Obviously their are more people who want crossbow hunting

[Mike357mag]

Obviously their are more people who want crossbow hunting since more and more states are having it now. I don't need any acceptance from other hunters hunting is not a team sport.  Unlike wisconsin here in virginia their were more votes for, than against. Your insight is just your opinion and thats all.  Yes I'm set in my opinion but my opinion does not limit what other people can do.

Maybe they will have their own season but I bet it will be at the cost of archery season now.  Crossbow Could be the first three weeks of archery.
 Before you make the argument that states are doing this make revenue, yeah your right but if nobody was interested in it they would not sell any extra license.

Mike H

[Mike357mag]

This is a never ending argument done every year so lets just drop it and agree to disagree.

Mike H

[jh45gun]

Why should crossbows be set apart from archery seasons? They both shoot a arrow and they both have the same range. Only difference is one is vertical and one horizontal and one can be held back but then compounds can be held back easier than traditional bows so there are differences amoung them all but bottom line is they all shoot arrows for a kill zone for most folks 40 yards and under with 2o to 30 being more realistic. Most of that folks that badmouth crossbows never shot one yet run off at the mouth if they did shoot one and more imprortant yet hunt with one they would see it is not automatic thing with a crossbow. There still are challanges to over come using either system. Jim

[jsteele]

Why should crossbows be set apart from archery seasons?

That's easy .... they are not bows.  Archery season is for bow and arrow, not crossbow and bolt.

You'll get a lot more support from bowhunters if you ask for your own season, rather than trying to overtake theirs.

[jh45gun]

Why should crossbows be set apart from archery seasons?

That's easy .... they are not bows.  Archery season is for bow and arrow, not crossbow and bolt.

You'll get a lot more support from bowhunters if you ask for your own season, rather than trying to overtake theirs.

You are dead wrong it is a bow and it shoots a arrow why is that so hard for bow hunters to understand well I have figured it out they want no other folks in the woods to compete with them and they are the most selfish group I have ever seen as a whole! Makes me ashamed to have been a bow hunter for years. The only saving salvation I had was I never followed the thinking the average bow hunter did and I never jointed their almost anti any thing else groups either.  I always looked at bow hunting as a extension to kill a deer with a longer season in nicer weather. I never really got into the politics until I started hunting with a xbow. Archery season should be just that if it shoots a arrow and is a bow or xbow than it should be legal. Bolts are arrows the nocks may be different but every thing else is the same. Put a vertical bow or a xbow at a range and shoot the same distance the results will be very close to the same with the xbow losing ground to the bow at longer distances. No matter how much the bowhunters want to argue it is a bow and they have damn short memories as these same folks had to fight to get the compound recognized when every one used recurve and long bows. Talk about  hypocrites

[dukkillr]

I disagree... I believe I have a realitic objection... I've become more adament in my views by being repeatedly insulted here by those who disagree... I've never been convinced by being insulted.  

To me it's quite simple.  A bow must be held at draw by the hunter.  If you don't have to draw and hold it then I won't support it during bow season.  If it weren't so hard to enforce I'd like to see a percent let-off limit.  

Since I know what your next 3 arguments are, I'll save the time:

1) I'm aware that the range isn't 100 yards on a crossbow
2) Yes, I've shot one.  I found it much easier to pick up than handbows
3) I don't buy the "more people in the woods" or "bowhunters just want time to themselves" argument.  I hunt large pieces of private property.  Other hunters never play in my decisions.  

If you want to hunt during bow season, use a bow.  If you want to hunt with an xbow I wish you luck getting a season.

I've managed to repeatedly explain my theory without making insulting comments directed at those with whom I disagree.  I'd hope you could do the same.

