Author Topic: A MUST READ..How an entire hunting party nearly went to jail (Read 11461 times)

Rogue Ram · « **on:** July 19, 2005, 01:38:23 AM »

I have lots of time right now so thought I'd share this even though I'll get hit with flames n flack. If it helps one of you its worth it.

3 of us hunted Oregon near the Nevada border a few years ago. One partner tasked with scouting over the summer, he didn't do it. The other had a GPS, I had no idea it was a first generation without maps. A week prior to opener we scouted an area for a day-ran into a guide who explained where the border was in relation to our maps. You could see a fence in the distance, not much there, not even signs. No need hunt near it, we'd stay in the hills if we came back. We moved on. Opener, we came back to this area as it was the only place we saw "one" deer earlier. Opening afternoon we sat on a water hole. Guy approached on an ATV, asked if we knew where the border was. I pointed East, South, and off West...when I turned back around the guy was looking due North. ?!? He had no rifle....I thought he was State Police (but why not checking licenses) or was birddogging us. He said "I'm scouting for Nevada mule deer"...I said "that's nice you're in Oregon". His eyes got big and he left. ?!?!

Next day, we came back to this area. Non-hunter buddy and I ran into a buck a midday, I drop him (26"+ spread I might add). Radio the other guys, they show up at the kill with the guy from the previous day and another guy, no rifles.... They look like cops, but aren't acting like it....I've got the deer tagged, and while I'm not looking, one partner hands my rifle to one of the strangers- he puts it out of my reach. I'm the only one not packing a pistol.... as I go to gut the deer, the older stranger pulls a S& W auto and starts screaming "FREEZE"!!! I figure I'm about to witness the Clantons vs. the Earps at close range....my buddies, all cops, to my utter amazement did nothing ( and I am DAMN glad they didn't, this time). The young one stands there with his eyes wide, while the old guy, trigger on the finger, gun shaking, is threatening to shoot my two partners who have rifles slung.... I start asking this guy who the hell he is...what does he want...finally, he says he's a state game warden. I responded thats nice but you've got that gun pointed at 4 cops who are all armed, you'd better produce a badge and ID or its gonna be on. Finally after a lot of coaxing, the old guy takes his jacket off...showing a uniform shirt. Up to this point, no badge, no uniform, not jack squat, just a gun not even a verbal ID until asked.

They finally ID themselves. Ultimately, they produce a GPS showing (by their calculations) we are about 3/4 mile into Nevada. We discuss the fact the fences don't line up accordingly, nothing is posted, and where we thought the border was. We also discuss WHY the night before, I wasn't ticketed nor stopped as according to them I was in Nevada then. "We wanted to see how many poachers were in on this". Then, "we're taking your guns, equipment, and probably your vehicles". :eek:

They cited the other two hunters for no license, hunting closed season, said they would INDICT ME, and took all the guns. They said they had 48 hours to get the trucks--couldn't leave us stranded. At one point, younger guy took me aside and quietly asked if I really didn't know we were in Nevada...I explained to him why I thought we were still in Oregon in detail. They refused to go talk to the guide (a mile away at his camp and had to drive right by him when leaving), and said they'd posted this area a week earlier but that hunters had torn the signs down---uh, NO, I don't think so, we were HERE a week earlier and nothing.

This got ugly. Essentially we went back to camp, made "preparations" in case Charlie came in the night for our trucks. Next day broke camp, advised local law enforcement of what happened, and they assisted us in locking up our stuff so they wouldn't come get it. We went South, got an attorney.........case was going away, fast. It stunk to high heaven, especially when the DA found out that they didn't stop this thing the day prior and we could produce a licensed guide that had essentially mis-spoke. Then, the story changed. I, according to them, pointed out and admitted I knew I was in Nevada on opening day to the undercover guy.....ya, RIGHT. I'm standing there in blaze orange telling a stranger I'm in another state....?!? Also said one of us told them we had been military trained in the use of a GPS....uh, NO, that never happened.

According to the maps, its tough to tell, but I was just over the line opening day...by mere feet. The other two guys, well, on day 2 when it all went down, they NEVER were in Nevada when hunting, their ancient GPS proved it when later compared to a topo map, but the DA after hearing the addtl fabrications wouldn't look at the GPS.

