Author Topic: 1148 steel, opinions  (Read 1440 times)

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Offline uz2busmc

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1148 steel, opinions
« on: September 03, 2005, 10:07:01 AM »
I e-mailed Cannon Mike to enquire as to what type of steel he used for his cannons and he was nice enough to take the time to reply. He uses 1148, anyone have an idea of how strong this stuff is. My future big bore plans most likely involve one of his cannons because I think his barrel designs look outstanding. More or less hoping someone knows a little about 1148, or maybe has one of his cannons. Thanx guys

Offline Cat Whisperer

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« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2005, 11:22:21 AM »
Couldn't find much on 1148, but here's a link on 1144.

http://www.efunda.com/materials/alloys/carbon_steels/show_carbon.cfm?ID=AISI_1144&prop=all&Page_Title=AISI%201144

The 11 tells you it's a resulpherized steel and the 44 says it's 0.44% carbon (0.40 to 0.48 in the above listing).  1148 may or may not be different (all standard warnings apply).

I have a LOT of respect for 1144 for strenght, ductility (depending on how it's been heat treated/annealed).  It also cuts very well (although not quite as well as the famous 12L14.  (12L14 cuts better, but isn't as strong as 1144.)

We did the golf-ball mortar contest in 1144 Stress Proof - a specific designation for how it's annealed.  Both the 1144sp and 12L14 are resulpherized, the L tells you lead has been added for strength - doesn't affect other qualities untill it's hardened to Rc45 or thereabouts.

That's a start.
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Offline GGaskill

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« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2005, 06:55:05 PM »
It will take heat treating (.45% Carbon) but probably will not weld well (sulphur and .45% Carbon.)
GG
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Offline HotGuns

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« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2005, 07:06:12 AM »
THe "L" in 12L14 does mean the addition of lead, but it has nothing to do with strength as it has little affect.

What the addition of lead does do is add to the machinablilty of metal without appreciably affecting other properties.

That is why 12L14 is some of the best machining steel on the market.

Offline Cat Whisperer

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« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2005, 07:56:23 AM »
Quote from: HotGuns
THe "L" in 12L14 does mean the addition of lead, but it has nothing to do with strength as it has little affect.

What the addition of lead does do is add to the machinablilty of metal without appreciably affecting other properties.

That is why 12L14 is some of the best machining steel on the market.


Agree with you on the purpose of the lead.  However, in the ASM metals handbook, Vol. 1, Properties and selection of metals, there is reference to the lead affecting (reducing) the strengths of the metal when the hardness of the metal exceded Rc 45.  How much degredation?  Don't know.
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Offline uz2busmc

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« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2005, 04:50:42 AM »
So all in all, the 1148 should make a fairly strong cannon, correct.

Offline Cat Whisperer

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« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2005, 05:54:10 AM »
In my OPINION (for what that's worth) I would build some cannons from 1144 or 1148.

My reasons are:
a) the strength is high.
b) the hardness of the round stock (Rc 22 for 1-7/8" of 1144sp) is low, hence ductility is good.
c) everything I've read points in the right direction.
d) machinability is excellent
e) although not fired extensively (a very good test if I'd done it) I've made a few from 114sp and like it (not a really good reason for using it).

Do you need more than 100,000 or so lbs of tensile strength?  SOME might, I don't.  (1018 is around 60,000 if I recall correctly).

4130 or 4140 is a tougher steel of about the same strength - as used in most smokless rifle barrels.


JUST AS IMPORTANT as the type of material are the details of the design - eliminating stress risers by rounding inside corners and having the right thicknesses of material in critical places!
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Offline GGaskill

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« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2005, 06:44:44 AM »
From my perspective, since I include welding as a fabrication technique, I would stay away from it due to the sulphur content.  Otherwise it looks like a suitable material if it doesn't get brittle from heat treatment.
GG
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Offline Cat Whisperer

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« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2005, 07:32:31 AM »
Quote from: GGaskill
From my perspective, since I include welding as a fabrication technique, I would stay away from it due to the sulphur content.  Otherwise it looks like a suitable material if it doesn't get brittle from heat treatment.


George, thanks for mentioning that.  It didn't cross my mind because I do NO welding on cannon/mortar barrels - unless they're only for decoration.
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Offline uz2busmc

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« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2005, 08:55:38 AM »
What is the difference between 1040 and 1040 certified gun steel? Also, CW, were you saying in the above post that the 1148 would have around 100,000 p.s.i.?  
 
