:20:32 PM »

I just checked several of mine, the ejectors on the rimmed cartridges catch the loaded cartridge and stay in the same position against the rim and depress when the action is closed. The rimless cartridges on the ejectors drops down below the rim when the action is opened fully and the cartridge enters the chamber completely. The extractor on rimless cartridges(.204 and .22-250) acts just like the rimmed ejector, it holds the cartridge out until the action is closed. Rimfire extractors act as the rimmed centerfire do.

Soooooo......

Rimmed ejectors don't drop down out of the way, cartridge seats against ejector when loading.

Rimless ejectors do drop down out of the way, cartridge seats entirely in chamber.

Rimless extractors don't drop down out of the way, cartridge seats against extractor when loading.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #8 on:** October 28, 2005, 06:32:03 PM »

Quote

Fred M: I think you are wrong on this one. My center fire rifles work exactly like the rimfire rifles,

As I said earlier...you are the one mistaken...if your rifles are doing this..then you have a problem with yours.The ejector fits in the extractor groove on the case when the action is fully closed on the semi-rimmed cartridge.This is how the ejector latches in on the notch...and why when you have the barrel off and push the ejector all the way in it stays in..untill you lift on the ejector latch pin...It is exactly as Fred has described..if your ejector is staying in the up position..then the small coned shaped ejector latch spring of yours is either hanging up..or broken,another way it can hang up..is if someone has filed down the ejector latch on the radius in hopes of making it a extractor instead of filing off the notch on the ejector itself...this is what I ran into with my 270 Ultra-Comp...I ordered all the correct parts and replaced the ruined ones and haven't had a bit of problem since...This is how they are designed to work...sheese..call NEF and ask them...or better yet..take yours apart and see for yourself..You can order this spring from either the factory or from Brownells...the part number from Brownells is #427-501-696...

Mac

Fred M · « **Reply #9 on:** October 28, 2005, 06:44:30 PM »

Tim
That makes sense because the the extractor wont have an ejector spring. The rack and pinion system extractor does not induce resistance and just retracts as the action is closed.. I don't have a rimmed cartridge Handi and I don't have the new extractor either.

I was strictly talking rimless ejectors which I don't mind at all.

lostsniper308 · « **Reply #10 on:** October 29, 2005, 04:46:12 AM »

ok im not saying y'all are wrong but the .243 i used is too old to have an extractor and i've used it and it is in fact a ejector and it catchs the rim of these rimless cases.
As i said before this way on my .308 seems nicer to do and locks with a more positive note. And again when i let it pass by the ejector seems to snap over the case like chambering a round in a bolt action rifle without the claw having caught the rim.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #11 on:** October 29, 2005, 05:59:31 AM »

The ejector on a rimless round will fail to drop down and will catch the rim IF you don't open the action all the way to its limit. It could also be hung up due to burrs, dirt or a broken/missing ejector latch spring.

trotterlg · « **Reply #12 on:** October 29, 2005, 06:19:46 AM »

In both of my .223 barrels the ejector will catch the groove in the case when a round is loaded even with the barrel removed from the frame. They both load and lock up easily. Larry

JPH45 · « **Reply #13 on:** October 29, 2005, 06:43:30 PM »

You guys are arguing about a problem that NEf addressed with the mechanical extractor. What you are seeing is a difference between how the ejectors on different guns, manufactured at different times, are sprung. Originally, NEF was making the ejector with a single spring, but it would not always lift up to catch the rim groove of a rimless cartridge. I have seen examples of these of that the case drug on the ejector and others that the ejector was 1/16" to 1/8" below the case on closing. The real question is does the case eject? In an attempt to fix ejectors that did not do the job, NEF began to put in two springs, then changed to a stronger single spring, but this was no always effective. The real solution was the mechanical extractor that NEF fitting barrels with this year.

SO, you will find extractors that don't touch the case before closing and ejectors that do touch the case before closing. Again the question is does it eject? If so, there is no defect, as the defect is the ejection or lack of, not when the ejector slips into the groove of a rimless cartridge.

On a rimmed cartridge, the ejector simply moves forward and aft. the Ejector on a rimless cartridge has a different action and will also move up and down so that it will catch the groove. If it didn't, it either wouldn't catche the groove, or it wouldn't allow a cartridge to be inserted into the chamber.

NEF seems to have addresed most of this problem, now if we could just get them to use better barrels.

lostsniper308 · « **Reply #14 on:** October 29, 2005, 06:47:02 PM »

quick yea i watched the movement of my ejector and it does drop from the cases path when fully open. So maybe the .243 did have a bit of dirt or something, the owner dosen't know about this site or how finiky handis are so its completely un messed with,
Then the ejector is designed to snap over the rim when locking up?

Mac11700 · « **Reply #15 on:** October 29, 2005, 09:35:40 PM »

Quote

ou guys are arguing about a problem that NEf addressed with the mechanical extractor. What you are seeing is a difference between how the ejectors on different guns, manufactured at different times, are sprung.