The only way this would go away was to either go in front of a JP (we'd lose), then appeal to a regular county court with attorney's fees adding up.....OR they'd accept a civil fine. I said great, let's do the fine. I offered serious $$$ to the Nevada Mule Deer Foundation....NO, the game wardens want the revenue, FULL FINES. They let the deer get killed, they get the money....

Lessons learned: we can afford nice rifles, scopes, etc., BUY a GPS with a map program. Don't trust details to others----this was the most disturbing thing about all this on a personal level. I had no time to scout, and trusted it to someone else who did not do it. Big mistake. I also learned a lot about attorneys---- I'm convinced we didn't find the right guy as this case could have been won...but at what cost. And as far as the wardens go.......well, my rifle was perfectly clean prior to the trip. Fired 3 rounds into the deer. When we got our guns back, it took me 2 hours to clean it!!! Stock scratched and dinged up. As I told their bosses " I was wrong, my partners were not wrong, I would not have been where I was if I had known better, BUT WHY ARE YOUR GUYS LYING ABOUT THIS?" Especially since ITS ON TAPE...they secretly taped everything and are on record saying they thought the whole thing was "just a big mistake", and that the last gate you go through to get where this happened, well, they'd just been leaving it "open". How nice. They also recorded themselves making disconcerting statements about the Oregon State Police (?!?!) and how they like to "bag them" as well.....and took credit for an OSP who turned himself in when he screwed up years ago in a similar situation (they hooked him and booked him, yes, HE called THEM). Of course our OSP friends have been made aware of these issues.

FINAL CONSIDERATION: Let's say we had a 6th party member, a hunter. Member #6 of the party, unseen, stops 300 yards out from the kill..."holy crap, that old coot is stealing my friends deer..." No badge, no uniform showing, just a guy pointing a gun at 4 cops...BANG. Then look where we'd be. I told this to the DA and his boss, and said they need to deal with these two yahoos. When I laid it out they said nothing.....I think they knew I was right.

This is a set up, a honey hole. They are taking advantage of a little spot that's confusing if you don't have a GPS. That's why they drive 5 hours from Reno to do this....they want your TRUCKS, your GUNS, and your money. If they didn't they'd really POST IT and/or say something to you. If you aren't being careful they will have no problem "doing" you like they "did" us. By the way, there are no "offenses" in Nevada, just misdemeanors and felonies......and the fines, well, that hollow sound you are hearing is my wallet.

Had time on my hands and thought I'd share...be safe, be careful.

RR

crow_feather · « **Reply #1 on:** July 20, 2005, 02:25:31 PM »

Rogue Ram,

Years ago, I was cited for hunting out of season. The season ended the day before. I thought it ended the day after I was hunting. While I thought I should be given a break, I wasn't. I was hunting out of season and it is my fault for not being more careful. It comes down to personal responsibility.

I had three friends that were deacons of the church. They were so excited on the night before season opened that they drove around with a flashlight checking for game. They were stopped and as they had a rifle in the truck, they were cited for jacklighting and hunting out of season. They paid a hefty fine and learned a lesson.

You were hunting in an area where you weren't sure what state you were in. You relied on a person who said he was a guide, and you didn't ask the stranger the day before the opener if he knew where you were at.

Sure, there are sneaky and nervous game wardens, and they aren't always the Dudly Do-Rights of the fish and game set. But they can't do anything unless they believe a violation exists.

And with the money Nevada gets from gambling taxes, the Nevada fish and game does not need your vehicle or fine. The fine is set by other than the fish and game and imposed by a judge.

I was working one night when a game warden reported that he was shot. He was shot accidently in the thigh by a kid that was poaching ducks. He bled out before he could get to his car. I'm sure his family would like to speak for him if they knew what you wrote.

Thus, I say to you - GET OVER IT - you screwed up. The fish and game might not have been the brightest or most honest, but if you had been as careful as you should have been, you wouldn't have been there to get arrested.

C F

NONYA · « **Reply #2 on:** July 20, 2005, 03:27:49 PM »

It is your responsibility to make sure you are abiding the law,if you had you never would of had this problem,when you break their laws they have the right to throw the book at you,im sure they didnt appreciate four cops from another state trying to tell them how to run their operation.

