Standard Velocity Or Magnum Velocity For Big Game Hunting

[Lawdog]

Standard Velocity = under 2,900 fps.
Magnum Velocity = over 2,900 fps.

What are your reasons for choosing either for hunting big game?

For me the terrain I hunt many times required shots must be taken over longer ranges to collect that trophy.  Around here the range can be from point blank to as far away as you are capable of.  So I choose “magnum” velocity cartridges for their flatter trajectory.  Sure a lot of this country is brush/timber but when that “buck of a lifetime” is ready to go over that ridge yonder(three ridges away) with no chance to get closer it’s nice to have a cartridge/rifle that will make that shot.  Lawdog
 

[Graybeard]

Magnums really add nothing of value. If you can't get it done with a '06 based round in North America you need to learn to hunt.  :eek: Another 100 or even 200 fps just doesn't have any real world effect. You'll be lucky if 200 extra fps means an inch at 400 yards. Anyone who believes that is an advantage is kidding only themselves.

Please don't talk to me about paper energy. It is meaningless.

[Zachary]

It also depends on the bullet diameter and bullet weight.

But all else being equal, the answer to your questing (in my opinion and experience) depends on the DISTANCE, the GAME, and the Shooter's LIMITATIONS.

If you shoot a .308 caliber 180 grain bullet with a muzzle velocity at 2,900 FPS at ELK, then your shots should probably be limited to, say, about 200 yards.  Given the same bullet, if you want to strech your distance, then the velocity can increase accordingly.

That said,  you can kill an elk at 100 yards with a .180 Nosler Partition in a 308 Winchester just as effectively as you can with the same bullet in a .300 Rem. Ultra Mag at about 400 yards.

The thing is that you cannot always predict the distance at which you will shoot the elk.  It could be 50 yards, or it could be 400 yards.  This is where one's personal shooting skills come into play.  If you cannot shoot Elk effectively at distances over 300 yards, then you do not need the extra power and recoil from a .300 Rem Ultra Mag.  In this case, a .30-06 Springfield would probably do.

So, all else being equal, the answer depends on the Distance, the Game, and the shooter's limitations.

Zachary

[Graybeard]

If you shoot a .308 caliber 180 grain bullet with a muzzle velocity at 2,900 FPS at ELK, then your shots should probably be limited to, say, about 200 yards. Given the same bullet, if you want to strech your distance, then the velocity can increase accordingly.

Aarrgh, I ain't believing Zach just said that.  :eek:  :eek:  :eek:

Do you really mean to say the .300 Win. Mag. is ONLY a 200 yard elk round? That is what you just said ya know.

Looking in the Hornady manual they show only TWO loads that reach 3000 fps with 180s for it. All the rest only reach 2900 fps. Nothing in the .308 Win. or .30-06 even come close to 2900 fps.

So what you are saying is the .300 Win. Mag is a 200 yard elk round and the .300 RUM is a what 500 yard round? You have got to be kidding me.    10% more velocity does that? Wow.

I reckon that means if we use a .308 Win. or .30-06 we'd best not shoot past 50 yards then don't it? Man those critters sure have gotten tough since days of old when folks killed them to 100 yards or beyond with muzzle loaders. Oh wait folks still do don't they? Hmmm. Wonder how they do that?

[kyhunter308]

   

[dukkillr]

Ah, the old, "people have been killing X with bullet type Y for 100 years..." argument.  Graybeard is right, of course.  People have been killing elk for hundreds of years with big, slow balls of lead.  Here's the problem though, people have been doing math by hand for hundreds of years to.  Does that mean the calculator isn't a good thing?  Most people will get the right answer, more often, and much faster with a little technology.

You can kill elk very well with an 06 or 30-30 or whatever, but that doesn't make those rounds better or even equal to, a magnum.  

People should use whatever they want (within ethical and legal limits) but lets not get carried away saying that just because a round has killed for years that it's impossible to improve upon that.

