Author Topic: Ruger or CZ  (Read 1674 times)

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Offline tanoose

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Ruger or CZ
« on: August 21, 2005, 05:30:06 AM »
Ihave been saving up for a new bigbore rifle in .458 Lott  I am about 99% sure that i want the Ruger M77 Deluxe Magnum. I am getting prices between $1200-$1300 hear in upstate NY. Last weekend i was in Gander Mountain in kingston and they had a CZ i think it was the 550 american  for $ 829.00 It felt very good but i thought i was a little light. I 've yet to find someone who has the ruger in stock so i have not been able to get a feel for it. Its not a question of money but i was just wondering how the CZ stacked up against the Ruger.

Offline gunnut69

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« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2005, 10:47:07 AM »
The ruger has a much better scope mounting system but the QC on the MkII's I've seen has been spotty at best.  The CZ's I've dealt with have all functioned exceptionally well.  Perhaps the specialty Rugers are built better than the normal MkII's but I would go for the CZ..
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Offline vernonp

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« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2005, 01:01:55 PM »
I prefer the CZ. It has the best trigger on the market and the Ruger has the worst for starters. It has all metal bottom and I would expect it to be more accurate.------vernonp

Offline Redhawk1

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« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2005, 02:39:37 PM »
I would have to go with the Ruger myself.  :D
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Offline hunt127588

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« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2005, 06:22:21 AM »
I have both a Ruger MKII Stainless and a CZ550. I'll let you make the decision but here are my impressions of each:

Ruger Pros:
Less expensive
Light weight
Stainless
Included rings

Ruger Cons:
Horrible trigger
cast parts
mediocre accuracy
thin(er) barrel
not true mauser design (older design that is not controlled round feed)

CZ Pros:
All milled steel trigger guard
single stage set trigger
forged receiver
easy takedown of bolt

CZ Cons:
Heavier
mediocre accuracy (much better after having it bedded)
Ring setup on receiver (don't feel they have enough to bite)

In order to get the CZ to keep from producing shotgun patterns at 100 yds, I had to have it glass bedded and had some trigger work done. It now shoots around 1MOA with factory stuff.

Offline Omaha-BeenGlockin

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« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2005, 10:14:30 AM »
CZ's workmanship is still a bit crude for my taste---the Ruger is a first rate product.

BUT-----that extra $500 or so would get ya a real nice scope on that CZ---if you didn't get the Ruger.

Offline Lawdog

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« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2005, 11:58:37 AM »
tanoose,

For the best bang for your dollar go with the Ruger, you won’t regret it.  Ruger has the best scope mounting system going today.  A better designed stock(and I am NOT talking about the old “Hog Back” 550 Safari Magnum either).  The “lawyer” trigger is an easy fix with a Timney Adjustable one and actually makes the Ruger more valuable.  The workmanship on the Ruger is much superior to that of the CZ.  The CZ is very rough when compared to the Ruger.  The very best part of the Ruger is it is made in America, backed by a warrantee that you can bank on.  Believe me you’ll be much happier with the Ruger M77 Deluxe Magnum especially at the price tag you posted.  Lawdog
 :D
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Offline Slamfire

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« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2005, 01:42:37 AM »
Quote from: Lawdog
tanoose,

For the best bang for your dollar go with the Ruger, you won’t regret it.  Ruger has the best scope mounting system going today.  A better designed stock(and I am NOT talking about the old “Hog Back” 550 Safari Magnum either).  The “lawyer” trigger is an easy fix with a Timney Adjustable one and actually makes the Ruger more valuable.  The workmanship on the Ruger is much superior to that of the CZ.  The CZ is very rough when compared to the Ruger.  The very best part of the Ruger is it is made in America, backed by a warrantee that you can bank on.  Believe me you’ll be much happier with the Ruger M77 Deluxe Magnum especially at the price tag you posted.  Lawdog
 :D


And it is better lookin' too.

Bold talk from a one eyed fat man.

