M92 45 Colt versus 45/70

[eldsverk]

Hello all.  I had a couple of questions that I wanted to post for input.
 
I am planning to upgrade my field revolver from a .357  to a 45 colt for some extra comfort after several bear encounters during archery season.  I am also considering getting a Hartford M92 45 Colt to pair up with it.  I currently have a Marlin GG in 45/70 and was wondering how well the M92 45 Colt compared to the 45/70 for big game hunting and bear defense.  I know the 45/70 can use heavier bullets, but does the theoretical paper differences translate to real world benefits ?
 
Also, while searching and reading through the forums, I saw a few posts saying that hard cast bullet penetration peaked at a certain velocity (1400fps ?).  I was wondering if anyone knew any articles or reference materials on this topic.  Its something I would like to do some more reading on.
 
Thanks in advance for any information.  
 
Jason

[EsoxLucius]

A 420 grain hard cast bullet driven 1890 fps for 3332 fpe in the Marlin 1895G 45-70 compared with a 360 grain hard cast driven 1500 fps for 1799 fpe in the Puma M92 45 Colt.  For bear defense I know which one I would pick.

[B_Koes]

If I remember correctly Linbaugh had done some interesting penetration analysis and was linked to sixgun.com.  I don't think penetration will peak out at lower velocities, but more velocity adds very little to penetration beyond a certain point which has to do more with sectional density.

I guess the question becomes more about is a .45LC enough for bear.  I don't have experience with .45 caliber cast bullets on bear, but I'm reasonably confident that with a strong action like the '92 that you can get more than enough velocity from the .45 LC to be effective on bear.  However, given the choice of calibers I could carry when experiencing a run-in with a grizzly I'll opt for a .50 cal machine gun! ;-)

[jakes10mm]

I will pick up my Puma 92 in 45 Colt as a companion to my Ruger SBH Hunter.  I remember a penetration test between all the "big boy" handgun cartridges.  The Linebaughs, Nitros, etc.  They also tested the 44 mag and 45 Colt.  My memory serves me as remembering that the 45 Colt penetrated considerably more than the 44mag.

You definitely should look up the Linebaugh information on Sixgunner.com.  Linebaugh is a true advocate of the 45 Colt.  I cannot remember the sight, but do a web search for "KO power calculator".  It is another means of comparing bullets and weights for effect on game.  Cross sectional density comes into play.  
A few thoughts:
The .458 vs .452 in the 45-70 vs 45 Colt is nominal.  
The extra fps could be wasted lodging the bullet in the earth.
How many rounds does each rifle hold?  May be important if you're running as your shooting..LOL
Which rifle can you fire faster while maintaining sight alignment?
There are heavier bullets for both cartridges.

By the way, I have nothing against the 45-70....it one of my favorites.  I carried a Winchester 1886 in 45-70 last deer season.

[Scota]

The 45 colt and 45-70 are as the 22 cb cap is to the 22 long rifle.  Any conventional pistol cartridge is not enough for angry bears.  The 45-70 is marginal.  I would suggest a 458 Win mag.  No kidding. Studies have shown it to be fairly effective.  45-70 is marginal.  If I thoght I had a real chance of fighting a bear I would not mess around with a 45LC.  Shooting a big bear with that thing is likely to get you mauled or killed.

[eldsverk]

Thanks for the feedback so far.

I should clarify one point.  I live in SW Montana, so the bears I am dealing with are not the Alaskan ones.  We have encountered mostly black bears, but did see one Griz as they are expanding their range as the younger ones establish their home ranges.  We were guessing he was around the 400-450lb range.  FWP is rather quiet on the issue as they do not want it publically known where the bears are.

I would think that there is a difference between whats good for the lower 48 and Alaska.


Jason

[Ganjiro]

You "need" another gun so buy the Hartford 92.  The 92 action is quite stout so iy can handle the commercial loads below or if you handload even better with plenty potential.  A hot 45 Colt load more than enough medicine for a black bear.  The 92 is such a classic, and a handy package.

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#45colt

[Lone Star]

I spent 27 winters in Alaska and hunted Kodiak Island almost every fall, been charged repeatedly and shot my share of the big guys.  I get a kick out of all the armchair opinions on what is needed for brownie protection....  :-D

I did considerable testing with my M94 in .45LC years ago.  Loads which I considered safe then (I no longer do) gave the 300-grain jacketed bullets 1575 fps, and 340-grain cast bullets 1450 fps.  These were brutal to fire in the little Winchester, but they would be effective on deer, bear, whatever at close range.  They do not approach what an 1895 would supply, but they would suffice.  More than one hunter has saved his life using a .44 Mag or .454 handgun on a close-range charging or mauling brownie. FWIW I carried a short-barreled BH in .45LC with 300-grain LBTs at 1100 fps when I carried a revolver, but I hunted Kodiak more often with Contenders than with rifles.  

[Cottonwood]

eldsverk

I live in up and across from you in NW Montana.. here in Montana the FWP will tell you that the best bear defense is a 12 ga pump with 00 buck.

But given the topic of this thread, I would carry a Marlin 1895M or 1895G in 45-70 loaded with an appropriate Super Hard Cast bullet that will break both shoulders, should that shot present itself.

I don't buy Garrett's or Buffalo Bore ammo, so we won't go there for expensive prices.  I load my own, and can duplicate what they do for a fraction of what they charge.

[coopershooter]

i would be comfortable with the 45lc. properly loaded, i think its not far behind the 45-70. i have shot a few hogs with the 45lc and 300gr wfn cast bullets. they kill very well! to say the least! as you allready have a companion pistol, go for the 45.

[jd45]

K_koes, I laughed til I cried at the tail-end of your post,....however, To whom it may concern, read Paco Kelly's, "The .45 Colt in Lever Action Rifles", at Leverguns.com. His handloads in a strong 1892 action approach a 45-70 load...........not equal, approach! JD45