[Zachary]

If you shoot a .308 caliber 180 grain bullet with a muzzle velocity at 2,900 FPS at ELK, then your shots should probably be limited to, say, about 200 yards. Given the same bullet, if you want to strech your distance, then the velocity can increase accordingly.

Aarrgh, I ain't believing Zach just said that.  :eek:  :eek:  :eek:

Do you really mean to say the .300 Win. Mag. is ONLY a 200 yard elk round? That is what you just said ya know.

  No, GB, I never said anything about a .300 Win Mag. Off the top of my head, I don't know what the velocity would be for a 180 grain .308 Winchester, .30-06, .300 Win Mag, .300 Wby Mag, or .300 Ultra Mag.  I think the reason that you are mentioning a .300 Win Mag is probably because it shoots a 180 bullet at 2,900 FPS?  If yes, then now I understand what you are talking about and I certainly agree.

I would never say that a .300 Win Mag is only a 200 yard elk gun - that would be just plain ridiculous and worthy of a belt whipping. :-D   I stand corrected on the velocity figures, but, to make my point more simple, and perhaps applicable, let's just say that a .308 Winchester with a 180 grain bullet can effectively put down an elk at 200 yards, and that a .300 Ultra Mag can extend that range to, say, 400 yards.  Again, don't look at these specific numbers, just take note of the idea in general.  

Granted, I too do not give 100% merit to the energy numbers, but that is not to say that they are worth 0% either.  Velocity is, IMHO, more important because at least we can all agree, from what bullet manufacturers tell us, that bullets need at least 2,000 FPS to cause somewhat sufficient expansion.  Again, I don't know the specific velocity numbers of specific cartridges right off the top of my head, but if a 180 grain bullet from a .308 Winchester only has a velocity of, say, 2,000 FPS at 200 yards, then I would say that such a distance would be the limit.  Of course a .300 Win Mag would have higher velocity, but I'm not sure how much, but I generally look at the velocity figures before I look at the energy figures. (and of course a bullet's sectional density and diameter is also important.).

So don't worry GB, I just didn't explain myself as well as I could. :grin:

Zachary

[victorcharlie]

GreyBeard is right on about  this one........it's a matter of safety to me.  The woods around here are crowded, and rural homes every where.  I want my bullet to travel a few hundred yards and drop like a rock.  

That a side, there is nothing around these parts that require a magnum, but by the 2900 fps boundry, I guess my .243 and .270 are magnums?  I'm not sure velocity is what needs to be looked at as far as determining what constitutes a "magnum".

[Redhawk1]

GreyBeard is right on about  this one........it's a matter of safety to me.  The woods around here are crowded, and rural homes every where.  I want my bullet to travel a few hundred yards and drop like a rock.  

That a side, there is nothing around these parts that require a magnum, but by the 2900 fps boundry, I guess my .243 and .270 are magnums?  I'm not sure velocity is what needs to be looked at as far as determining what constitutes a "magnum".

Not everyone just hunts in there back yard. I travel all over to hunt and like the idea of the extra velocity.  Now when I hunt in Delaware my shotgun with a rifled slug barrel works great, no 300 Win Mag or even a 30-06 needed.  But it all fall back on what we choose to use, it should not be a real concern if you don't think a Magnum round is needed.  
Sometimes I think hunters are our own worst enemy.

[Lone Star]

Standard Velocity = under 2,900 fps.
Magnum Velocity = over 2,900 fps.

What are your reasons for choosing either for hunting big game?

Now back to the original question rather than criticizing other's choices.  :wink:

I hunt east Texas deer with my .250 Savage XP, and it works great out to 150-200 yards on our smaller deer.  But when I hunt antelope or bigger mulies out north or west the Savage is put away and a .257 Weatherby comes out.  The only question remaining is which rifle do I take - the Ruger #1 or the Mk V.  The much higher velocity of the magnum increases bullet energy substantially, flattens the trajectory and reduces wind drift - the latter can be a real consideration in some conditions.  The .250 is not a 350 yard antelope cartridge IMO, while the .257 Weatherby is.  Say what you will, but sometimes velocity matters....a lot.