Offline kenjs1

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« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2005, 03:06:30 AM »
So - so accuracy with the CZ??????   If I review all posts on CZ I see an overwhelming majority favoring its accuracy over Rugers which have a reputation on most forums as very hit or miss in that department.  As for looks I guess beauty is ni the eye of the beholder but I think the average CZ is more attractive, with nicer wood, than Rugers.  I hear few\no complaints on the ring mounting of the CZ other than they are over-stout.  Use the set trigger for three shots and you won't go back.

Offline hunt127588

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« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2005, 05:17:17 AM »
Accuracy on my CZ550 (.243) just plain sucked out of the box. It was due to the fact that there was pressure on the barrel by the forearm of the stock. I ended up having it bedded and it shoots great now. My Ruger is one of the original stainless Rugers (back when Ruger sub-contracted other companies to produce their barrels). Accuracy on it is fine for hunting but wouldn't/couldn't use it for any type of long range shooting as I probably get 2MOA out of it. However, this could probably be remedied with a bedding job as well.

Quote from: kenjs1
So - so accuracy with the CZ??????   If I review all posts on CZ I see an overwhelming majority favoring its accuracy over Rugers which have a reputation on most forums as very hit or miss in that department.  As for looks I guess beauty is ni the eye of the beholder but I think the average CZ is more attractive, with nicer wood, than Rugers.  I hear few\no complaints on the ring mounting of the CZ other than they are over-stout.  Use the set trigger for three shots and you won't go back.

Offline Lawdog

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« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2005, 09:55:03 AM »
Quote from: kenjs1
So - so accuracy with the CZ??????   If I review all posts on CZ I see an overwhelming majority favoring its accuracy over Rugers which have a reputation on most forums as very hit or miss in that department.


I would like to know where those that claim that Ruger's have a "reputation on most forums as very hit or miss" accuracy comes from.  If it is about that OLD issue of Ruger getting some bad barrels then that is ancient history.  That was back when Ruger first brought out the M77 and Ruger took delivery of a bunch of bad barrels from a supplier(only one).  Today Ruger makes their own barrels and they received many awards for the accuracy over the years.  Barrels are each different and have their likes and dislikes when it comes to loads.  You may have to adjust your favorite load to fit the rifle.  I have many M77’s(both new and old) and all will most generally shoot better than I am capable of on any given day.  Lawdog
 :D
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Offline Rod B

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« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2005, 10:12:47 AM »
Quote from: Lawdog
Quote from: kenjs1
So - so accuracy with the CZ??????   If I review all posts on CZ I see an overwhelming majority favoring its accuracy over Rugers which have a reputation on most forums as very hit or miss in that department.


I would like to know where those that claim that Ruger's have a "reputation on most forums as very hit or miss" accuracy comes from.  If it is about that OLD issue of Ruger getting some bad barrels then that is ancient history.  That was back when Ruger first brought out the M77 and Ruger took delivery of a bunch of bad barrels from a supplier(only one).  Today Ruger makes their own barrels and they received many awards for the accuracy over the years.  Barrels are each different and have their likes and dislikes when it comes to loads.  You may have to adjust your favorite load to fit the rifle.  I have many M77’s(both new and old) and all will most generally shoot better than I am capable of on any given day.  Lawdog
 :D


I agree with Lawdog. I have a Ruger 77VT in .308 Win. Its more accurate than my other rifles with the exception of my Rem VLS in .223. Its a toss up which of these is the most accurate.


Rod. :wink:
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Offline Yukon Gold

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« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2005, 06:53:43 AM »
Quote
The “lawyer” trigger is an easy fix with a Timney Adjustable one and actually makes the Ruger more valuable. The workmanship on the Ruger is much superior to that of the CZ. The CZ is very rough when compared to the Ruger.


Hate to buy a gun, only to have to pay additional monies for a decent trigger!  My CZ set trigger is great.

