Author Topic: Did somebody say penetration??? (Read 2095 times)

NimrodRx · « **on:** October 11, 2005, 04:37:57 PM »

Felt compelled to share the results of a shot I put on a doe last night at 15 yrds. Here's my setup - 26" arrow, 125 gr 2 blade Magnus Stinger with bleeder blades, 230 fps, 430 gr total arrow weight.

The doe was quartering away from me at a very hard angle, probably about 30 degrees. I put the pin six inches in front of her back leg, about mid way up the body and released. I hit exactly where I was aiming. The arrow passed through her guts, stomach, liver, into the lungs, and then out her throat :eek: . She ran about 25 yrds and fell over dead. Approximately 8 inches of the flethed end of my arrow remained sticking out of her neck - just above the brisket.

I've been shooting Magnus for years. Can't remember the last time I didn't get a pass through. However, this is my first pass through length wise. If you're concerned about penetration, you owe it to yourself to forget about all the marketing whoopla and get back to a cut on contact two blade head. They fly like field points and have a life time guarentee. Slammed one into a rock during turkey season and had a replacement shipped to me within a week. Good hunting.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #1 on:** October 11, 2005, 05:17:54 PM »

Now that is penetration.

NONYA · « **Reply #2 on:** October 11, 2005, 06:27:25 PM »

Almost any blade will penetrate like that when you take a poor angle shot,I have seen a 4 blade tip go in the front of an elks chest and exit through the pauch,When you dont hit any bone or large muscle tissue it does not slow an arrow as much as a well placed shot will.

NimrodRx · « **Reply #3 on:** October 11, 2005, 06:39:13 PM »

Poor angle? I've always considered a quartering away archery shot favorable to a broad-side shot - angle it forward into the vitals. Grantid, this was extreme, but she was close. Frankly, I don't know how I could have placed that shot any better?

NONYA · « **Reply #4 on:** October 11, 2005, 10:15:33 PM »

Any shot where you have to pass through the stomach and/or intestines before you hit any vital organs is a poor shot,nothing is cleaner than a broadside heart or double lung shot.With a shot like you took there is a very good chance the arrow will turn and miss the vitals all together leaving a gutshot animal running around that will die a very long painful death,we owe it to the animals we hunt to take clean shots and quartering away through the stomach is not one.

NimrodRx · « **Reply #5 on:** October 12, 2005, 04:02:46 AM »

I will have to respectfully disagree. While I have seen mechanical heads turn or "kick around" upon impacting a hard angle, I have never known this to be the case with a two blade cut on contact head. They simply keep going. If I'm confident I have a clear path to the vitals (no bone), that's a clean shot - regardless if I have to aim so far back as to first go through the paunch.

You say there is a "very good chance" the arrow will turn. What kind of setups have you seen this with? I'm curious if others have experienced the same. I'm always happy to learn something new. My experience just doesn't support it.

NimrodRx · « **Reply #6 on:** October 12, 2005, 07:21:04 PM »

"Almost any blade will penetrate like that when you take a poor angle shot"

"With a shot like you took there is a very good chance the arrow will turn and miss the vitals all together leaving a gutshot animal"

These two statements seem almost contradictory. Please explain, which is it? What am I missing?

NONYA · « **Reply #7 on:** October 12, 2005, 11:25:11 PM »

OK Nimrod just keep shooting your animals through the guts whatever works for you...

harvester · « **Reply #8 on:** October 13, 2005, 04:08:44 AM »

boy, nonya, that argument fell apart quite quickly. i was curious about that little juxtaposition as well..

here's my take..

i'll cite the Natal Broadhead Study performed by Dr. Ashby. according to his data:

- 51.5% of shots tested in the neck/shoulder junction were lethal. however, when broadhead design was considered, the results were strikingly revealing: when 2 blade cut on contact heads were used, 85% of the hits were lethal (17 out of 20). when multi-blade heads were used (3 and 4 blade heads) 0% were lethal - all 16 shots failed to penetrate.

- in fact, you're as likely (51%) to inflict a lethal wound upon an animal with a rump shot, as you are with the neck/shoulder shot. its dependent upon whether the arrow sufficiently penetrates to cut the femoral artery/iliac vessels just deep of the femur.