[Digger]

dukkillr
I am disabled and in a wheelchair now for 1 1/2 years. I cant use a compound bow anymore , so your saying that  I should stay out of your woods and not shoot any of your deer until I return to full health. If crossbows are a legal hunting tool it should be used. As far as not insulting us  I believe you have by coming to this xbow site and giving us your opinion. Have a look at the way Bow hunter sites jump on a crossbower and scream and throw insults when we post on their site and you expect us to be calm and kiss your backside for telling us how were wrong. I don't think so.
 I've got a crossbow season and it takes up all of your season.  TOO BAD. Do you honestly think your opinion on a xbow site going to change going to make us change and throw down our bows and rush out and buy a vert bow, sh*t I've got 5 compounds hanging in my den, your certainly not going to make me use them

Digger

[dukkillr]

Oh no, absolutely not.  I'm sorry.  I fully support disabled hunters using xbows.  I'm terribly sorry for not saying that again here...  I had said it previously but then the response to my post was in a new thread.

I don't care what others have done, until I say something insulting to you I expect this discussion to be handled in an adult manner that respects the opinions of others.  

I couldn't care less whether I change your opinion.  

I don't feel like I lose if you can hunt during bow season.  This isn't personal.  I just don't feel xbows belong in archery season.  I'm trying to defend the opinion of the majority of outdoorsmen.  I said before, other hunters do not influence my feeling on this subject.

[Digger]

dukkillr, If you were to become disabled tomorrow and couldn't pull the string back on your vert bow, would you give up hunting in the archery season altogether or would you be at your doctors office getting a crossbow cetificate. I would like to think you would stick to your beliefs that xbows don't belong with real hunters and just hunt during general firearm season.
I certainly hope you never have to find yourself in that position as I did.

Digger

[jh45gun]

one more thing to add every one says that crossbows are easier to use well I am hot entirely sold on that as yea maybe shooting a target but when hunting you still have the pitfalls of unseen branches and unseen grass ect that tend to turn your arrows so they are not a given. Still if they are more easier to use for some why not let them use them?  By the way duckillr I also am disabled and can legally hunt with a crossbow though I am not in a wheelchair like Digger is. Anyway my main point here is if Crossbows make some folks better shots let them use them. I would rather see a xbow shooter kill the deer he shoots instead of a irresponsible bow hunter who does not practice enough wound every thing he shoots except for a few that he luckly harvest and you and I know there are too darn many out there that practice that approach. Yea I know what you are going to say next well so do gun hunters yea that unfortunatly is true. But it is the bow hunters that give us the song and dance all the time of being such great hunters when some in their ranks are far from it so if a crossbow helped these folks become better shots and more responsible hunters so be it. Yea I know some folks may never be helped in their hunting practices but this could help some.

[dukkillr]

I've said it twice now, but I'll say it again.  If using an xbow is the only way you can hunt due to a disability then I FULLY SUPPORT you using them.  It's always better to hunt than not hunt.  The issue is able bodied men and women who could use a "bow" to hunt during "bowseason".

[jh45gun]

I know where your coming from Dukkillr. My point is some of these folks may be able to use a xbow better than a bow if it makes less wounded animals I am for it. Of course you have to practice with both unfortunatly some will never do that but if they can shoot a xbow better it is a better thing for the animals hunted. Every one seems to agree that the elderly and disabled should be able to use xbows. Thats great but I feel that any one else wants to use one they should be able to its almost like REVERSE Discrimination. Jim

[Mike357mag]

this thread was started by mistake it was a response to dukkillr's resposnses in "crossbow prejudice".  I was stateing it would be fine to have them in a seperate season but lets make it the first 3 weeks that would have been regular archery season.  Since most people are only complaining out of greed, why else would anyone care what type of bow you us.

Mike H

[jsteele]

Every one seems to agree that the elderly and disabled should be able to use xbows. Thats great but I feel that any one else wants to use one they should be able to its almost like REVERSE Discrimination. Jim

How so?

Older and disabled hunters need an advantage to get them back in the game.

How is it discrimination that able bodied hunters be required to use a BOW to hunt in bowseason?  I did it....they can too.

Very few bowhunters are opposed to xbows for those who physically cannot draw a bow.

It is those who could draw a bow, and choose not to, that are causing the friction.