Workmanship?  It's a coin toss for me.  I own both, love both.  My older Ruger is a work of art - but the new Rugers....finish is not what it used to be.  My new CZ 550 is smooth, and looks good.
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Offline vernonp

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« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2005, 11:25:30 AM »
This is the way these "which do you like the most" threads always turn out. We all have different taste in cars guns and everything else and it is a damn good thing that we do. I have two CZ's, a model 70, a Kimber 84 and I took Lawdogs advice and bought a Savage and love it. I do not share his like for Rugers. I like my 550 American more than the Kimber or Winchester and I can add Remington, Ruger and most other brands. I do not see what there is to not like about the 550. The best trigger on the market, much better Walnut than came on my Kimber and all steel bottom. I did not like the forend on the stock, it seemed too long and I did not like the shape of it so I chopped about 2 1/2 inches off and reshaped it. I also have not found anything rough about any part of it. So we are where we started, nobody has changed anyones mind so we keep buying what we like.------vernonp

Offline 7x57mm

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« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2005, 11:36:11 AM »
:D I have owned four Rugers, two with the tang safety and two Mark II and of the four, one was really a good shooter and the others were okay, but not fantastic. No way does my experience with the four Rugers mean I think Ruger makes So-So rifles. Three were 7x57s and the fourth was a .284 Winchester. I glassbedded the last Mark II and it was a pretty decent shooter to say the least. I traded it in for my first CZ 550, in 7x57mm. It was a good shooter from the box, but after glassbedding and some handload development, it is a fantastic shooter. The bolt felt a bit gritty, but so did ALL four of my Rugers from the 1975, 1878, 1989 and 1992 years. I just took some working of the bolt to straighten out that gritty feeling. The triggers on the CZs are fantastic. In standard mode the trigger is highly adjustable and easily adjustable by anyone who does not have three thumbs. The set trigger mode was factory set at 12 ounces and I left it at that. When I tell people it has a set trigger they keep looking for the second trigger until I explain you have to push the one trigger all the way forward to put it in the set function. I read about some people not wanting the set funtion and asking about disabling it. Heck, just don't push the tirgger forward and you can't use the set function ... no big deal. I glassbedded my rifle and did some other work, not because the rifle needed it to bring it up to standard, but because that is what I wanted to do. With my handloads my 7mm Mauser is a sub-half minute of angle shooter at 100 yards. I love shooting it and do shoot it a lot so that may also explain the very small groups. Based on my experience with the CZ 550 I purchased a CZ 527 in .223 and to break it down in simple words, it is amazing. I, for one, cannot say Ruger does a better job of wood-to-metal fit over CZ, or CZ's is better than Ruger's fit. I recognize that lemons can be made in any mass-produced firearm and CZ is certainly not the exception, however, I hear about far fewer complaints about the CZ than most other mass-produced firearms. That said, one complaint I have heard is that CZ does not put crossbolts on its heavy-recoiling rifles. You have to do that. For me only, if I were faced with the choice between a Ruger and CZ, I woyuld buy the CZ. Tom Purdom

Offline tanoose

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« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2005, 03:49:40 AM »
Thanks for all your replys  as far as the CZ goes i was tyalking about the 550 american safari magnum in 458 Lott and i have seen alot of posts on there stocks cracking  and spoke with someone who had there stock crack on the 12th shot. I have decided to go with the Ruger Magnum and i was able to hold one the other day and the trigger was fine no work needed . As far as accuracy goes  i have seen alot of posts about the rugers accuracy not being so good , i must say i had a 77rs in 338 that shot great and my #1 deer rifle is a 77 ultra light  stainless syn. stock in 30/06 and it shoots within a 1/4" in of my remington 700 BDL and two guys in my club use ruger 77's  and i have never heard them complaine about accuracy problems. I think lots of people get accustomed to certain stock designs and when they shoot a different one  and there not getting groups they are esed to they blame the rifle. Again thanks for all your help , Later Tanoose

Offline kenjs1

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« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2005, 08:38:38 AM »
tanoose - good luck with that Ruger, and congrats.  Let us know how it shoots.  Lawdog and others - hope I didn't step on toes re: Ruger accuracy.   It is just that the CZ's are raved about on other forums like 24hourcampfire and huntamerica - also where I have seen complaints about Rugers -BUT to be fair, there are also found plenty of people who swear by  Rugers and wouldn't trade for a Winchester or Kimber or whatever.   I am also referring to the 550  American and not the heavy hitting Safari's as I know much less about them.  You will soooner or later hear good and bad about every rifle.  Just have to hope you get a shooter or that you can turn it into a shooter by finding out quickly what it needs. Funny, but when you have to tweak a rifle a bit it can really personalize it and endear you to it all the more when it does start responding.   I do love the triggers on the cz - an the bolt is massive and reassuring.  I will admit mine is still a tad rough but it does shoot fantastic.  The Rugers are pretty - especially the ultralight.