- overall, only 70% of the shots taken broadside in the shoulder/chest area proved lethal. 100% of those shots were lethal when a 2 blade head was used AND it encountered a rib, while only 58.5% of those shots were lethal when a multi-blade head encountered a rib.

- 16 of 20 shots that hit the scapula (shoulder blade) with 2 blade heads were lethal. only 3 shots with multi-blade heads hit the scapula. none were lethal, or penetrated the scapula.

- vertebral column hits: there were 12 hits to the backbone with 2 blade heads. 10 of them severed the spinal chord. of those 10 hits, 6 penetrated the scapula prior to encountering the backbone. one hit rib prior. 9 multiblade heads hit the vertebral column. 0 of them severed the spinal chord.

- 24 of 25 shots taken at quartering away animals were lethal. that's 96%

Dr. Ashby concludes that the quartering towards, neck/shoulder juction shot is the least likely shot to provide a lethal wound. the quartering away shot is the most lethal. proven. what's left to debate here? whether you had to pass through the viscera prior to reaching the thorax? isn't that a little trivial at this point?

nice shot nimrodrx. if i had one complaint, it would be that you have a smaller kill zone at the extreme angle, than a gentle quartering away shot would provide. nonetheless, you obviously hit it well.. and you're shooting the right style of broadhead for sure.

Rmouleart · « **Reply #9 on:** October 13, 2005, 08:36:55 AM »

Hi guys, took a nice doe with the bow, I wrote a little about how it
Went and attached a picture as well, hope all is well.
Last Sunday around 06:00 Sept25, 2005 took a fifty-five yard shot, might be sixty Yards, clear of sight up hill at a nice adult doe, she was cresting the Field on top and I was on the brook bottom, I walk down the brook to
Quite my entrance to the forest, like the native Indians did, after
Crossing the brook. There is a road. An old logging road kind of grown in
Leads to the field, I stopped to take a look around, and then I spotted
Movement, I see the doe cross the opening to the logging road, and she
Looks down at my direction, I stayed still, and then she continued to walk
Around the fringe, I see a opening good enough for a clear shot, then
She stops in it, I drew and aimed and let it fly, I hear a loud cracking
Sound, like someone broke a big branch, then she blew spun around in a
Circle and headed for the ridge, she jumped the wall and ran down the
Ridge, like nothing was wrong with her, but then I herd crashing at the
Base of the ridge, well I thought to my self I either hit her or a
Branch I did not see, so I waited about twenty minuets due to it was
Getting dark fast, I got to the spot I shot at her, did not find blood
Right away, until I went over the wall, then it looked like paint cans
Of blood was thrown from one side to the other of the deer path, then I
Knew she was hit good, found her at the bottom about sixty yards down the Ridge, I knew I better get gutting, it was almost dark now and under the Tree line it was, so I called a friend to meet me to help drag her out,
I was not sure if there was a pass through, so when I opened her up. I
Used my knife to feel around for the broad head incase it snapped off in
Side her, boy that would cut you up; when I turned her over I could see
The exit wound, then I knew the arrow passed through, my friend Wayne
Came just in time to drag her out, she was all dressed out, we dragged
Her to the fields edge, then I got my jeep and drove it across the
Field and mounted her to the roof racks for safe travel, bungee her up
Good, I was using a Pierson Spoiler at 85pds with a overdraw, 28 inch
2215 eastons, 125gr Bear claw broad heads, freeflight release, fiber optic
Illuminated bead sight, zero to sixty yards she is dead on, good to go. Came Back the next day to find the arrow, forty yards beyond where I passed Through the deer, I had to do a CSI to find it though it was not easy, I Tried to figure the trajectory of the flight of the arrow after the pass Through the deers shoulder and out the left front shoulder, it worked,
the arrow was stuck in the ground pretty good and The fletching was flat down to the shaft, and covered with blood. There Are many deer in this small area, really too many doe's, I counted early Season twenty does, so I did not feel bad shooting some table fair, now Im back to trophy hunting; there is a huge 12 pointer and a good ten in The area, but the season is early and still on the warm side, the bucks Are slower to react till the cold snap hits, thats when I use drags and Mock scrapes to get the bucks going, it works every year. Oh bye the way The doe dressed out at 150 pds good size doe around five years old in Great condition, the shot was behind the shoulder and exited at the Other shoulder(frontal). I will attach a picture as well. Take care my friends

myronman3 · « **Reply #10 on:** October 13, 2005, 01:38:31 PM »