[jh45gun]

I have killed a lot of deer with a bow "no brag just fact" as old Walter Brennen would say.  I have killed two since switching to a xbow a couple of years ago. To be honest I find shooting either the bow or the xbow I get the same  amount of accuracy. Lets face it the use of releases and high let off compounds really does not make bowhunting any harder than using a xbow so why discrimiate between the two there is no reason to. The drawing of the bow arguement really does not hold water as you move when you shoot a xbow too and most bow hunters use releases these days and they take a lot of the work out of drawing a bow. With the high let offs these days it is easier yet. If you have a hard time drawing a bow than guess what you got the darn thing set too heavy. Both take practice to use proficiently no matter what the anti xbow users say.

[jsteele]

Eesh.

I don't want to argue with the moderator, but I can't let that one go.

I have killed deer at 7 yards from a treestand with a bow.  I have killed deer at 9 yds from the ground with a gun.  Want to guess which one had me more nervous about detection?

It is a world easier to shoot a crossbow without detection than a bow.  To say otherwise is just plain being untruthful.  Everyone has eased a gun up with a buck close, and a crossbows is no different....now try drawing on an 8 pt who's looking for the rival he just heard grunt when he's 13 yards out.

Give me a break.  There are advantages to an xbow that the challenged may deserve, but us run of the mill hunters don't.  Why cover for them?

[dukkillr]

Is the claim that you are just as likely to be seen aiming a rifle or xbow at a potential target than you are drawing, holding, and aiming with a hand bow?  If so, that's not only wrong, but insane.  The more movement the more likely to be seen.  With a rifle or xbow you can aim at the target the moment you see it, even if it's 500 yards away.  Slowly follow that target until it's in range and no significant movements are required at close range.

With a handbow you must draw with the animal close because you cannot hold at draw for extended periods of time.  This means in addition to aiming a bowhunter must draw and hold (physical requirements) without being seen.  

I have problem respecting the honesty of someone who would claim there is no difference here.

[jh45gun]

As I have told you before I am disabled. I also do not shoot from a vehicle I get out of it even though I could if I wanted to as I have a state permit. I shot a 5 point buck last year with my 308 Encore pistol  that totally ignored me even though I was only 20 yards away. Yea some deer are skittish but a lot of others are dumb as rocks or curious and do not spook like others do.  I have also shot others with my bow getting out of the vehicle and drawing and shooting with them unconcerned as all get out. This was before I was disabled and out bird hunting with the bow along and coming across a deer on a legal road to hunt like a fire lane old logging trail ect. So while I would say that yea some deer are skittish others almost beg you to shoot them and I am talking bucks too.  I missed a chance at a wall hanger about 10 years ago because the nock came off my arrow due to some bad glue which was my fault I should have probably bought new glue but it was a lesson learned. That buck was less than 20 yards away and just looked at me while I tried to nock an other arrow finally he left and not fast either but did go out of bow range. Whitetails are not always the super ghost of the woods as every one would always have you believe. Some are so curious or dumb they really just about commit suicide.  :eek:   Oh and Disagree all you want heck your opinion here is as good as any one elses. If we all agreed it would get kinda boring here at GB's . So respect my honesty well thats up to you but every thing I have said above here is true. My legs have been bad long before I ever got a disabled permit so I mostly hunted the edges where access was easier for me.  I had surgery when I was a teen as one leg was longer than the other and I had to have a large lift on my one shoe so I could walk right. The surgery corrected it enough so I could walk with out a lift but I still had a hard time walking on uneven ground and even had doctors orders that I refrain from such activity but I like to hunt a lot so I try to walk the best I could where I could. Yea that  may not be as "Hunter orientated" as some would like maybe but it was the only way I could enjoy hunting.  That also gave me a perspective that even though I never hunted from trees or could not get far into the woods I never had to the deer would come to me or where I could access them and while some you cannot get near this is true others let me get shooting so movement is not always a bad thing. I think if more folks would hunt from the ground again they may get some easier shooting. Deer instinctivly know I think that man does not normally belong in trees and that spooks them more than if your on the ground as they see that kind of activity all the time.
Again you want to argue with me go for it I sure will not get upset I will however may disagree with you on some subjects but I am sure there are others we probably will agree on. Jim

[379 Peterbilt]

I suspect the main reason that the bow hunters dont want to ever see a crossbow hunt materialize is because they dont want the extra competition. Is there any other reason? This aguement does nothing but divide hunters. I have seen the same scat played out many times. Usually its resident vs non resident seasons or other restrictive game management measures. Always a "me, not you" type of issue.


