Author Topic: Weatherby Vanguard MOA (Read 1254 times)

lilabner · « **on:** August 18, 2005, 05:00:39 AM »

Weatherby has come up with the marketing idea of the year! For years, they've test fired all Vanguards (a 3 shot group at 100 yards) and nothing left the factory unless the group is 1.5 inches or less. Now they are taking the rifles that shoot under an inch in the test, putting a good quality pillar bedded synthetic stock on them, and offering them at a manufacturer's suggested retail of almost $800. (copy of test target included) Test firing is done by locking the barrelled action in a fixture - no stock, no human error involved. I've always thought MOA was measured by averaging the results of five 5 shot groups, allowing the barrel to cool between shots. I've worked with statistical measurements enough to know even a so-so rifle can come up with a sub MOA group once in a while - particularly a 3 shot group. Wonder if other rifle makers will follow suit.

Lawdog · « **Reply #1 on:** August 18, 2005, 11:26:24 AM »

lilabner,

Quote

Wonder if other rifle makers will follow suit.

Not when you have a few of them saying things like;

"Groups of around 4" are within company standards." or "Groups of around 3" or more are within the guidlines as set forth by the company.".

And the Weatherby guarantee does mean an average not an every so often. By the way all my Weatherby's(from .224 to .378) shoot better than MOA and that is 5 shot average. Lawdog

BuckTrucker · « **Reply #2 on:** August 18, 2005, 02:13:12 PM »

I held one of these new MOA's last week and it had a great feel to it. A little heavier than my T3 which makes it feel more substantial. Everything about it looked high quality except the cheesy trigger guard which had a huge MOA stamped into it. I'd have to replce that trigger guard if I got one. Check these out, you'll like 'em.

BT

Grubbs · « **Reply #3 on:** August 19, 2005, 05:03:21 AM »

Tikka has had a MOA guarantee for a while....before this Weatherby rifle came out.

Lawdog · « **Reply #4 on:** August 19, 2005, 09:13:31 AM »

Quote from: Grubbs

Tikka has had a MOA guarantee for a while....before this Weatherby rifle came out.

About two years. Before that everyone would say that their Sako/Tikka had a guarantee but it wasn't in writing. Weatherby's 1 1/2" guarantee has been in place for many, many years. Right after Sako/Tikka came out with their MOA guarantee is when Weatherby came out with their MOA in the Mark V. About a year ago they added the Vanguard to the line too. Lawdog

tscott · « **Reply #5 on:** August 20, 2005, 04:11:35 AM »

I bought a Vanguard 20 years ago... Came with target, and beautiful satin fancy walnut, in .270 $249! Put a cheapo Ramline on it, and made sure nothing touched the barrel. I think this is key for my Vanguards. I got a lot of deer rifles, but this Vanguard is by far my best all around rifle.
I guess it fits the mountain Rifle category. I just gotta believe those walmart Vanguards, could be set up the same way, for about the same price, 20 years hence!

kenscot · « **Reply #6 on:** August 20, 2005, 04:19:09 AM »

Lawdog,
Gee, I wonder what company you might be talking about when it comes to 4" groups? Could it the big green machine?

Lawdog · « **Reply #7 on:** August 20, 2005, 11:09:03 AM »

Quote from: kenscot

Lawdog,
Gee, I wonder what company you might be talking about when it comes to 4" groups? Could it the big green machine?

Sssssshhhhh!! I have been sworn to secrecy. :-D :-D But there is a lot of green in their company colors. Lawdog

tuck2 · « **Reply #8 on:** August 21, 2005, 11:31:49 PM »

Lawdog---I have a 221 thats got to go.Glass bedded the action, trigger pull adjusted from 6 1/2 lbs to 3 lbs,free floated the barrel,and had a gunsmith lapp the bolt locking lugs to get it to group under 1 1/4 inch groups at 100 yds.

oso45-70 · « **Reply #9 on:** August 22, 2005, 04:53:59 AM »