[Rummer]

For the kind of hunting I do, there is no need for me to use a magnum.  

I would feel uncomfortable shooting at anything more than 200 yards away.  I imagine that within 200 yards there isn't a critter out there, with with the exception of Grizzly/Brown bears, that can't be taken with a standard cartridge.

I am not saying I would never buy a magnum, but I just don't see the need for one.  If you think you need one, then buy one.

Most guys who hunt don't shoot their chosen rifle very much.  I know I don't get to the range as often as I would like (one of the reasons I don't bother with magnums), so what I am about to ask isn't a shot at magnum users, but what proportion of guys who buy magnums specifically to take advantage of the flat trajectory and extended range ever practice from field positions at 300, 400 or 500 yards?  

Rummer

[Zachary]

I went to Federal Cartridge's website to take a look at velocities for the .308 Winchester, .30-06, .300 Win Mag, and .300 Ultra Mag.  Now I understand, and thus confirm, what GB was saying about the .300 Win Mag.  I never said .300 Win Mag, but he assumed (and correctly) that it must have been a .300 Win Mag because it is the cartridge that hits around 2,900 FPS.

With 180 grain bullets, the .300 Win Mag is in the 2,900 FPS range (actually 2,960).  I should have known that the .308 Winchester is lower.  In fact, the muzzle velocities are as follows:

.308 Winchester - 2,620
.30-06 - 2,700
.300 Win Mag - 2,960
.300 Ultra Mag - 3,250

So, it turns out that I was way off in my thinking that a .308 Winchester was 2,900 FPS - I definately should have known better.  Actually, I'm kinda embarassed.  I guess everybody is entitled to a boo boo every now and then.   In fact, with all the stuff I have to deal with recently, I'm surprised that I still know the difference between a bolt action rifle and a semi-auto.

Anyhow, the above listed cartridges will give you about 2,000 fps at about the following ranges:

.308 - 300 yards
.30-06 - 350
.300 WM - 400
.300 Ultra - 500+

Again, these are approximate numbers.  Even so, it is apparent that a .308 can actually hit about 2,000 fps at about 300 yards.  A .30-06 is not that far off at 350 yards, while the .300 Win Mag is about 400.  So the difference between the "little" .308 Winchester and .300 Win Mag really isn't as big as all the magazine writer's hype would lead you to believe.  Is it a difference?  Yes.  Is it a world of a difference?  I don't think so.

Again, the point I was trying to make is that magnums just extend your range a bit, but it's not THAT big of a deal.

Zachary

[t3shooter]

The question shouldn't be "Is a magnum needed for a once in a lifetime shot?", it should be, if you have a magnum, are you a good enough shot to make any use of the bit of extra reach it can provide for you?  For a deer sized animal, a 7-08 or 270 will kill just as fast and effectively as any magnum at 500 yds if it hits the right spot, and at that range, the person who can hit with a magnum can hit with the standard calibre, but the person who can't hit with the standard calibre isn't going to get any benefit out of using a magnum.  Anyways, if you can shoot it well and practice at the ranges you may have to shoot at, a magnum may provide a real advantage with it's extra downrange energy, if you can't, why contend with the extra recoil and blast just to miss or make a poor/unethical shot?

[Dave in WV]

The question is "what would I choose to use?" I choose non-magnums. I'm not an accomplished long rang shot and I'm recoil sensitive to a degree.  If a hunter is disciplined and is a sportsman that hunter will not try to exceed their ability. If one can make that shot for the buck of a life time with reasonable certainty my hat is off to them. As I have mentioned I consider myself a bit recoil sensitive. That said, IF I bought a magnum it would be for more knock down power not longer range so it would have to be at least a .338 WM. My personal belief is safety and good sportsmanship come first and filling my tag is after that. I don't see myself better than anyone else. I help teach hunting safety so I try to live what I teach. It's not as easy at times as it sounds. :wink:

[Graybeard]

I bought a magnum ONCE! A R700 (what else) .300 Win. Mag. That sucker kicked the snot out of me. After less than two boxes of ammo thru it I traded it for a .270 Win. (anothegr R700 what else) and never looked back. Won't never again be no magnums coming home with this old fat boy. The shoulder is too tender for them.