In regards to weapons; killing is killing.

[dukkillr]

In regards to weapons; killing is killing.

So we should allow rifles during bow season?  Why not just do away with special seasons all together?  We'll just let anyone use whatever they want all fall.  

My reasoning has nothing to do with competition, it has to do with protecting and respecting a way of hunting.  I consider the sport of bowhunting to be both physically and mentally challenging.  I believe xbows give an advantage that makes that physical challenge lessened to such an extent as to be negligable.  That's why they belong in the seasons with other non-physical means of hunting (rifle and/or muzzle loader).

If this issue is about "dividing hunters" perhaps the minority should give way to the majority on the issue.  Since most every survey overwhelming opposes xbows during bow season I think we know who would win.  

Bow season is for bowhunting.

[379 Peterbilt]

So we should allow rifles during bow season?  Why not just do away with special seasons all together?  We'll just let anyone use whatever they want all fall.

Nobody was talking guns durring bow season. I thought we were discussing legalizing xbows durring bow season.  

My reasoning has nothing to do with competition, it has to do with protecting and respecting a way of hunting.

I think you feel the same way that the tradbow crowd felt when compounds came along.

If this issue is about "dividing hunters" perhaps the minority should give way to the majority on the issue.

Minority should not rule, I'll give you that. But....

Since most every survey overwhelming opposes xbows during bow season I think we know who would win.

Surveys from bow hunters? Of course  there is opposition from the bow hunting fellas. They do not want any more competition.

Bow season is for bowhunting.

As long as it is the "proper" type of bow, right? HAha

Dukkillr, you seem quite passionate about holding on to your way of bow hunting. Thats comendable that you feel strongly about something important to you. But to be against xbows because you feel they are slightly less pysically demanding is almost absurd. Of course more and more folks want them to be allowed--They make life easier, just like any other technological advance in hunting. Lets go back 500 years and look at the technology then compared with todays. Quite a huge difference huh?

Again, I feel that the bow crowd does not want the extra competition. There are many excuses that can be used to make a case for not allowing xbows durring "traditional" ( there's a loose term ) bow season, but you can't tell me competition isn't one of the underlying factors at play. Maybe jealousy too, I suspect.

When I wrote killing is killing, I meant exactly that. We all kill animals, some just have different weapons prefrences, and are thereby forced into certain times of year in which we can employ their use.

I offer this only as good debate, nothing more.

[Ray P]

So we should allow rifles during bow season?  Why not just do away with special seasons all together?  We'll just let anyone use whatever they want all fall.

 

I love it!  Carl Popper as game warden!

I could support that.  Why just fall?  No season, no bag limits; like the cartoon said "...and to hell with the limits!"  

Can't find the cartoon, but this is close: http://forums.photobucket.com/showthread.php?t=3915

[jh45gun]

Na we need seasons just to keep some honest but it has been shown in the states that allow it that the crossbow really has not made a impact on numbers or hunting as compared to other ways of hunting including bow hunting. In other words where allowed by every one crossbows have not hurt the deer herd one bit. Jim

[dukkillr]

The surveys, including the one from wisconsin, are of all hunters, not bow hunters.  Will that change your feelings?  No.  You'll just keep saying it's about being selfish.  I'll keep saying it's about drawing a line and protecting tradition.  I've never cared a hoot about this debate until this week.  The response of the pro-xbow crowd is the reason I've become so passionate.  I hate being insulted into compliance.