My My I must be the luckiest man alive, Got a safe full of Green machines that shoot great and are trouble free and all have 2 1/2 to 3lb triggers and will shoot MOA at any time and they didn't cost an arm or leg. never had to send one back to have any thing done to them. And they don't have the silly little button that they call a trigger either. Yep I sure am lucky, From 17 Rem to what ever they all work just like a rifle should. In at one and out the other------straight to the point of aim. Now thats what i call a rifle of class

..........Joe..........

pffft · « **Reply #10 on:** August 22, 2005, 06:34:31 AM »

Yeah, I don't know why all the criticism has to show up in every thread that gets started here. The mod gave all the critics a place to vent your criticisms, so use it, and leave the other threads alone.
Whether you know it or not, such determination borders on sickness, and it is only because you don't know the business as well as you think you do.
Nobody who knows better is being swayed by anything you critics have to say, so take it somewhere else, and leave these individual threads that want to talk about other things alone.

Lawdog · « **Reply #11 on:** August 22, 2005, 09:35:43 AM »

Quote from: pffft

Yeah, I don't know why all the criticism has to show up in every thread that gets started here. The mod gave all the critics a place to vent your criticisms, so use it, and leave the other threads alone.
Whether you know it or not, such determination borders on sickness, and it is only because you don't know the business as well as you think you do.
Nobody who knows better is being swayed by anything you critics have to say, so take it somewhere else, and leave these individual threads that want to talk about other things alone.

The reason the "criticism has to show up" is because hunters/shooters are tired of getting it put to them by some companies. In my first post I was commenting on 'lilabner's' question "Wonder if other rifle makers will follow suit" an I responded with my reply and the reason that as long as a few of them keep handing out statements like I mentioned. To which a reply was jokingly made to me so I jokingly replied back. Sorry if it hurt your feelings but sometimes the truth hurts. Small groups and tight lines to you. Lawdog

slayer · « **Reply #12 on:** August 22, 2005, 09:54:15 AM »

Well, here is another side of the story. I have owened and sold many Remington 700`s. Only reason I sold them, is because they were so damn accurate, it got boring shooting them. 700`s are super accurate out of the box, everyone I have owned. I shoot only muzzleloaders now, because of the super accurate 700`s in .270 Cal Jack.

pffft · « **Reply #13 on:** August 22, 2005, 04:09:01 PM »

That's too bad, Lawdog.
In a place where people look for legitimate answers, it's unfortunate that someone would never pass up an opportunity to be an idiot.
As such, one click will remove the entire site from the screen.
And fewer clicks means less revenue for paying the bills.

Lawdog · « **Reply #14 on:** August 23, 2005, 11:07:19 AM »

Quote from: pffft

That's too bad, Lawdog.
In a place where people look for legitimate answers, it's unfortunate that someone would never pass up an opportunity to be an idiot.
As such, one click will remove the entire site from the screen.
And fewer clicks means less revenue for paying the bills.

This is why here at Graybeards Outdoors we let the posters express their feelings/experiences as long as they don't start fighting/calling names/etc. They are allowed to post opinions on whatever manufacture of whatever product they feel the need to, either pro or con, without fear of personal attacks. Graybeard and I have had many suchs disagreements and I am betting that we could still spend many a week in a hunting camp without drawing any blood from each other. That is what makes Graybeard Outdoors the great site that it is. Head and shoulders above all the rest. Take care, small groups and tight lines to you. Lawdog

pffft · « **Reply #15 on:** August 23, 2005, 12:59:18 PM »

OK by me, Lawdog.
As far as I'm concerned, the matter is over and done with.
While picking up my new pea-shooters yesterday, I noticed he had just placed some new Vanguards in the rack. They look real nice and haven't changed much since they were called S&Ws. Possibly better in ways...

Lawdog · « **Reply #16 on:** August 24, 2005, 12:42:27 PM »

Quote from: pffft

OK by me, Lawdog.
As far as I'm concerned, the matter is over and done with.
While picking up my new pea-shooters yesterday, I noticed he had just placed some new Vanguards in the rack. They look real nice and haven't changed much since they were called S&Ws. Possibly better in ways...

Done, done.