I'm not great shakes as a long range shooter cuz I don't have the place to practice it. Hit the prairie dogs OK out to about 450 yards in June when I knew the range or walked them in. But prairie dogs ain't big game either and just cuz you can hit a PD off a bench don't mean you can hit a deer from a field rest at same range.

If I'm in a really solid rest I'd not really hesitate on a 300 yard shot on big game depending on the wind. But if the cross hairs are wavering or the wind is howling? Nope I'd call it too far and hold the shot.

[Redhawk1]

Another reason for my 300 Win Mag choice is. One I hunted in Alaska for Caribou, also Grizzles in the area. I want the extra power there. The shots out there are from close up to what ever you think you can make the shot at. I took my Caribou at over 300 yards, I was glad I had my 300 Win Mag.  

[jro45]

I don't think the 30-06 can do what the 300 win mag can do at long distance. I'm not saying that with an over the hill shot tha 06 couldn't get there. It also would have lost a lot of power.
I really don't care if someone doesn't like what I shoot I think that would be up to me with all my experience.

[beemanbeme]

I have hunted and do hunt using both the magnums and standard cartridges and they both have their place.  And usefulness.  PROPERLY USED, the magnums do give you a SLIGHT amount of additional reach and a bit more thump.  And that is by using heavy for calibre bullets.  The magnums were originally designed to send a greater weight of metal downrange while maintaining a useful velocity.  
Using a magnum with a light for calibre bullet and cranking it up to boy howdy look what I can do is really pointless except for whatever ego stroking it does.  Kinda like putting a set of hot pipes on a VW.  

To address two post here, "a trophy deer three ridges away with no chance of getting closer":  Can't get closer??? I would suggest a brush up on your hunting skills.  And if you can't get closer how did you plan to retrieve the trophy?  

"I went with the magnum 'cause I was in grizzly country".  You would have been much safer with a 30-06 or even a .308 loaded with 180 or 200 grain bullets than some boy howdy magnum loaded with light for calibre bullets at warp speed.

One of the alledged advantages of the magnum is its supposed flatter trajectory.  It just isn't so from a hunting stand point.  With a 300 yard zero, a 180 grain bullet, pushed @ 2800fps from a 30-06 will drop an extra 2 inches at 400 yards when compared to  the same bullet shot from a 300WM @3100fps.  However, too many folks have bought into that hype and as a result, are enticed into all sorts of poke and hope shots that they're not capable of.  Like the magic bullets touted by some, the magnums do not compensate for lousy shot placement nor poor hunting skills.

Elmer Keith summed it up nicely when he said, "when you start over 2900fps, you don't need more speed, you need more bullet."  Sound advice.  And, if followed, makes the magnums a useful tool.  

I learnt the other day that you can call someone stupid and cheap if they don't use the same bullet you do IF you add a smilie face.  So here's mine-----  

[Lone Star]

Elmer Keith - I remember him.  He's the guy large caliber fans always quote to support their beliefs.  He also said that the .30-06 was suitable only for smaller deer, certainly not elk, caribou, etc.    Yep, lots of credibility there.....

[ca dunn]

Hey guys,,

FORD or CHEVY?

[SuperstitionCoues]

I gotta side with the magnum velocity veiwpoint here.  Why?  
These reasons and not in this priority: Arizona, Burn Scars and Habitat Restoration = long distances and little cover.