[jsteele]

In other words where allowed by every one crossbows have not hurt the deer herd one bit. Jim

See, you need to be fair and honest.

Xbows don't hurt the herd in OH because they only have a 7-9 day shotgun season.

They don't hurt the herd in AR because bowhunters and crossbow hunters combined don't total 70,000.


Studies in MI, that already has 315,000 BOWhunters, show that adding xbows would result in an archery buck harvest so great that the season would need to be shortened.

Everything needs to be in context to be relevant.

[379 Peterbilt]

* Please construe my comments as meerly friendly debate*

I respect the views of those out there who are not in favor of seeing an xbow hunt come to fruitation. Some of you  make almost good arguements on why they should not be allowed durring "bow" season, or any other season for that matter. Some of you will even admit that its ok for xbows to be legal provided its not durring "bow season" Hmmm.

I see some of your points as semi-valid when talking of reasons why to exclude xbows. The biggest thing you have in your favor is the numbers'surveys. I can tell you why that is---( competition ) Its human nature in its finest

With all due respect, you CANNOT convice me that competition is not an underlying factor at play here. We can talk "safety", "majority rules", "ease of use", and other reasons to exclude xbows, but please dont dismiss competition as the driving force to keep them out.

If we were disscussing the idea of using compound bows durring rifle season, this thread would be at the bottom of the page. Why is that you ask? Because bows cant compete with high powered rifles. Nothing more.

I respect everones opinion here. I just hope that some folks would come out and admit the real reasons they dislike xbow seasons.

Thanks for the good debate, and no hard feelings.

Good hunting !!

[379 Peterbilt]

I forgot to add in my post above that if xbows are struck down due to "majotity rules" I am fine with that, even if I am in the minority.

Ya cant win them all, but I made my point/opinion.

Good hunting !!

[Digger]

dukkillr, please explain the long and honorable tradition of the compound bow in hunting, tell me about all the tradition of this bow before 1974 please.  
We could have used you when we tried to keep compound bows out of our woods because they would have decimated the deer population. You try holding the string back on a 50 or 60 lb long bow or recurve bow  when a compound  with letoff of 60 or 65% could be held  for 1/2 an hour or more while waiting to take a shot. If compound are good enough for archery hunting then so is the crossbow.

Digger

[jsteele]

Digger,

Clearly, you have never shot a compound bow in your life.

I'll give you $100 today if you can hold back a 60# bow with 80% letoff for "1/2 hour or more"!


I've seen a lot of hyperbole over xbows vs compounds in the last few months, but this one is the all time champion.

[dukkillr]

I'll add another $100 to that.  I'm young, in good shape, and practice quite a bit, and I start to shake pretty bad after a couple of minutes.  

This also answers Digger's question.  To me "bowhunting" requires some physical skill beyond aiming and shooting.  It requires drawing, holding, and aiming, all within close proximity of the target.  Xbow hunting requires only the aiming and shooting that rifle hunting requires.  That's where I draw the line.  I'm just as opposed to drawlocks on handbows as I am to xbows during archery season, for the same reason.  

This quote is from the infamous Mullaney Report:

The hand held bow has one characteristic that distinguishes it from a crossbow or any type of firearm. The internal ballistics are a function of the shooter, his or her physical geometry and capabilities, shooting form, consistency and reaction to stress and trauma. In the crossbow and firearms, the internal ballistics are fixed. The action of the shooter in triggering a release of energy does nothing more than initiate a process that is consistent and repetitive. The hand held bow is different. Every action of the shooter contributes something either positive or negative to the interior ballistic process. As the interior ballistics vary, so do the exterior ballistics. Shooting the hand held bow and arrow is much more complicated than aiming a fixed system of ballistics and touching off the energy discharge. The total energy to draw, hold and release the bow must come directly and unassisted from the shooter's muscle power.

Finally I'll thank the moderator for opening this thread back up.  I'm glad a discussion, started by others and breaking no rules, can continue despite the childish behavior of others.  I can't help but wonder what motivates someone to try and silence their critics.