I don't own a Vanguard YET! But that is very likely going to change in the VERY NEAR future. Got one of the new Sporter versions spotted in .257 Weatherby. Darn that thing is pretty in that blue and walnut version. Lawdog

Zachary · « **Reply #17 on:** August 25, 2005, 01:24:56 PM »

I would like to get one in a .270 Winchester (yes, just the "plain jane" Winchester, not WSM or Super Duper Magnum).

I have been looking for one in stainless, but have not been able to locate one yet - at least not at a great price.

Zachary

pffft · « **Reply #18 on:** August 25, 2005, 02:07:38 PM »

Wood models should be about same price. Other synthetics are $100 cheaper.
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=2685720

Might even have a better prices depending on the location.
I had a 270. Had no reason to sell it, but I did. Now I don't have it. :cry: BWAHHH!

lilabner · « **Reply #19 on:** August 26, 2005, 08:52:37 AM »

One thing I forgot to mention - seems to me like if Weatherby creams off the best Vanguards, your chances of getting a really great shooter at the regular Vanguard price are reduced. Before, it could easily happen - just the luck of the draw.

tscott · « **Reply #20 on:** August 26, 2005, 11:00:04 AM »

There must be a reason that the Weatherby tweaked Howa 1500 (Vanguard) now out sells the legendary accurate Mark V. Sure my MarkV
is more accurate than my Vanguard, but with weatherby upgrades to Vanguard (bolt shroud,etc) the slight difference in accuracy makes the Vanguard a terrific buy to me. I love the .270 Vanguard!!!

longwinters · « **Reply #21 on:** August 26, 2005, 01:03:49 PM »

I have looked at quite a few Vanguards. Can't say I see anything wrong with them. I have owned a couple Weatherby rifles and they were fine rifles. But it kind of bugs me that Weatherby sends their specs to Howa, has a rifle made and calls it a Weatherby. If I buy a Weatherby I WANT A WEATHERBY MADE BY WEATHERBY. Not a "Weatherby" made by somebody else. I suppose that this is due to some psychological weakness on my part but that is how I feel. Kind of like eating chicken fried steak. To me it aint chicken and it aint steak. It may taste great but it is not the real thing.

Long

Zachary · « **Reply #22 on:** August 27, 2005, 03:19:28 AM »

Quote from: pffft

Wood models should be about same price. Other synthetics are $100 cheaper.
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=2685720

Might even have a better prices depending on the location.
I had a 270. Had no reason to sell it, but I did. Now I don't have it. :cry: BWAHHH!

Pffft,

Those are the regular Vanguards, not the Sub-MOAs. If they WERE Sub-MOAs (at that price), then I would go to my local Wal-Mart and buy one immediately.

Zachary

Zachary · « **Reply #23 on:** August 27, 2005, 03:27:25 AM »

Quote from: longwinters

Kind of like eating chicken fried steak. To me it aint chicken and it aint steak. It may taste great but it is not the real thing.

Ahh, the beloved Chicken Fried Steak....the dish for Kings of the South. Growing up in Houston, I used to eat chicken fried steak about once a week. When my schooling and work took me up North, restaurants never even heard of it. When I told them that I wanted a chicken fried steak, they asked me "You mean you want fried chicken?"

Whenever I travel to Houston, I make it an effort to eat good Southern food. Is it the healthiest thing in the world? Nope. But sometimes its your heart and soul (in addition to you stomach) that really cry out for it. Kinda makes me feel like I'm back home. It's actually a very soothing and comforting feeling. :grin:

In addition to being a practicing lawyer, I am also a Vice-President and Director of a company up north. I have some serious issues with the head of the Company, but I do have an offer to work with another company in Houston. Believe me, I dream of the day to go back to Houston and live how I used to live - going hunting every weekend, not just once a year! (And, of course, to have Chicken fried steak whenever I want!

)

Zachary

Lawdog · « **Reply #24 on:** August 27, 2005, 12:41:04 PM »

Quote from: longwinters

If I buy a Weatherby I WANT A WEATHERBY MADE BY WEATHERBY. Not a "Weatherby" made by somebody else.