Quote

...Almost any blade will penetrate like that when you take a poor angle shot...

i dont know what planet you are living on, but a quartering away shot is one of the best shots to take. the only downside is you might catch the guts and make your job of field dressing a tad harder. the two shots i dream of is broadside and quartering away. the ribs help guide the broadhead to the vitals. :shock: wicked.

NONYA · « **Reply #11 on:** October 13, 2005, 02:32:45 PM »

The planet I live on is called reality,and if you will argue that a quatering away shot through the stomach is as good or better than a broadside double lung /heart shot you must be living on the planet named confused.I have seen that quartering away shot go bad when an arrow turns and exits before it enters the vitals on elk,leading to a lost/wounded/wasted animal.When you dont pass through any heavy muscle or bone ANY point will get deep penetration,what is so confusing about that?Is it just part of living on that planet?

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #12 on:** October 13, 2005, 04:36:14 PM »

Quote from: Rmouleart

Hi guys, took a nice doe with the bow, I wrote a little about how it
Went and attached a picture as well, hope all is well.
Last Sunday around 06:00 Sept25, 2005 took a fifty-five yard shot, might be sixty Yards, clear of sight up hill at a nice adult doe, she was cresting the Field on top and I was on the brook bottom, I walk down the brook to
Quite my entrance to the forest, like the native Indians did, after
Crossing the brook. There is a road. An old logging road kind of grown in
Leads to the field, I stopped to take a look around, and then I spotted
Movement, I see the doe cross the opening to the logging road, and she
Looks down at my direction, I stayed still, and then she continued to walk
Around the fringe, I see a opening good enough for a clear shot, then
She stops in it, I drew and aimed and let it fly, I hear a loud cracking
Sound, like someone broke a big branch, then she blew spun around in a
Circle and headed for the ridge, she jumped the wall and ran down the
Ridge, like nothing was wrong with her, but then I herd crashing at the
Base of the ridge, well I thought to my self I either hit her or a
Branch I did not see, so I waited about twenty minuets due to it was
Getting dark fast, I got to the spot I shot at her, did not find blood
Right away, until I went over the wall, then it looked like paint cans
Of blood was thrown from one side to the other of the deer path, then I
Knew she was hit good, found her at the bottom about sixty yards down the Ridge, I knew I better get gutting, it was almost dark now and under the Tree line it was, so I called a friend to meet me to help drag her out,
I was not sure if there was a pass through, so when I opened her up. I
Used my knife to feel around for the broad head incase it snapped off in
Side her, boy that would cut you up; when I turned her over I could see
The exit wound, then I knew the arrow passed through, my friend Wayne
Came just in time to drag her out, she was all dressed out, we dragged
Her to the fields edge, then I got my jeep and drove it across the
Field and mounted her to the roof racks for safe travel, bungee her up
Good, I was using a Pierson Spoiler at 85pds with a overdraw, 28 inch
2215 eastons, 125gr Bear claw broad heads, freeflight release, fiber optic
Illuminated bead sight, zero to sixty yards she is dead on, good to go. Came Back the next day to find the arrow, forty yards beyond where I passed Through the deer, I had to do a CSI to find it though it was not easy, I Tried to figure the trajectory of the flight of the arrow after the pass Through the deers shoulder and out the left front shoulder, it worked,
the arrow was stuck in the ground pretty good and The fletching was flat down to the shaft, and covered with blood. There Are many deer in this small area, really too many doe's, I counted early Season twenty does, so I did not feel bad shooting some table fair, now Im back to trophy hunting; there is a huge 12 pointer and a good ten in The area, but the season is early and still on the warm side, the bucks Are slower to react till the cold snap hits, thats when I use drags and Mock scrapes to get the bucks going, it works every year. Oh bye the way The doe dressed out at 150 pds good size doe around five years old in Great condition, the shot was behind the shoulder and exited at the Other shoulder(frontal). I will attach a picture as well. Take care my friends

Congrats there Rmouleart, any animal taken with a bow is a trophy in my book.