I think everyone's answer has been defined by their experiences; these are mine.  This summer, this state has burned more than anytime since I moved here as a kid in 1974.  We are so dry here that most of the forests are shut off to public access right now.  There have even been fires that have started on the fringes of the Phoenix metro area and expanded outward to 100's of 1000's of acres this summer.   Most of the habitats/areas that I hunt in have gone up in smoke in the past 5 years.  I love my 25-06 and 30-06, but it's why I ponied up the $ for a 7mm WSM.   In some spots there is no longer adequate cover to make a stalk through.  The need for a longer reach is there for me - so I can take my weapon for a walk through charcoal.  

Someone elses reasoning, like VictorCharlie who hunts in a "decent" state that isn't a darn powder keg waiting to be ignited, is just as dead-on right for their situation.  Both sides are right on this, depending on where and what you are hunting.

(On the other hand, can someone explain to me why I am building a 54 cal muzzleloader with a 70 yd reach???) :?

Enough grousing.  Back to work on my thesis.  Maybe I can graduate before another chunk of this state ignites, ya think?

Oh yeah, almost forgot.  FORD!!!

[beemanbeme]

LoneStar, if you're talking about the Elmer Keith that probably shot more big game, more DANGEROUS big game in one year than you've shot in a life time, yup!  Have a nice day, hear.  

[Redhawk1]

"I went with the magnum 'cause I was in grizzly country".  You would have been much safer with a 30-06 or even a .308 loaded with 180 or 200 grain bullets than some boy howdy magnum loaded with light for calibre bullets at warp speed.

I learnt the other day that you can call someone stupid and cheap if they don't use the same bullet you do IF you add a smilie face.  So here's mine-----  

Well to address your 2 comments.

How is a 308 or a 30-06 safer than a 300 Win Mag in Grizzle country?  I was shooting a 165 gr. Barnes X bullet and I am sure it would do a good job if needed on grizzly. I am not asking for your approval or dis- approval for my choices. I have enough personal experience to make a good choice.  But more important is knowing how to avoid a confrontation with Grizzlies when in the bush.  Which is what we did when a big Grizzle came to our camp.

And no where in this thread did anyone refer to someone as "Stupid", and yes cheap is what I used but it was a joke to Lawdog from me. I responded to his post and did not direct that toward anyone. So lets try to keep this a friendly thread. (Notice no simile face)

[Graybeard]

Love these kinda arguments er I mean discussions.  :lol:

I especially like how the magnum proponents ALWAYS end up justifying magnums primarily based on the old "can't get closer" scenario they think is always gonna happen each trip out.

Sure feel sorry for all those folks who use only bow and arrow or muzzle loader. Guess they just don't get to hunt in the states you guys do cuz they would never be able to get close enough to use those short range tools.  :eek:

Oh wait, I think maybe they do hunt in ALL states and quite often take the biggest critters of all species in the process. Hmm, maybe they actually know "how to hunt".    Now ain't that a kick in the pants. Those standard rounds like the old .30-06 and .270 Win. aren't up to the task but sticks and strings and sulpher burners are.

Yup something mighty strange about that.

Why can't you magnum guys just admit you do it cuz you like to feel the recoil push you back? Admit your machochistic and love it. Then us who don't like to get kicked around will just shrug our shoulders and say oh well it takes all kinds.  :-D

[Lawdog]

Love these kinda arguments er I mean discussions.  :lol:

I especially like how the magnum proponents ALWAYS end up justifying magnums primarily based on the old "can't get closer" scenario they think is always gonna happen each trip out.

Sure feel sorry for all those folks who use only bow and arrow or muzzle loader. Guess they just don't get to hunt in the states you guys do cuz they would never be able to get close enough to use those short range tools.  :eek:

Oh wait, I think maybe they do hunt in ALL states and quite often take the biggest critters of all species in the process. Hmm, maybe they actually know "how to hunt".    Now ain't that a kick in the pants. Those standard rounds like the old .30-06 and .270 Win. aren't up to the task but sticks and strings and sulpher burners are.