Actually no...every Handi I've owned have 2 springs in them...1 for the actual ejection...and 1 for holding down the ejector latch to allow the ejector to drop off the notch and expell the cartridge...they work in unison for the ejector to function properly.Old and new barrel have them...the difference between the older style barrels is on the older ones..they have a recess built into the barrel lug for the spring to fit in...the newer models have a ejector lifter button... part Brownells part # 427-400-461

ls308...the ejector doesn't snap over anything..it rides up behind the rim of a rimmed cartridge...and into the extractor groove on a rimmless cartridge...

Mac

lostsniper308 · « **Reply #16 on:** October 30, 2005, 04:03:47 AM »

ok Mac. Point here is that nothing is wrong with my rifle this is how it was designed.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #17 on:** October 30, 2005, 08:11:19 AM »

Right On...now all you have to do is to float barrel in the forearm...and do somekind of bedding on it...if you don't like the o-ring that is...The RTV silicon I used is really nice...if you don't like it..it comes out easy enough...just use a good release agent on all the metal parts..forearm screw too.. and on the tape you put inside the forearm to contain the silicon..squeeze in a fair amount so you have good coverage in the notch too...and when you tighten the barrel down it will ooze up around the barrel and out...wipe it off right then and wait till it dries...with the release agent on the barrel...it wipes off real easy...you can put a spacer up in front of the forearm say..a couple buisness cards...and tighten it down...leave it sit over nite..and you get something like this...

It helps...and it's not difficult to do...just cover everything on the forearm you don't want the silcon on with tape and release agent...and apply the release agent to all of the metal parts up high on the sides of the barrel too...I used the blue stuff from Brownells...other folks use car paste wax...or even Pam...just as long as you got everything covered and coated...and don't forget the barrel stud on the inside...I coated it too with release agent...and stuck a cut off q-tip upinside to keep out the silicon.....that's the trick...here's the link to the picture above...http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=74863

Good Luck

Mac

lostsniper308 · « **Reply #18 on:** October 30, 2005, 08:50:49 AM »

Quote from: Mac11700

Right On...now all you have to do is to float barrel in the forearm...and do somekind of bedding on it...if you don't like the o-ring that is...The RTV silicon I used is really nice...if you don't like it..it comes out easy enough...just use a good release agent on all the metal parts..forearm screw too.. and on the tape you put inside the forearm to contain the silicon..squeeze in a fair amount so you have good coverage in the notch too...and when you tighten the barrel down it will ooze up around the barrel and out...wipe it off right then and wait till it dries...with the release agent on the barrel...it wipes off real easy...you can put a spacer up in front of the forearm say..a couple buisness cards...and tighten it down...leave it sit over nite..and you get something like this...

It helps...and it's not difficult to do...just cover everything on the forearm you don't want the silcon on with tape and release agent...and apply the release agent to all of the metal parts up high on the sides of the barrel too...I used the blue stuff from Brownells...other folks use car paste wax...or even Pam...just as long as you got everything covered and coated...and don't forget the barrel stud on the inside...I coated it too with release agent...and stuck a cut off q-tip upinside to keep out the silicon.....that's the trick...here's the link to the picture above...http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=74863

Good Luck

Mac

yea i was planning on bedding the barrel much like that but following Perklo's directions with his super lite, as far as bedding and coverage but otherwise the same.

But i may follow yours tho it really depends on which bedding material i can get easiest. How did yours come out so flush and fit, nice straight edges where the bedding begins/ends?

Mac11700 · « **Reply #19 on:** October 30, 2005, 07:19:14 PM »

I used electricians tape..it was easy...2 long pices down both sides where I wanted the bedding to end..2 pieces on each end ...coated the tape with release agent ( 2 complete coats)...once it dried after 24hours..the tape pulled right off and the excess silicon with it...I had only 1 little spot where it ozzed under the tape...and I scraped that off with my finger nail...you can see it in the picture on the forearm spacer (lower right side) if you look close enough...The Permatex RTV silicon gasket material I got at AutoZone..it was about $4.00 with tax..it's the Blue color..the copper colored isn't as flexable...The way a few of us look at it...if the o-ring helps ...this will too...your really making a large form fitted flexable gasket...like I said...this was a real easy project...the hardest part was sanding out the forearm channel evenly and using a dremal tool to remove all the Acraglass bedding material...I used a 1" oak dowel wrapped in various grits of sand paper...and work the whole channel till I had where I wanted it...wiped it down...put on the tape and release agent..put in the caulk...and tighted it down...it work out pretty darn good...

Mac

lostsniper308 · « **Reply #20 on:** October 31, 2005, 06:33:22 AM »

i don't dare start anything with deer season so close so after that i'll begin bedding my rifle.

mtbugle · « **Reply #21 on:** April 03, 2009, 10:01:46 PM »

I decided to rtv bed the forearm on my handi. When the hour till dry was up the rtv still seemed wet, so I decided to go to bed and pull it apart in morning. Well of course I could not pull the barrel free. While at work for the day I surmised that it was not glued together as I had greesed the barrel pretty good with assembly lube, it must just be acting like a large suction cup. When returning from work I took a short length of 3# fishing line and slid down the barrel to break the suction while having a little pull on the forearm. Worked like a charm without any undue force needed. I used the copper colored rtv on my cinamin laminate stock. hope this helps someone else who may have same problem in future. Thanks Don.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #22 on:** April 04, 2009, 02:29:44 AM »

Thanks Don, I will file that info away for future use....<><....

quickdtoo · « **Reply #23 on:** April 04, 2009, 05:24:34 AM »

Great idea Don, I've added your thread to the RTV bedding thread in the FAQs.