Offline kenjs1

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« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2005, 08:42:58 AM »
Vernonp - interesting.  Do you think you could post a before and after pic of your CZ stock?  I don't have the guts to try something like that - unless maybe if there was a good aftermarket replacement stock available.  I fear I would need it because I would cut a little, oops then have to cut a little more to fix, then just a little more to make it even...kinda like trying to give yourself a haircut while looking in the mirror.

Offline Lawdog

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« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2005, 09:06:27 AM »
kenjs1,

Quote
Lawdog and others - hope I didn't step on toes re: Ruger accuracy. It is just that the CZ's are raved about on other forums like 24hourcampfire and huntamerica


You're not stepping on any toes.  I too have seen those other forums(HuntAmerica, Accurate Reloading, 24-HourCampFire, etc.) and if you ever notice that most of those that rave about CZ do so over and over and over and over.....(one of the many reasons I prefer Graybeards)  They have ran polls on those other forums and the results are quite different then any of their threads.  They show that 70% or more prefer the quality of workmanship and accuracy of the Ruger over the CZ.  Now I am not saying that CZ rifles are not worth what you pay for them or that they aren’t any good but in a side by side comparison the CZ comes up short in wood to metal fit, wood and metal finish.  Just my take on the two.  Lawdog
 :D
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Offline kenjs1

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« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2005, 04:25:37 AM »
Lawdog, have you seen the poll on this forum titled Kimber rifles?  CZ wasn't listed as a choice but at the time of writing my repsonse the Ruger has exactly 0% recommended. Go figure.

Offline Lawdog

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« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2005, 10:27:48 AM »
Quote from: kenjs1
Lawdog, have you seen the poll on this forum titled Kimber rifles?  CZ wasn't listed as a choice but at the time of writing my repsonse the Ruger has exactly 0% recommended. Go figure.


No I haven't as I have no interest in Kimber rifles.  Of the two that I have shot/handled I wouldn't own either.  Lawdog
 :D

P.S. - I looked over the poll on Kimber as you suggested and of the rifles picked I would place them in order like this;

Weatherby
Ruger
Savage
Winchester
Kimber
Other
Remington


I am taking into account quality of workmanship, Customer Service, accuracy and durability.  Funniest thing about the poll is that “OTHER” is winning with Kimber only getting 1 vote out of the 17 that has been cast.  LD
 :D
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Offline pc

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« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2005, 02:34:48 AM »
CZ's will out shoot Rugers no worries, cz big bores have a better lug set up on the action than do the Rugers.

Some people will payout on the cz regardless............................funnily enough it's the same people always knocking them.......gets boring because a lot of it's bull crap. Probably all factory rifles off the shelf have issues......un fortunately.

The Ruger big bores are not your average MK11, and the 1/4 rib integral to the barrel is a sweet touch, they should not be compared to there crappy stainless MK11 (a tough and serviceable rifle given)

It is bull crap that the cz mounting system is weak, don't listen to that. I have a .585 Nyati built on a 602 Brno which is is the old version of the cz 550 magnum and the mounting set up holds as well as anything and that thing makes the lott look like a pop gun.

Rigby & Co at one point used the Brno/CZ action to make there big bores on.

A lot of cz's find themselves in use in Africa on Dangerous game also one of AMERICAS finest smiths J.Belk talks very highly of cz's. Check below.

Have a read Lawdog !!

I will say though the Ruger Big Bores are a pretty rifle and I would take which ever fits you best.

Reposted by request-----
Written several months ago and I have seen nothing to change my mind.

-----Critique of the current CZ rifles--------

In the last 6 months the CZ’s that have come through by shop have been of higher quality, better, fit and better finished rifle with every critical dimension dead on the money.

The first of the “new” BRNO’s that I saw was the CZ 600, 602, and Fox models. This was twenty years ago. They had plenty going for them mechanically but looked they were finished with a cutting torch and sand blasted with road gravel……and they worked about as smooth.