Long

Long,

Weatherby Mark V rifles haven't been made by Weatherby since 1958(the year after Roy Weatherby and engineer Fred Jennie developed the Mark V) when Roy Weatherby contracted with J. P. Sauer and Sohn in Germany to manufacture the Mark V for Weatherby. In 1973 Roy Weatherby contracted with the Miroku in Japan to manufacture the Mark V rifles. Then in 1995 Weatherby Mark V rifles came home to be manufactured by the Saco Defense Company in Saco, Maine where they are manufactured today. If you want a real Weatherby Mark V rifle made by Weatherby then you hav to get one made before 1958. I have three and buy everyone I can afford. Lawdog

longwinters · « **Reply #25 on:** August 27, 2005, 05:45:41 PM »

Lawdog,

That really bums me out. How many other rifles are not made by their brandname manufacturers?

Long

Lawdog · « **Reply #26 on:** August 28, 2005, 10:17:50 AM »

Long,

Don't get bummed out. The reasons why Roy Weatherby went from manufacturing his own rifles to contracting them out is simple. The first Weatherby rifles That Roy Weatherby made he used mostly Mauser actions, although Winchester, Remington, and Schultz & Larsen bolt actions were also used. Over the years, Roy Weatherby's rifle-making operation went from his garage to a small shop to a small factory. But as sales increased, it became obvious that he would have to stop building guns himself and find a manufacturer to do it for him. Roy Weatherby just didnt have the necessary funds or capital to build the size factory and tool it up for that kind of production. No one in the U.S. at that time, could make the Mark V rifle to the standard and at the price Roy Weatherby wanted and demanded. That is when he went to J. P. Sauer & Sohn in Germany. They were the company that established the Weatherby name. When Roy Weatherby contracted with the Japanese firm of Miroku it was a move to keep the cost down. The thing to keep in mind is that no matter who built the Weatherby Mark V rifles did so to the standards Roy Weatherby set down. No deviations were allowed. I have both German and Japanese made Weatherby Mark V Deluxes and you cant tell them apart. I am just glad that Weatherby rifles are now made in the USA Lawdog

lilabner · « **Reply #27 on:** August 28, 2005, 11:29:07 AM »

Getting back to the Vanguard MOA: I'm slow on the uptake! It just occurred to me that with the MOA program in place, the chances of lucking into a tackdriving Vanguard at the regular price are now slim. They are creaming off the best ones for the MOA program. Good for Weatherby, but bad for tightwads like me. Guess I'll stick with Savage.

Zachary · « **Reply #28 on:** August 28, 2005, 04:12:50 PM »

It's not just the barreled action, though. The new MOAs come in a much better stock that is pillar bedded. I don't know if the action is glass bedded but, if it is, then that also contributes greatly to the accuracy of a rifle.

When you consider that the new stock with pillar bedding costs at least about $200, then while your regular stainless Vanguard is, say, $500, then even if you bought it and did the same work, then it would cost at least as much as the MOA, except with the MOA you get the MOA guarantee.

If it were me, I'd rather get the MOA over the regular SS vanguard.

And as for sticking with Savage........well........let me just leave that alone.

Zachary

jmckinley · « **Reply #29 on:** August 29, 2005, 02:32:16 PM »

Genlemen I just finished reading this topic and became amused for no real reason except one. Most factory rigs will shoot 1-11/2 inches regardless of what make a quality arm is. My rem 7600 will meet that standard with 130 mCore lokts. I just put a Vanguard 300WSM on layaway for my primary Elk and Bear gun and hopefully after I get my Plastic rt knee in the spring a Barren Ground Caribou, God willing. The guns just says weatherby it's really a Howa as you already know. point being most of us working stiffs can't afford a Mark V and the Weatherby Vanguard at Sportmans Warehouse sell for $ 369.00, a wood stock version for $449 at Wally World here in Albuquerque. If a person wants to spend an extra $400 on an MOA be my guest. I can bed my rifle for $150 and still have less of an investment with a rifle that will put 3 rounds into less than a inch and have a darn good scope to boot. Besides most rifles can out shoot moost of the folks trying to shoot them. If that weren't so the aminals wouldn't have a chance. Plus sub MOA isn't needed to hunt with anyway. Bragging to you friends maybe. If I shoot 2 inches and you shoot 1 inch the animals will never know the differnence at any reasonable hunting distance.

Jess :-D