Yup something mighty strange about that.

Why can't you magnum guys just admit you do it cuz you like to feel the recoil push you back? Admit your machochistic and love it. Then us who don't like to get kicked around will just shrug our shoulders and say oh well it takes all kinds.  :-D

Why can’t you “standard” cartridge guys admit that you are a bunch of wimps and unable to handle “Man Sized” cartridges/calibers?   :-D  :-D  :-D   Lawdog
 :toast:

[victorcharlie]

Yep, I to have owned a "Magnum".  It was a Winchester model 70 XTR in 7mm Magnum.  I traded my pet Remington 788 in a .243 for it while a young GI stationed at Ft. Bliss Tx.  The 788 was a fine shooting piece that I killed many ground hogs and at that time a few deer with.   I thought I'd need the 7mm magnum to shoot across canyons at sheep and mule deer.   I've always regretted the trade.  Looking back, I had the perfect rifle to do that with but being a young buck thought I need something bigger, faster, and more powerful.........
 
Years later, after my return to the promised land, I traded it off for another .243.  Just didn't need the Magnum for local deer hunting where shots are usually much less than 100 yards.  It was a beautiful rifle, fine walnut with lots of grain and a rosewood tip.  
 
Recoil isn't the issue with me as I now have an 1895 Marlin in 45.70 that kicks about as hard as most magnums.  I just don't feel I can take an up hill shot on a deer with something that's going to travel 3 miles down range.  Around these parts, shots are either up hill, or down hill......not much level ground to hunt.........Don't want to feed the sharks....er....I mean Lawyers..........not that the 45.70, .35 Remington, or .50 cal patched round ball won't travel over a hill, as it will.
 
Most of the hunting around here is on paper company leases.  There are 13 of us leasing 800+ acres.  On opening day, there may be as many as 10 people hunting.  Usually after opening day, 2 or 3, but you never know.........
 
Lawdog, out in the wide open spaces in the west, I can see why a fellow might think he's better off with a magnum.  I did.......then I got older and wiser.........

[dukkillr]

It seems if you combine the two arguments they cancel each other out.  On one hand is the "safety" argument about magnums carrying too far.  On the other hand is the "lethality" argument about how you can kill anything with an 06 that you can with a .300mag.  So on one hand the 06 is safer because the bullet doesn't carry as far, and on the other hand the 300 is unnecessary because you can kill everything, at any range, with an 06.  

I'm confused.  I'm also confused why this evokes such emotion from the traditional crowd.  Why can't you just agree that a magnum does have better performance and to some people, that's important.  I don't think anyone is trying to take away your trusty 06 or 270 and force you to shoot a mag.

[Graybeard]

Why can’t you “standard” cartridge guys admit that you are a bunch of wimps and unable to handle “Man Sized” cartridges/calibers?   :-D  :-D  :-D   Lawdog
 :toast:

OK Lawdog, I thought I already had but maybe not. I fess up. My shoulder won't take the magnums and I ain't gonna subject it to them.

As for any argument of safety of a non magnum over a magnum I guess I don't understand that one so won't get into it. They will all travel for several miles if pointed wrongly.

[longwinters]

I was brought up using the 30-30 and later moved "up" to the 06.  Finally thought I needed a little more rifle so got myself the mini magnum 7mm.  Had it a year, hunted out west, got my antelope at 250 yds.  Dropped him deader than dead.  Of course both of my boys also got their antelope at about 250 yds.  One with the 06 and the other with a 7m08.  Hmmm, never figured I needed a magnum (for what I would ever hunt) after that and traded the 7mm in towards a Glock.  Of course I still had my all time favorite the 280 and a nice 308 to boot.  

I like magnums.  I like to see guys shoot them . . . accurately.  But I have no need for em for what I do.  I like to see guys buy guns.  I dont care what they are.  Every gun bought magnum or non-magnum is future trading material as far as I am concerned. :grin:

Long

[TexasNimrod]

I am a wimp.