Then my old partner started buying M527s in Hornet and 223 about 10 years ago. . I re-barrelled several of the 223s to Cheap shot and was pleased with them. The Hornets are a marvel.

Lately I’ve had several 550s in the shop for triggers, bedding, re-barrelling, etc. They last 3 #8217& I have  seen are truly good rifles.

Externally the profile is now true with the bore and polished by increased tool speed (and probably Tin coated) with better cooling. It looks like they increased RPM and reduced feeds. This is totally reversed to what other manufacturers are doing.

When you increase RPM you reduce tool life. That means it cost more. When you slow the feed rate the milled surface is much smoother. It also takes longer to machine an action. It cost more money.

The bolt to receiver tolerance has been cut in half. That allows the new polish to get even better as the two surfaces wear in.

Somehow they have found quarter-sawn Turkish walnut for stocks. It’s plain as a chair-leg, but it’s sho NUFF good wood. The finish looks like an oil spill, but it comes off easy enough.

The barrels are so good I wont sell the take-offs. I’ll use them for *something *.

The action is an alloy steel Mauser with some Winchester M70 features. Surprisingly, the CZ has the best of both actions incorporated in it with some truly well thought out features. The CZ is an inner ring, three lug, non-rotating, long extractor action. It’s a true controlled feed rifle with the smoothness of a pre-war M70 but with the lock time of a Remington and the safety margin of a “C” ring Mauser.

Criticisms—

The European style stock is ugly as a Tumble bug’s den but the new American classic is remarkably well done for a factory rifle.

I wish I could get them without their so-called checkering. It’s pretty crude, but at least it’s cut by a person.

I truly wish I could meet the brain-dead marketing moron that specified the whole left side of the action be carved with a *$%%^#} billboard. He should be whipped with nettles and made to listen to rap music from a boom box locked to his head til his kidneys melt.
A line of stamping is OK, if done well. This CZ, CNC milling machine writing would look better on the hull of a ship…..below the water line.

The muzzles look like they were crowned with the corner of a brick, but they still shoot good. A recrown is the first thing any CZ desperately needs.

The position of the trigger is wrong and the trigger itself looks like it belongs on a cap pistol. There isn’t ’t a good alternative. The entire trigger was miss-designed from the beginning. The way it is now is the only way the trigger is safe against bumps and jars. I'm working on it.

Trigger and Safety----

There should be an aftermarket trigger done, but since the CZ works so well and only the looks makes it horrid, an aftermarket trigger probably won’t be done. The single set is a very nice trigger and externally adjustable. The axis of operation should keep it more accurate than similar designs.
The sear contact patch is easily 50% greater than other override triggers. That's GOOD.

The safety is two position that locks the bolt down, that feature can be removed in 2 minutes if you have a bench grinder.
The safe on the M550 is a redesign of the Remington M700 but done in milled steel and over engineered to near bank vault standards. It blocks the sear and removes it from contact with the trigger AND cams the cocking piece back like a M70. It does not block the trigger and there is no trigger/safety interlock. There is a terrific 3-position safety made by PME if you prefer the vertical axis safeties.

Accuracy---

I’ve never heard of an inaccurate 527 or 550 rifle. The best group I’ve ever shot from a factory rifle (including a couple 40XBRs) was with a 527 sporter with a straight 8 scope!

I’ve not yet seen a bedding problem in a CZ, but they can be made better with glass bedding. I don’t free float anything I shoot but this action is as stiff as a Remington and will stand it if that’s what floats your boat.

These rifles are priced less than the value of the action and the other parts are too good to throw away just to use the action.

What a delicious dilemma.

If I was on investment brokerage house I'd issue a strong BUY recommendation..

Offline kenjs1

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« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2005, 08:11:25 AM »
Would be willing to bet that the "other" in the poll is a significant number of Tikka votes - and perhaps a smattering for CZ as well.  As for the Kimber  I have recently started to sense more of the opinions Lawdog expressed regarding them.

Offline poncaguy

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« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2005, 02:08:14 PM »
Ruger......one of the few things made in the USA anymore! :D