Sorry for all of these questions, there's a few cannons that I'm trying to decide between for a future purchase. I'm trying to get a handle on which might be the strongest for shooting ball ammo. So far I like Cannon Mike's the best (1148) - they seem to be very heavy duty. Another is from Canadian Cannon 80,000 p.s.i. (12LD 14), and the last is from Cannon Mania, which is a smaller cannon (18") but is made from 1040 certified gun steel supposedly rated at 125,000 p.s.i.'s - this would make it the strongest as far as tensile strength but then again, the other two cannons have more metal surrounding the bore. So in a nut shell, the choices and the numbers are killin' me.

Offline Cat Whisperer

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« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2005, 10:35:20 AM »
Quote from: uz2busmc
What is the difference between 1040 and 1040 certified gun steel? Also, CW, were you saying in the above post that the 1148 would have around 100,000 p.s.i.?  
 
Sorry for all of these questions, there's a few cannons that I'm trying to decide between for a future purchase. I'm trying to get a handle on which might be the strongest for shooting ball ammo. So far I like Cannon Mike's the best (1148) - they seem to be very heavy duty. Another is from Canadian Cannon 80,000 p.s.i. (12LD 14), and the last is from Cannon Mania, which is a smaller cannon (18") but is made from 1040 certified gun steel supposedly rated at 125,000 p.s.i.'s - this would make it the strongest as far as tensile strength but then again, the other two cannons have more metal surrounding the bore. So in a nut shell, the choices and the numbers are killin' me.


There are probably about a dozen or so factors that should be considered in the process - split between the characteristics of the steel, the strength of the design and the use to which the shootin' iron is put.  

If you're planning on very high pressures, lots of firing and minimal cleaning - you might want to consider either testing with a couple of barrels going through the strenght testing to point of failure and repeated firngs of charge just below that on the second barrel to gauge life of the barrel.

On the other hand, if you're planning on sticking with an appropriate amount of windage with moderate charges using slower grades of powder with regular cleaning using a design that has been time-tested, has rounded inside corners and a powder chamber with a liner for the fuse hole - THEN I would recommend any of the steels listed.

Remember that it is not the tensile strength but keeping the charges (hence pressures) to reasonable levels.  Steel will stretch when the round is fired.  If not stretched past the point of permanent stretching it will retain it's strength for  many many rounds.  If it is stretched a little too far is becomes less ductile is hardened and is more brittle - therefore mor dangerous.

1148 ?  I'm familiar with 1144 and am ASSUMING (classic definition & all standard warnings apply) that it is right-much like 1144 with a little more carbon.  You NEED to check out it's characteristics - vendors are great for providing this information as their sales depend on it.

In general, most mild steels are SO MUCH better (in the characteristics that count) than cast iron and bronze, that if ou hve a good design for CI or bronze/cast iron it should do well with steel.  Note also the issues of liners and DOM or SEAMLESS liners.

You need to get to the point where you feel comfortable with the choices base on everything you've seen or heard and KNOW WHY you've made the choices.  Toss out these ideas and you will get good feedback regarding the design from a good number of very experienced folks here.

If your design is like a proven successful design with another margin of strength for safety added (INMHBAO) you will have a safe design.


That doesn't give you a yes or a no.  That is for you to decide.
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline Terry C.

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« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2005, 11:43:16 AM »
uz2busmc, the term "certified gun steel" sounded familiar, so I looked over the Cannon Mania website.

Are you perhaps referring to this cannon?



If so, that's the same gun that I have, but bought mine as a barrel only and built my own field carriage.




BTW, if it's this one, then it's 1045 steel , not 1040.

I regularly shoot this gun with 500 grains (by weight, not volume) of FFg for a blank, and 250 grains of Fg behind a lead ball.

The balls from the 1.125" JT mold weigh 4¾ ounces cast from wheelweight lead, and have proper windage for the 1.156" bore.

Offline Cat Whisperer

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« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2005, 12:18:54 PM »
Terry C. -

Thanks for picking up on the term "certified ...".

I would look first to WHO certified and WHAT the certification is - I think reasonable questions.  