NimrodRx · « **Reply #13 on:** October 13, 2005, 05:25:38 PM »

Im not trying to be argumentative. Just trying to understand what exactly youre saying.

When you dont pass through any heavy muscle or bone ANY point will get deep penetration,

I have seen that quartering away shot go bad when an arrow turns and exits before it enters the vitals

You just said that any head will get deep penetration with this shot. Then in the next sentence you tell me that the arrow turns on this shot. Which is it?

Again, I ask you, what setup have you seen this happen with? Do you shoot mechanical heads?

NONYA · « **Reply #14 on:** October 13, 2005, 05:42:23 PM »

last year my buddy took the same shot on a cow elk the arrow went in and turned in the guts and came out the same side,half the arrow was sticking out her side as she ran off,we trailed her for 4 hours and finally lost her,it was not a mechanical broadhead,it was a 125 gr muzzy on a aluminum arrow.

myronman3 · « **Reply #15 on:** October 14, 2005, 10:39:08 AM »

the only way i see that happening is if the heads are dull.

with sharp cut-on-contact heads, they arent going to change direction. the only two things i know that will change the direction of travel is brush or bone.

Rmouleart · « **Reply #16 on:** October 14, 2005, 02:22:05 PM »

Thanks Redhawk, Good table fair as well. Good luck and safe hunting to all. Aim small hit small. RAMbo.

Raging480 · « **Reply #17 on:** October 18, 2005, 03:36:09 AM »

Congrats on your hunts, guys. One hunter shoots a deer at a deep angle, and the other takes a 55 yard poke. We got some snipers here!!

Rmouleart · « **Reply #18 on:** October 19, 2005, 08:38:27 AM »

I just want all the hunters to know, I practiced everyday for months to pull off that shot, until I was close to 100%, I would not think of even taking that shot. Always be as humane & ethical as you can be in the field while hunting, If you have any indecision, don't take the shot, there will another day that will come together for you. I know sometimes it is a split decision when it comes to taking the shot with a bow. As we all know, every hunter must know his or her limitations. That is truly the bottom line. Good safe ethical hunting to all.
Aim small hit small. RAMbo.

Leverdude · « **Reply #19 on:** October 19, 2005, 02:45:12 PM »

I took a buck last fall with a similar shot. He was strongly quatering away, dont know how many degrees but 3/4 of the way facing away I guess describes it pretty good. He was quatered stronger than Nimrods sounds like it was. Anyway I put the pin just ahead of his hind quater & hit the release.
Got a pass thru with an exit thru the offside front leg. The arrow was stuk in the ground 20 feet or so beyond the deer & that with a 100 grain NAP thunderhead on a 28" 2219 from a 68# Martin compound. He ran a bit, maybe 50 yards & died.
It was pretty dark when I emptied him out but it looked like I got his stomach, liver, heart & left lung. IMHO any modern SHARP broadhead should go right thru a deer regardless of the angle if you place your shot well.
Maybe a 2 blade will go thru a shoulder or spine better I dunno, to me those arent good places to shoot a deer. I know people that have blown thru shoulder blades with Muzzies among others & if you should get a spine hit you dont need a passthru as the deers not likely going anywhere.
Heres a pic showing the exit.

This ones a doe I got monday, 25 yards slightly quatering away.

NONYA · « **Reply #20 on:** October 20, 2005, 12:59:27 AM »

try that shot on an elk and all you will have is a wasted,lost animal.

Rmouleart · « **Reply #21 on:** October 20, 2005, 04:46:30 AM »

Any shot threw the lungs is a good shot on any animal,double lung, that is considered vitals, they can only run as far as they can hold there breath, and thats not far, and thats with any animal of any size, I call that the boiler room. Elk are very tough animals, Elk are known to travel longer distances with a good boiler room shot, they are just like any animal, if they can't breath they can't go to far,once the blood pressure drops low, the animal will lay down, Let the animal lay for at least half hour before tracking, don't push the animal after the shot, In most cases the animal ends up taking a dirt nap. Aim small hit small. RAMbo.