Lawdog · « **Reply #3 on:** July 21, 2005, 12:43:07 PM »

Knowing what the game laws are and where you are hunting is your responsibility. Ignorance of the law(s) is never an excuse, just ask any judge. crow_feather is right about getting over it. It could have cost you much more or ended up a lot worse. Lawdog
:toast:

Elwood · « **Reply #4 on:** July 21, 2005, 01:56:07 PM »

Rogue Ram,
You are not a complete idiot, don't listen to them. Stuff happens. What might have been doesn't matter. Oops you made a mistake. Thank you for telling us about it. It could help save us from something like it happening to us. I hope that ALL you lawmen get to understand the repercussions of lying about what occurred. Somebodys world gets messed up and thier respect for the law and lawmen suffers.
Elwood

NONYA · « **Reply #5 on:** July 21, 2005, 03:36:51 PM »

I would think a group of grown men who consider themselves enforcers of the law would understand they were doing thier job since they WERE breaking the law and in the wrong, stinks when you are on the other side of the law huh?

Dusty Miller · « **Reply #6 on:** July 21, 2005, 09:48:46 PM »

Nonya, it REALLY stinks when you are dealing with dishonest lawmen, whether you are in the right or not! The point here is not the these guys were in violation of the law, that was admitted. The foul, putrid part of it is that the Nevada game officials used their position to play dirty. That's ALWAYS worse than a bunch of guys breaking hunting laws. You just flat can't GET any more putrid than dishonest law enforcement.

NONYA · « **Reply #7 on:** July 22, 2005, 05:52:14 AM »

Thats the way they do things in Nevada,my cousins husband and his brother bolth lost brand new $10,000 dirt bikes when they were caught riding in a protected area,it was set to protect some endagered plants,on top of that they had to pay $1200 fines!Neither of them knew it was a protected area and all the signshad been shot off,didnt matter,nevada law enforcement people love to confiscate and colect fines.you dont want to get in trouble there!If they got away with only a fine they should count themselves lucky as they didnt loose thier rifles or vehicles,they would have lost bolth here in MT.

crow_feather · « **Reply #8 on:** July 22, 2005, 12:45:16 PM »

From now on, I'm taking a skateboard huntin and I'm gonna shoot my deer with a slingshot.

C F

Elwood · « **Reply #9 on:** July 23, 2005, 09:14:59 AM »

NO !!! Rogue Ram,
You did good by teaching us a lesson in what can and does happen. Alot of people read this post and agreed with you but people who agree are not as motivated to reply as a disenter.

Elwood

crow_feather · « **Reply #10 on:** July 23, 2005, 10:05:37 AM »

It is a story worth telling. It just seemed that the story was told not to warn others, but to show how sneaky, and mean fish and game wardens can be. It also seemed that it was everyone elses fault except the writer's. I must have read it wrong.

Lee · « **Reply #11 on:** August 29, 2005, 07:55:21 AM »

If a buisness or corporation acted in this way to further it's interests it would be be considered unethical and laws would be enacted to ban the tactics described. People go to jail for lying.

I am no lawyer but the word "fraud" came to my mind when reading this story.

It seems like there is no code of ethics required in law enforcement when something like this is done.

crow_feather · « **Reply #12 on:** August 30, 2005, 05:38:00 PM »

If a business or corporation based it's decisions on only one side of a story, it wouldn't be a business or corporation long.

C F

muzzleblast525 · « **Reply #13 on:** August 31, 2005, 02:43:10 AM »

Being in law enforcement for over 23 years, with over six years of undercover work, it appears that these wardens don't know the meaning of DISCRETION. Discretion, as defined is freedom to act and think as one wishes, usually within legal limits. By golly, if somebody doesn't realize there in another state, then it should be the responsibility of the warden to point this out to the hunter so that he doesn't make a mistake by hunting in an area where he shouldn't be.

Everybody has a job to do, and its not just to arrest or issue tickets to these people. Most people know right from wrong, and all make mistakes from time to time. If I stop somebody for speeding, its an open road and no speed limit signs and they are going 60-mph in a 40-mph, I make them aware of this. I honestly can't justify writing a ticket for this violation if there is not a speed limit sign posted for several miles. Now, before everybody tries to jump on the band wagon about this, I'm not saying the person is driving 80 or 90, then they should know better, because there is no place that I know of in the US that has speed limits that high.

Okay, I've said my piece, now I've got to get back to work. I do have about 130 open cases on my desk where these people should have known its against the law to break into somebody's home and steal.

:money:

crow_feather · « **Reply #14 on:** August 31, 2005, 10:23:39 AM »

Being in law enforcement for 34 years, 18 as a line supervisor, I found that when a person was convicted of a crime, he usually stated that the cops always did something dirty and underhanded and he was just minding his own business while helping a little old lady accross the street.

Maybe those officers were as Rogue Ram said, maybe they weren't. I would never lay blame on a person putting his life on the line defending the law, without at least hearing his side of the story.

If I was behind 130 cases, I wouldn't be messing around reading Greybeard.

C F

Rogue Ram · « **Reply #15 on:** August 31, 2005, 10:35:33 AM »

For anyone having skepticism keep in mind I didn't have to post ANY of it, and I sure could have left what might seem to some as embarrassing issues out of the story. However, I didn't. That's because I want to convey the gravity and the seriousness of what is going on down in that area.

Do a google search of the newsletter called "The Oregon Observer" and check out what they've written about NDOW. The paper is kinda different but interesting about their take on NDOW.

Crowfeather, I'm simply warning people, and yes, I am not happy about the way I was treated. I've been in the game long enough to have woked on the East and West coast, I've seen coworkers go to jail for fraud, other officers set up rookies and get them fired while on probation because they wouldn't take a flashlight to a loudmouth (cuffed) prisoner ("you ain't one of us if you don't), and in the earlier days worked with guys that came to work pickled. I'm gave up being naive many years ago so its not a far stretch to see game wardens taking advantage of a situation like this.

Again, I've said I was wrong till I'm blue in the face, but I don't think I'm several thousand dollars and a trashed rifle wrong. I'd have taken the ticket when first contacted and been chagrined but happy to have had it rather than to be allowed to shoot a deer illegally then charged for it.

The message is to "be careful, there are those that will take advantage of you if you aren't", and I'm sorry to say, cops are included.

Be safe, be careful. I want a GPS for Christmas.

RR

muzzleblast525 · « **Reply #16 on:** August 31, 2005, 11:56:15 AM »

Well, here we do get a couple of breaks a day, and an hour for lunch. But hey, what can I say......And the post time was before 8:00 a.m., and I took a half a day vacation to check on the grandbabies....And if I read it correctly, everybody involved in this were in law enforcement. Correct me if I'm wrong....

crow_feather · « **Reply #17 on:** August 31, 2005, 02:16:55 PM »

I already did

C F

muzzleblast525 · « **Reply #18 on:** August 31, 2005, 07:28:11 PM »

?

:oh:
:|

Varmint Hunter · « **Reply #19 on:** September 05, 2005, 02:48:02 PM »

I have been a Conservation Officer for 25 years, five of which were in supervisory capacity.

Based on what I've read here, I'm with Muzzleblast on this one. However, after serving as the District Court Liason for many years, I have become acutely aware that there are always 3 sides to every story. Hopefully, a defendant can get a fair and impartial judge, jury or other adjudicator to analyze the facts in any given case.[/b]

crow_feather · « **Reply #20 on:** September 06, 2005, 04:38:50 AM »

Sure are a lot of cops around here.

Lost Okie · « **Reply #21 on:** October 20, 2005, 03:11:33 PM »

Hey Rogue, thanks for the post. Different from many, I am not a cop, although I can call several friends.
Guess I have been lucky and only experienced the good guys. Not hunting but fishing in a state that I had just moved to with a 3 hook worm harness. State law says only 2 hooks but you can tie 2 crank baits to your line, go figure. Anyway, the officer asked me to cut one hook off when I got home. No citation, he knew I was making the effort. However I personally know of a hunter, after dragging his deer out of the woods and to his car, had a warden offer to and then helped him load his deer, then cited him for not having the tag on before loading it. I wasn't there, but I do know that his case was thrown out. You be the judge. There are good and bad everywhere.
Anyway, thanks again, Your story is one that, taken in the right text will help many.

corbanzo · « **Reply #22 on:** March 02, 2006, 02:48:55 PM »