CJ mentioned something a year or so ago about 'graded' steel.  Which, I think, was referring to the quality control system in place to warrent that the # on the steel represented the actual content of it and some more things unknown to us at this time about the processes and quality checks the steel encountered in manufacture and distribution.

That is to say there are TWO large organizations that a) make and b) use steel in the world (amoung a few others as well).  Namely AISI AND SAE.  The numbering systems are virtually identical, one having 5 and the other 4 character/numbers identifying the steel.  

So if the steel is a 'numbered' steel (1018, 1040 etc.) that is saying MUCH more than CRS (cold rolled steel).

Certification means that SOMEONE is going to put their name on verifying that it's OK for the intended application.  I respect that.  (Especially when the two questions are answered.)

FWIW
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Offline GGaskill

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« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2005, 05:45:28 PM »
Although not really an authority on the subject, it is my understanding that "certification" from a retail vendor really means that there is a paper trail between actual pieces of steel and the manufacturer such that the buyer can be confident that a particular piece of steel is what it is made out to be.  That is, for example, the piece of steel I buy from Joe Blow's Steel and Iron is actually the 1018 that it was sold as and the manufacturer is Crucible Steel (for example) who will back that up.

What it really is saying is that some other kind of steel wasn't accidentally substituted for what you think you have.  It does not guarantee that a particular steel is appropriate for your use.
GG
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Offline Cat Whisperer

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« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2005, 03:35:51 AM »
Quote from: GGaskill
Although not really an authority on the subject, it is my understanding that "certification" from a retail vendor really means that there is a paper trail between actual pieces of steel and the manufacturer such that the buyer can be confident that a particular piece of steel is what it is made out to be.  That is, for example, the piece of steel I buy from Joe Blow's Steel and Iron is actually the 1018 that it was sold as and the manufacturer is Crucible Steel (for example) who will back that up.

What it really is saying is that some other kind of steel wasn't accidentally substituted for what you think you have.  It does not guarantee that a particular steel is appropriate for your use.


Good explanation!  I think I'd go a little further in taking the entire phrase and make the ASSUMPTION (classic definition with all standard warnings) that coupling the word "certified" with "gun steel" that the steel in question had something appropriate to do with the application at hand.

Of course that would be SOMEONE's OPPINION.  Now the question still remains - that of the principles of design coupled with the characteristics of the materials coupled with the application by the user.

Which is to say:

1. have lots of others used the design/material/application very successfully?

2. are there questions raised as to the safety of the application at hand?  AND are these questions based on experience/events/known-principles (not just fear of the unknown).

At this point (probably before) we make a decision and take the necessary saftey precautions and light the fuse.
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Offline uz2busmc

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« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2005, 09:58:20 AM »
Terry C.,

  Yep, that was the cannon I was talking about. Had to many numbers in my head when I was trying to type the last post, I meant 1045. That cannon looks really good in that carriage you made btw. Do you shoot the 250 gr for the ball weighted as well or by volume?

Cw,

  Thanx again for the responses. I know that no one else can give me a yes or no on a particular cannon, you're right, I'm the only one that can do that. But the more knowledge I can draw out of everyones head on here the better . It will make it easier to make an educated decision on the cannon I want to get in the future. It would be a whole lot easier if I were more educated on alloys and the appropriate uses, then I could find the happy medium of strength and flexibility for my particular application.

Offline Terry C.

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« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2005, 10:42:57 AM »
By weight.  I've been planning to make some accurate volume measures but just haven't gotten around to it yet.

I have a Cabelas electronic scale that goes up to 1500 grains. This has been a real asset. Since I prepare all of my charges ahead of time, it's just as easy for me to weigh them out individually.

The small BP volume measures commercially available are (in my experience) all grossly inaccurate to begin with, and using them to measure out large charges just compounds the error.

A volume measure calibrated to dispense a known weight of a specific granulation in a single throw would be perfect.

But multiple throws from an already questionable small measure does not inspire me with confidence.

I really gotta get off'a my butt get some powder measures made...


Oh yeah, if you do happen to buy that cannon, let me know. We can put our heads together and come up with some accurate charge volume data. I'll even send you a some balls, I make my own for practically nothing.

Offline uz2busmc

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« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2005, 02:52:21 PM »
Terry,

It will still be a little while before I get another cannon, but if I do get that cannon, we'll get something going.