NONYA · « **Reply #22 on:** October 20, 2005, 05:05:17 AM »

I dont know how many ellk you have killed but I have killed one almost every year since i was 13,I have seen elk shot with a rifle through bolth lungs travel for almost an hour before the stopped,do you know how far an elk can travel in an hour?An elk hit throuh the stomach and 1 lung with an arrow could travel all day,elk dont go laydown and die as easily as a deer does,even if you believe you have a vital shot with a bow the very minimum you wait before you start trailing is 1 hour,many hunters who have lost elk in archery hunts will wait till the next day.I have seen these poor shots go bad first hand,if you take shots like that on elk the odds are you are gonna loose 75% of them.Then again you guys have all the awnsers,keep gut shootin your deer,try it on an elk and see what happens.

Leverdude · « **Reply #23 on:** October 20, 2005, 02:06:47 PM »

Quote from: NONYA

I dont know how many ellk you have killed but I have killed one almost every year since i was 13,I have seen elk shot with a rifle through bolth lungs travel for almost an hour before the stopped,do you know how far an elk can travel in an hour?An elk hit throuh the stomach and 1 lung with an arrow could travel all day,elk dont go laydown and die as easily as a deer does,even if you believe you have a vital shot with a bow the very minimum you wait before you start trailing is 1 hour,many hunters who have lost elk in archery hunts will wait till the next day.I have seen these poor shots go bad first hand,if you take shots like that on elk the odds are you are gonna loose 75% of them.Then again you guys have all the awnsers,keep gut shootin your deer,try it on an elk and see what happens.

Well, I thought we were talkng about deer anyway. You seem to think your pretty high & mighty & thats ok.:grin: I'v not shot a deer in a long time that I didn't recover but I have heard that Elk are harder to kill quickly so I supose your right on that count anyway. There will always be an animal tougher than the one someone hunts, its our responsibility to know the animal we are hunting & place our shots acordingly. I was taught to go for the vitals & its worked just fine so far, if I ever have the oportunity to hunt Elk I'll sure take your advice & opinion to heart but the derogatory remarks aren't really necessary. To my way of thinkng a gut shot is just that, a shot thru the guts not hitting the vitals. Alot of game is taken with shots that pass thru things like shoulders & guts on the way to the vitals & while it may waste a bit of meat its sure not unethical.

Now then, if an Elk can travel for an hour with both lungs blown out then how does a body kill one cleanly?

NONYA · « **Reply #24 on:** October 20, 2005, 04:07:53 PM »

High and mighty?I have been talking about elk since my first post and trying to share first hand experience with fellow hunters,all i get is argumants about "I did this,and I did that" and i have been trying to get across that if you do this elk hunting it wont work the same,sorry for intruding in your thread that you should have named "poorly placed shots will kill game,sometimes"

Rmouleart · « **Reply #25 on:** October 21, 2005, 06:55:27 AM »

Ok maybe you will understand this, all animals as far as I knew, breath oxygen,without oxygen life can not be maintained, lowered blood pressure's and lack of oxygen, are cause of death in most cases, other than the shock to the body bullets can cause. In saying this, the animal has very little time to live, in most cases death accurse with in a few minuets, A animal can travel a good amount of distance in a minuet, like I said before, about as long as he an hold his breath, its very simple to understand, now if you are talking a gut shot, now your talking about a animal traveling great distances, undergoing great suffering, this is due to a poor shot, missing the boiler room and hitting the gut or hind quarters. understanding this is not a perfect world, and things go wrong, like murphys law;) I the case of a gut shot, the only thing to do is wait a good amount of time, and hope he lays down to take a dirt nap, don't push him, if you do, in most cases he will out last your two legs with ease. I have hunted all over vast amounts of species and out of all my years of hunting in the field, I never seen a animal with a double lung shot travel over 200 yards, not counting the great blood trail thats left to follow. if you see bubbles in the blood left to track, in most cases you have a lung shot. In many cases the animal run like nothing is wrong with him, that is just adrenaline taking over, but that only lasts a short while after being shot, again wait at least a halfhour before tracking. Believe me when I say I have seen Moose/CapeBuff/Grizzys shot well with 338mag's/416/458 etc, at first the animal does not react right away, but believe me he is dead before he knows it. Large game animals with dense bodys can undergo great shock to there bodys, running low blood pressures to begin with is why they can indure unbelievable shots to the vitals, running beyond 100 yards before dropping. Again like I said before no oxygen no life, Bottom line. Aim small hit small. RAMbo.