Thanks,

Tim

Buster95 · « **Reply #24 on:** April 04, 2009, 10:41:53 AM »

A stupid question from me (another one $:-\$ ) why use RTV a rubber and not ordinary bedding compound or hard epoxy?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #25 on:** April 04, 2009, 11:27:02 AM »

Cuz it's cheap, easy to work with and it can be removed easily if you change your mind.....and it works!!

It's just another alternative.

Tim

Buster95 · « **Reply #26 on:** April 04, 2009, 11:47:52 AM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on April 04, 2009, 11:27:02 AM

Cuz it's cheap

Cheap!!! Last time I bought RTV it was in a one pound can and I paid $30 for it!!!! What kind of RTV the one with a hardener?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #27 on:** April 04, 2009, 01:00:43 PM »

I don't like to reply to a thread without reading all of it, sometimes I miss stuff tho, but you should spend a little more time reading in the FAQs since this is an FAQs thread, has been for about 3½yrs.

Tim

Quote from: Mac11700 on October 30, 2005, 07:19:14 PM

I used electricians tape..it was easy...2 long pices down both sides where I wanted the bedding to end..2 pieces on each end ...coated the tape with release agent ( 2 complete coats)...once it dried after 24hours..the tape pulled right off and the excess silicon with it...I had only 1 little spot where it ozzed under the tape...and I scraped that off with my finger nail...you can see it in the picture on the forearm spacer (lower right side) if you look close enough...The Permatex RTV silicon gasket material I got at AutoZone..it was about $4.00 with tax..it's the Blue color..the copper colored isn't as flexable...The way a few of us look at it...if the o-ring helps ...this will too...your really making a large form fitted flexable gasket...like I said...this was a real easy project...the hardest part was sanding out the forearm channel evenly and using a dremal tool to remove all the Acraglass bedding material...I used a 1" oak dowel wrapped in various grits of sand paper...and work the whole channel till I had where I wanted it...wiped it down...put on the tape and release agent..put in the caulk...and tighted it down...it work out pretty darn good...

Mac

mtbugle · « **Reply #28 on:** April 04, 2009, 06:33:55 PM »

I am using rtv because I am attempting to get my one forearm to have a good vibration reducing bedded fit for each and all of the 6 barrels fit to that frame. My tactic is to use the flexibility of the rtv to compensate for slight differences in barrel diameter. I used a steel washer to act as a consistant piller type of stop for the barrel contured part of the welded stud nut.(this component seems one of the most consistant from barrel lower wall points for contact. I also filed off the little circle to smooth the surfaces consistantly. The 4 corners are slithtly puckered also so may have to file them flush depth with rest of barrel conture of stud nut.) The washer is JB welded to stock and JB weld bedding for the barrel contured part of welded stud nut on barrel. I left about 1/4 inch between the notch cut in forearm and start of rtv bedding fore and aft of stud nut. I ran rtv bedding all way aft to hinge, and foward to about 3/4 inch short of front of forearm, and up sides to about 1/8 inch short of top of stock. After the rtv finishes shrinking for a week or two I plan to rebed with about .oo8 of inche shim (double thickness of beverage of choice) under stud lug to give a slight compression on rtv for vibration damping on the smallest diameter of my barrels. this will have slightly more compression on the other barrels, but not too much hopefully. I am also hopefull that this consistant bedding well foward of sling stud will alleviate bipod problems as trying to balance near hinge is unwieldly for me. I hope that the copper rtv I used is not too hard,(thought closest color to the cinamin stock) maybe for final squishy I should utilize the blue? Perhaps some of you who have used the rtv in past can weigh in on this? I would definetly appreciate feedback from the experienced bedding hands(handies?) as to if I have missed anything or if you have already seen this approach or parts of it fail.
Thanks Don.

necchi · « **Reply #29 on:** February 13, 2011, 04:03:27 AM »

I just wanted to add a photo here of a variation I've successfully done with RTV silicon.

I had a little play in the forearm at the hinge area when locked up. I just used RTV to bed the area instead of the accraglas or epoxies listed in other bedding instructions. No release agent was needed.
On the forearm I used Scotch tape to set up a perimeter for the silicon and all I did was wrap the areas of the barrel and frame with a single layer of Sahran wrap and set everything aside for 24hrs to dry.
All excess silicone comes off with the tape and if your not happy the silicon will scrap/rub off with a thumbnail.
The bedded area near the lug does the same thing as the "O" ring fix and in conjunction with the set screw is worry free. If I need to pull the forearm, it always goes back in the same position and with the same pressure everytime.
This set-up removed the slop and eliminates any possible vibration resulting from a loose forearm fit.

p.s. I use dedicated forearms for each barrel