In my experience, and not to bad mouth all, but fish and game to seems to me a lot more of an undesireable people than other police. I was once going to fish at the kenai river on opening night, and we were all waiting for the signal for midnight. These young guys (like me) were out on the river, and starting fishing about five minutes early. So of course F&G comes down, tells them to stop and starts asking for licences, giving tickets, etc. This is can understand. then one comes up to me, and asks for my licence, so I show it to him, he turns, and I ask him what he is doing. He says, I'm going to write you a ticket, I ask him for what?? He says, for smoking pot (the other young guys were) I said no way, I have not been, I dont, and I have been thirty feet down the bank all night. He said, yes, I can smell it on you. I look him in the eye, and told him, no you can't, I'm not with those hoodlums, can I have my license back. After he found out that I wasn't going to give into his crap, he gave me my license back, and I had a good night of fishing. I hate that crap how they have nothing, except for a guess, a lie, an idea, and try and bust you for it. It just pisses me off. I'm not badmouthing all police, and I know they put up with lots of crap, and I respect most of them. The truth is though, that does not give you the right to be a fallice head, or take advantage of powers given to you by the state.

Rogue Ram · « **Reply #23 on:** September 23, 2007, 06:13:43 PM »

BTTT

Its that time of year again gang. Please be careful!

RR

crow_feather · « **Reply #24 on:** September 24, 2007, 08:09:17 AM »

You have got to let this go. It is eating you up and even though to you, a terrible travesty occurred, I could tell you stories of arrests that were complete farces that were correctly adjudicated in court. I believe that you were probably terrified at the thought of being arrested as you have been an honest and forthright person your whole life. You probably call a taxi when you drink a little too much, you turn in any money that you find on the ground, you never sample the grapes at the grocery store, and you would never trespass to get that 12 point buck that died 20 feet into posted property. Instead of spending your time bashing every fish and game officer that walks the woods, go to church and thank God that you weren't arrested.

~Ace~ · « **Reply #25 on:** September 24, 2007, 08:57:30 AM »

Entrapment SUCKS, but has become Very common with todays Cops...

When a LEO Allows someone to comit a crime, with the prior ability to STOP it by educating the person prior to a crime being comitted do to the persons ignorance of location or law, it is AGAINST the Color of the Law, it is Wrong, and the LEO's involved should be charged.

If the LEO's had knowledge that a Crime was about to be commited, and did Nothing to prevent it... they are WRONG ! But in todays world, they let it happen so they can "Pay the Bills" and meet the Quota's that "Don't Exist"

Assuming you were as close to the line as you said, did these LEO's trespass into the State you believed you were in, and carry Guns into it ?

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #26 on:** September 24, 2007, 09:25:12 AM »

yes you should know and obey the law ! that said some leo's don't play by the rules ! I had a good friend have a call of nature ! there is a church where we hunt with out houses ( you know half moon in door ) anyway it was getting late , almost dark , he was in a bad way so he puts truck in park , leaves lights on ! runs in the jonnie house and takes a load off ! he hears a car pull up so he finishes the paper work and steps out to be greeted by a game warden writing him a ticket for spotlighting deer with his head lights ! same game warden gave two young girls tickets for same thing , said they made a turn to slow , the fog was so thick they were looking for the road !
the judge thru. both out of court !

crow_feather · « **Reply #27 on:** September 26, 2007, 03:17:54 AM »

The complaint process is a viable means of eliminating that type of officer. People have to file formal complaints with the office the warden works at. There is a term, negative retention, which means that after so many valid formal complaints, an entity is liable as they have not eliminated the officer's errors of judgment.

99 % of the agencies do not want to be in the news because of bad acts by their personnel. They will handle the problem once it's brought to their attention.

As far as making money through unlawful arrests, one lawsuit will negate 1000 fines. Any agency head knows that.

If you believe that the officer, the agency, the prosecutor, the judge, and the jury, are all against you, you need to sell your guns.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #28 on:** September 26, 2007, 03:55:36 AM »

CROW FEATHER , did you ever see a speed trap ? should we sell our cars and trucks ?

woodchukhntr · « **Reply #29 on:** September 26, 2007, 04:33:29 AM »

We had a case locally where a CO busted a bunch of out-of-staters at a related resident's house adjacent to state land. They had loaded shotguns on 4-wheelers and trucks, untagged deer on vehicles and inside the house. He had the opportunity to sieze all of the guns, vehicles and even the house, but didn't. The Town Judge was very upset with him.

What was the right move? Do what he did, or seize everything? By not seizing what he legally could have, he was letting them off easy, and they were back the next year.