NONYA · « **Reply #26 on:** October 21, 2005, 07:17:09 AM »

maybe some day you can put your data to use on an elk and then tell me about how far a lungshot animal can go,until then Ill refrain from this angle of shot on all game,i have more respect for the animal than to take a shot that has to pass through the guts before it gets to anything vital with a bow. :roll:

NimrodRx · « **Reply #27 on:** October 21, 2005, 01:32:23 PM »

I don't know why I'm bothering to point this out. Anyone who's been following the thread has most likely come to the same conclusion as Leverdude. I know I have. But....

"With a shot like you took there is a very good chance the arrow will turn and miss the vitals all together leaving a gutshot animal running around that will die a very long painful death"
[/quote]

"Any shot where you have to pass through the stomach and/or intestines before you hit any vital organs is a poor shot"

"I have been talking about elk since my first post"

Have you? Seems to me that "any shot" would imply just that - any shot, not just shots on elk. Again you contradict yourself. The shot I took (you know the poorly placed unethical one) was on a whitetail doe. I wasn't shooting at an elk. It seems to me that you started focusing on elk only after everybody called BS on your assesment of shot placement. [/quote]

NONYA · « **Reply #28 on:** October 22, 2005, 02:30:52 AM »

If I was gonna call Bs on anything i would overlook your shooting choices and call BS on your attitude.What is BS about insisting on a broadside shot while bowhunting?What is BS about not wanting to waste and wound game animals?What is BS about discussing the difference between deer and elk and what kind of shots will or wont work?What is BS about sharing past experiences that showed why this angle of shot can be a poor choice?What is BS about me trying to explain to others why i believe your shot angle is a very poor one?Because it differs with your opinions and vast experience?You can call BS on anything you want,you said in your first post this is the first time you had a shot like this that went through the animal so either you never took this shot before or the prior ones didnt penetrate and you wounded animals,either way it shows me that you have very little experience with this shot angle and you have showed me your not willing to listen to anyone elses opinion as long as its not the same as yours,so why start a thread like this?So you can call bs on people?I think so.

Duce · « **Reply #29 on:** October 22, 2005, 07:38:04 AM »

Folks: I've heard all these arguments befor. In 30 year of deer hunting, I can honestly say "that it doesn't surprise me". I've seen a shotgun shot deer {twice hit by 2 different hunters, both fine shots} trailed over a mile and lost, a bowshot deer {shattered a back leg}, recovered dispatched with a knife. I firmly believe in 2 bladed broadhead, used Grizzles, because of insert failure, went to Nuggents/Magnus. I've always been leary of a flat boadside shot, despite how all the target are drawn, a deer's internals don't lay exacltly that way. Standing broadside, legs straight down, the heart lays almost beneath the front leg, while the front half of the lungs are protected the shoulderblade, so give me a quartering shot any day, putting the arrow in just behind the last rib. The 2 bow hit deer I remember most was a year and a half, facing me head down. Placed the arrow between the shoulderblades, exiting the sturnem, she hopped sideways and went back to feeding, shook her head drunkly and dropped dead less than 10 feet from where she was hit. The other was a 4 point hit to far back liver and gut, he layed down within 50 yds. of me, died within an hour. Point is that you always should aim for the boil room, but if a gut shot happens your follow up is important. Be patient a gut shot deer is recoverable, remember it's blood loss that kills. Keep Your Broadheads Sharp!!!!!!! :grin: <>< Duce: