.308 vs. 300 mag

[Todd1700]

And I think it is silly to assume that just because someone can afford a brown bear hunt that they can afford a "specialized" rifle for it. Heck, at $10,000+ I am strapped to put together a good hunt and I sure don't need to tack another $2k on.

Well you don't have to drop $2K to get a rifle in a caliber large enough for a brown bear. Ruger, Remington and Browning all chamber their standard rifles in 338 win mag.  Perhaps I should have said, "can afford another gun in a caliber best suited to the game being hunted." And lets be honest very few people who routinely hunt elk, moose, caribou and especially brown bear are going to be so poor that owning two rifles is out of the question.

All I'm saying is buy a gun/caliber based on what it will be "PRIMARILY" used for and not what it might be used for once 5 years down the road. For example I'm not going to buy and shoot dove with a bolt action 34 inch barrel 10 gauge goose gun for the next 4 years because someday I might go up north after snow geese. To me that's just silly.

[victorcharlie]

Here's what it comes down to... This board is filled with a mixture of:

A) Spineless neutered whimps that cry for mother because there is too much noise and too much recoil; and
B) Macho butt-heads trying to compensate for their small "units" by getting firepower well in excess of what is necessary for the game at hand.

Once again you have over simplified and forgot the third group who has experienced the pounding of the Magnums and realized that from a practical standpoint it just isn't necessary to take the pounding even though most are capable of taking it, at least for awhile.  We have paid the high price for ammo.   We are not whimps, nor are we Macho butt-heads.....we are learned men who already tried it and decided there is a better way.........

Intelligence and experience my friend.......do I have some thumpers......yes I do........but for a young man starting out, there needs to be some pleasure in shooting the gun in order to improve his skill with it.  I'm not talking about taking it to the range to zero and then putting it back in the cabinet.  I'm talking about shooting it enough to become part of the rifle.  

My 45.70 is much the same way........why do I want to shoot Garretts at white tail when I don't need to spend $40 dollars a box to get the same results?  Why do I want to deal with the extra recoil when I don't have to.  Now if I were to hunt Griz....then maybe.....but the question was "is a .300 Winchester Magnum over kill for whitetail deer?"  And I still say under just about all conditions......yes, it has way more power than needed.

[dukkillr]

Todd1700 said:

300 win mag is waaaay overkill for whitetails. Will it do the job? Yep, but then so would a 50 caliber BMG. Why not get one of those in case you decide to hunt Rhino's one day. See how ridiculous this type of argument can get? The 308 with half the recoil and tons of surplus ammo around would be way more pleasent and cheaper to shoot.

Your argument would be fine if the 50 didn't hurt meat at any significantly increased rate, was similar in weight to the 308, and legal.  Of course that's not the case, and that's why your example is flawed.  I feel like you took this to some type of personal level with your derogatory tone.  I bow hunt, I know getting close.  I've got a custom .270 and two 30-06s so I've got rifles with lower recoil.  That doesn't mean what I said is untrue, I would argue that it means I have some basis for my opinion.

I don't understand why all the anger.  I like my .300.  If I had it to do over, and I could only have 1 rifle, I'd pick that .300 mag again.  You can disagree but I don't think I'm stupid.  Both those elk were over 300 yards.  Maybe you think that's unusual but I practice no more than a normal person and killed both with one shot.  

Could I have done that with one of the other rifles?  Probably, but maybe not.  Either way I don't believe encouraging someone to make a decision I'm happy with is wrong and I don't believe I deserved your condescending post.

[Todd1700]

If I had it to do over, and I could only have 1 rifle, I'd pick that .300 mag again.

But this is precisely my point. You don't have to pick just one rifle. Thanks to the freedom we have in this country to own more than one gun you should never have to find yourself shooting prairie dogs with a 416 Rigby or trying to stop a Brown Bear charge with a 243 because you where trying to find one caliber you could do everything with.

Now I realize that there are plenty of people out there who aren't made of money but I stand by my contention that if you can afford the tags and logistical expenses of hunting elk, caribou, moose and bear then you can probably afford two rifles.

As I said before get the gun best suited to what you plan to shoot the "most". The young man asked if a 300 win mag is overkill for whitetails and the answer is yes. The 308 is a tool better suited to that particular task. If he plans to primarily hunt whitetails with an occasional crack at larger (non-dangerous) animals then the 308 is the way to go. If he were going to primarily hunt Elk in wide open country were long shots were possible and only occasionally drop down in scale to shoot a whitetail then I'd recommend the 300 win mag. Both calibers could be used as an all around gun but I advise him to pick based on what he knows it will be used for 95 percent of the time not what it might be used for 5 percent of the time.

I feel like you took this to some type of personal level with your derogatory tone.

Not so. My problem is only with the type of argument that says get the giant magnum for deer hunting because one day you might go after Cape Buffalo and then on that one trip you'll have the proper gun. No offense intented towards you personally and I sincerely apologize if it seemed that way. Voice inflection and tone are hard to get right over the internet sometimes and things can be taken in a harsher light than they were intended.

[Coyote Hunter]

bearblade –

If you have shot a .300 Win Mag and didn’t find its recoil objectionable and still want one, then get one.

[Redhawk1]

Here's what it comes down to... This board is filled with a mixture of:

A) Spineless neutered whimps that cry for mother because there is too much noise and too much recoil; and
B) Macho butt-heads trying to compensate for their small "units" by getting firepower well in excess of what is necessary for the game at hand.

While I certainly understand many of our desires to have numerous firearms, and am guilty of that pleasure myself... I am a strong believer in the one-gun school of thought... at least up to a point. Sure I collect firearms, but when it comes to hunting it is inarguable that I am better off being extremely practiced with my primary rifle. The more you practice with a rifle the more proficient you're going to be. Period.

And I think it is silly to assume that just because someone can afford a brown bear hunt that they can afford a "specialized" rifle for it. Heck, at $10,000+ I am strapped to put together a good hunt and I sure don't need to tack another $2k on top of it because I'm not confident in my less powerful rifle and need to buy a magnum. It takes me years to save up $30k (and now it's moving up to $40k) for a good safari. You don't see me rushing out to put another $15k-$25k on a Rigby. Nope. I'm very happy with my M70 in .300 Wby Magnum and M70 .458 Lott. I also have a couple of pretty rifles in my collection, but the M70s are my killing rifles and I have no hesitation in saying that my practicing with those 2 rifles has both saved my life and saved me from having to chase wounded game.

If a guy choses a .308 as his deer rifle... or 7mm-08, or .270, or whatever... that's great. They'll all do the job. But if you dream of that big hunt, why not know that you have the rifle to do it? And why not know that you are extremely proficient with that rifle because you have practiced your tail off and made that firearm an extension of yourself.

I suggest to you, bearblade, to ask which caliber you're going to feel best about hunting with. If you have any suspicion that the recoil of the Win Mag might lessen your desire to shoot it... or if the higher price of the ammunition might keep you away from the range... get the .308. It is a great cartridge. Otherwise, go for the gusto.

I think you went a little over board in your A) B) comments. But besides that. If someone ask's opinions and we give our opinion, what  makes our's wrong and your's right?

Todd1700, as far a picking one rifle, I have rifles from 22-250 to 416 Rigby. But I also use some rifles for smaller and large game. But some times you can get a caliber the will fit several needs. If I decided to go deer hunting, I could take my 243, 45-70, 44 MAG, or even my 300 Win Mag.  But if someone else does not have the money to afford several guns then a one gun for most of your hunting is indeed a good choice.  

[victorcharlie]

    I agree......this has spurned some debate hasn't it?

Everyone has an opinion.......but you should buy what you want!  That's what makes this country great!   Now, if we were in China......we wouldn't be having a discussion of this nature!

[Jimi]

Todd1700, You're right, of course, about most people being able to purchase more than one gun. I was of the impression that we were being asked about one gun for everything and I initially found your response rather dismissing. In reflection, I think your point is well taken.

victorcharlie, You too make a good point. My A & B comments were meant to be humorous and I was poking fun at myself in the process. I agree... and I think the last paragraph of my post addresses this... if a rifle is punishing to you you're less inclined to practice with it, and if that's the case then it ain't the gun for you.

Redhawk1, again, my A & B comments were supposed to provide some self-defacing humor. A little bit of truth, perhaps, but stereotypes like that serve no purpose. If my comments did anything more than make anyone laugh or to engage in this debate, I regret having made them.

So all this said, and responding to the original post... I personally hunt a broad range of big game, from whitetail deer to lions and cape buffalo, and for me the .300 Magnum lets me cover a lot of ground with a single firearm that I am well practiced with... using the .458 Lott as a DG rifle, of course. But if the focus is primarily on whitetail, I think the .308 is an excellent choice. It is truly a pleasure to shoot and the cartridge is among the most accurate you can get.

[Big Paulie]

Let's randomly select 100 hunters who shoot the .308 Winchester as their primary hunting rifle, and  100 hunters who shoot the .300 Winchester Mag as their primary hunting rifle, and put them in a side by side contest on the rifle range, shooting from kneeling and prone at 100, 200, 300, and 400 yards.  

   Anyone want to take any bets on which group would score the highest, by a very wide margin?

   I have been shooting rifles from the bench and in the field for over 35 years, and have lots and lots and lots of experience seeing guys shoot their .300 Magnums in both instances.  The vast majority of them are really terrible shots.  Why? The .300 Magnums are just too much gun for the average shooter, and even for a very large percentage of experienced shooters.  They encourage flinching, stock creeping and face turning in the large majority of people who shoot them.   These cartridges are overkill for 95% of all practical hunting.  Indeed, the vast majority of hunters I talk to who use them say they selected them "for knockdown power," instead of saying that they selected them so that they would have an adequate big game cartridge that they can easily use to precisely place a large caliber bullet exactly where they aim.

   Now I know for a fact that there are some people out there who are exceptional, and can shoot the .300 Winchester Magnum very accurately and comfortably, at long range, short range, in the field, and from the bench.  You are the extreme exception.  And for this reason, I never recommend a .300 Magnum to someone who is looking for an all around rifle (especially focused on deer), or to someone who is just starting out.

Big Paulie

[Eddie in Delta]

Not to change the subject, but does anyone have a practical solution to getting rid of a flinch?  I put a new recoil pad on my .300 so it doesn't kick quite as hard, but I still do it.  When I put range muffs over my ear plugs, I hardly even notice the recoil for about the first 8 rounds, but I still jerk right before the trigger goes off.  Could this be the 7 pound trigger?  I suspect that plays a part in it, but I don't think that's all.  

My dad said the way they worked on flinches in the Army was putting a penny on the end of your barrel and dry firing; the theory being that if you don't flinch when dry firing, you won't when the live ammo is there, either.  Didn't work for me.  Any other suggestions?

Thanks,
Eddie

[victorcharlie]

Eddie.......This calls for a couple of 500 packs of .22lr or a good air rifle and a few tin cans..........shoot something fun and shoot it frequently.......The problem you have will go away after awhile.......but I wouldn't plan on putting a lot of rounds at a time through your .300 Magnum...shoot a five round group and put it up.....wait for another day to run 5 more rounds through it..........That's really the problem with any high recoil gun........most people can't run a couple of boxes of shells through them without developing a flinch.......number one rule is always quit while your having fun........

Another thing about shooting hard kickers........the rifle has to fit into the sweet spot on your shoulder to shoot comfortably.......once you find it, and recognize it for what it is, no more brusies or red spots........shotgunning clay birds seems to help most people find it without developing a flinch.  You hear about how the gun fits.......this really means it sits in the pocket of your shoulder correctly and just goes there naturally (as well a some other things).......Most right handed shooters place the rifle butt to low and to far to the right........try mounting the gun higher and farther in toward your collar bone.

[Redhawk1]

This has been a very informative thread and a lot of fun participating in.  

[Jimi]

victorcharlie's advice mirrors what I would say, except that I limit my shooting to 5 round groups in order to let the firearm cool down. After 5 rounds the danged thing is pretty hot and the rifle will lose accuracy.

Also, the comment about fit is right on. The set up that works great for my .300 Wby includes a muzzle brake and a quality recoil pad. There are several good pads available now, and if you don't like hunting with a brake you can apply one that can be removed. I swear to God that I have had many people fire my rifle that were fully expecting to feel some pain and every single one of them was dumb struck that the set up didn't kick worse than their .30/'06.

Again, the .22 advice is spot on.

[Norseman112]

I have a quality recoil pad on my custom made 300 . I had a couple of friends shoot it and they thought it was not so bad either. I didn't mean to be little anyone before in my post when I said the kick wasn't so bad, I was trying to be honest and helpful.  I do practice with it often as I do go elk hunting. I think the 300 is a good combination gun for deer and elk Many hunters who buy a rifle specifically for elk choose a 7mm, .300, .338 or .350 Magnum. For a combination rifle for deer and elk, I think I would draw the line at the .300 Magnum.  If you are only going to hunt mainly deer than the 308 would be a great choice. As I said before I mostly use my 25-06 for deer and once in a while I will grab my 300.  even though some may say its over kill. I guess I like the 300 to much. I am not going to get into who is right and who is wrong  :-)  This has been very interesting  

Norse

[bearblade]

I eventually plan on getting more rifles (after I upgrade the guns I have), but I'm about to hit a slightly tight spot where money is concerned (getting out of the military, looking for a job, and starting college).  These things are going to make starting my collection difficult.  I have a few more guns I plan on buying in the near future, but most of them won't be suitable for deer hunting (I plan to get a Vaquero, a 1911, and a 22 rifle at least).  I also ned to invest money in some trapping supplies (have a pesty coyote problem).  Because of all this I am only looking at one rifle for the next year or so.

[victorcharlie]

Tell you what bearblade..........If I could be 22 again I'd give you all my guns.  

Yep....money was a little tight when I was 22.  Don't worry, but learn to speak spanish and asian indian.....or Chinese.......

[bearblade]

I know a word or two in Spanish, plus I can survive (very difficultly) in Urdu and Hindi (Pakistan and India respectively).  I am also very skilled in broken English and hand signs (I did a lot of security for local workers and third country workers in Kuwait and Iraq).  It would be a tough choice for me, but I think I want the experience of 22 (although every year that goes by is usually better than the last).

[Coyote Hunter]

Let's randomly select 100 hunters who shoot the .308 Winchester as their primary hunting rifle, and  100 hunters who shoot the .300 Winchester Mag as their primary hunting rifle, and put them in a side by side contest on the rifle range, shooting from kneeling and prone at 100, 200, 300, and 400 yards.  

  ...

Big Paulie –

I hear this argument over and over but contend it is irrelevant how the other 199 shooters do – all that matters is how the shooter in question does.  And since this is a question about hunting, hopefully we are only talking about a shot or two.  High scores in competition are nice, but only significant differences in first-shot accuracy are meaningful to the hunter.

Here in Colorado the .300 Win Mag makes an excellent choice for an all-around hunting rifle and many people choose it for that reason.  While my Ruger .257 Roberts is pleasant to shoot and very accurate, there is no significant difference in the accuracy I achieve with my Rugers in 7mm Mag or .300 Win Mag.  The same is true with my Marlins in .30-30, .375Win and .45-70, even though recoil varies dramatically depending on the specific loads.  

There is no question that lower recoil makes for more pleasant shooting, particularly for prolonged sessions at the bench.  Nor is there any question that .308 ammo is cheaper than .300 Win Mag ammo.  Neither of these factors, however, are a primary concern when I select a hunting rifle.  If I want low recoil and cheap  I’ll pick up my Browning .22LR.

[gunnut69]

I've been watching this and find it amuzing.  All seem to be ignoring the fact that the question is 'what should I buy' (as a first rifle).  There is little choice..  The recoil of any caliber is dependant on many things and the effect on the shooter very singular.  I love the 300 and rularly use it for whitetail..  They tend to go down just fine and I've never destroyed an excess amount of meat.. Of course I don't shoot light or fragile bullets..  I've also killed deer with a 243 and find it also a wonderful caliber, albeit of a different flavor.  The only real advantage of the 300 is versatillity..  My 300 can easily become a 308 with the right handload, or even a 30-30.  With cast bullets it can shoot the head off a grouse and has.  If we took the argument that it's too much rifle for whitetail as gospel then the 308 is overkill also.  The 30-30 is perfectly adequate and has killed millions of whitetail and black bear.  In Canada many moose fall to the 30-30 each year..  Recoil is cumulative.. this I learned while helping an old friend and longtime gunsmith sight in the years crop of 30-30's.  He used a cheater back, a bag of lead shot, between shoulder and butt.  I didn't think that was 'needed' and said so.  He said, fine and went back to shooting.  15-20 rifle and many boxes of ammo later I was a little sore..  I would say this. if you want to you can learn to shoot any caliber.  If you're afraid of recoil or don't want to deal with it's effects, use the 30-30.  It's quite effective and has minimal recoil.  If you want more power the 308 30-06 class will give that.  In most rifles they are useable, avoid the super lightweights as they increase the recoil effect.  If you most interesdted in terminal effect and willing to learn to deal with the recoil buy the 300..  Avoid light soft bullets in any caliber and put the bullet where it belongs..  All will work just fine..   jJsut one other thing, when handloading the cost of shooting is greatly equalized.. a 300 just isn't that much more expensive than a 308, especially if one practices with reduced loads..  The rifle and the rifleman is more important than the caliber..

[Eddie in Delta]

Thanks for the advice!  Sorry to sort of steal your thread, bearblade.  Anyway, does the stock length matter as much on a rifle as a shotgun?  I think my stock is a bit too short, as I'm a pretty tall guy.  I'll try moving the butt closer to my collarbone.  And hey, maybe I'll put a scope on my .22 and go after some magpies.

Does anyone know if Limbsaver makes pads for Savage 111's?  Is it the same thing as their pad for the 110's?

Thanks,
Eddie

[Lawdog]

Eddie,

How about a little more information on your .300 Win. Mag.  Make/model?  Dimension/make  of the recoil pad you put on it?  I may be able to come up with a few ideas on taming that “recoil tiger” for you thus helping you cure your flinch.  Lawdog
 

[Lawdog]

Thanks for the advice!  Sorry to sort of steal your thread, bearblade.  Anyway, does the stock length matter as much on a rifle as a shotgun?  I think my stock is a bit too short, as I'm a pretty tall guy.  I'll try moving the butt closer to my collarbone.  And hey, maybe I'll put a scope on my .22 and go after some magpies.

Does anyone know if Limbsaver makes pads for Savage 111's?  Is it the same thing as their pad for the 110's?

Thanks,
Eddie

Got any idea what your "pull length" is?  a too  short stock will increse the "felt recoil".  I have that problem with factory rifles as my pull length is 15 inches.  Lawdog
 

[hogdgonhead]

I have the 300 wsm and am very fond of it!
On the bench after a few rounds give myself and the gun a break,
in the woods recoil is the last thing I think about and plus during the cold part of the season my heavy coat helps on the kick.
I looked at the 308 and the 30-06 and the 300 winmag but chose the
shorty.Groups a 3leaf clover at 100 yards and that tickles me silly!
Can be loaded light or heavy depending on your taste but for me
I like the 150 grain ballistic tips and the 180  grain power points
there factory slugs I know but I aint reloading yet either.

Man that is great to know. I just ordered a Weatherby Vanguard SubMOA in .300WSM. I have shot many a magnum caliber, but this will be the first of the new "short" generation  I have ever owned. I am looking for this caliber to reach out a touch hogs from 350 yards or so. I imagine the recoil to be a bit sharper than .30-06 since I got the accua brake option. Certainly cannot be as bad as 338 Mag or dare I say .416 rigby (prob would never shoot that caliber again. Its worse than 3.5 inch shottie).

[Omaha-BeenGlockin]

First gun???   Get the .308 and don't look back---cheaper to shoot---meaning being able to practice more.

Easier on the shooter---also more conducive to honing a better shooter.

Not mention .308 ammo is EVERYWHERE.

The .308 will drop anything in the lower 48 you care to shoot at.

Also--the gun will be lighter and handier due to the short action.


When its time to get a bigger gun----skip the .300 completely and get a .338 Win----a more versatile round and (surprisingly) the recoil isn't as vicious as the .300---in my experience. More like a shotgun push than a sharp rip.

[Jimi]

I have a sidebar question on the .300WSM. These seem like trendy cartridges to me, designed with the sole intent of selling more rifles rather than providing a truly superior cartridge. Heck, I guess you could say that about all the .300 Magnums since the .300 H&H, which is still arguably the most efficient of all of them. That said, the only real justification I can see for the .300 Magnum is that you can fire larger bullets. Loading 200 and 220 grain bullets into an H&H or Weatherby Magnum is a no-brainer, and it can be done (though less effectively) with the Winchester Magnum. So my question is, and I'm not trolling for an argument... I truly do not know the answer and am curious... Will the short magnum cartridges comfortably handle a 220 grain bullet?

[Buckeye]

How fast do you need to push a 180gr. 30 cal. bullet to kill Bambi

Well the 308 will push it plenty fast enuff, (have you guys ever heard of a 30/30) ?

Choose the 308 if you think you need more get a 30-06. The 300 mag. is Heavier, longer, wastes powder ,kicks harder, all for just a tad more Vel. which is not need unless your shootin over 400 Yd.s
My opinon is the 300 mag. has nuthin on the 30/06...nuthin !

[jmckinley]

Thought I'd chip my 2 pennies in. I just bought a Mark X Mauser in 6mm for goats and mulies. My next investment is going to be A Weatherby Vanguard in 300WSM. The 300WSM is not a trend in my humble opinion but does anything a 300 Win does will a noticeable difference in recoil. I have shot both side by side and can tell the difference. The 300's are at the upper end of my recoil tolerance because of several old injuries. I have an 06, 223,6mm and soon a 25-06 just because I getting old and need my toys!! What will be my primary hunting tools the 6mm, 25-06 and for Elk, Bear and Oryx the 300WSM. Yet my favorite gun is a 308 Ruger target. Frankly it does make a Rats rump which you pick get what you like and never look back. If recoil is a problem go smaller. I figured how heavy recoil feels when I shot a 470 Nitro Double at a range in Germany. Let me put this way it's like getting drilled in your private parts with a very, very, very, very large hammer.   Jess :grin:

[Eddie in Delta]

Lawdog,

Sorry to take so long in replying, but I've been on vacation with my family.  My .300 WM is a Savage 111, standard stock.  I have a slip-on Pacmyar recoil pad that I use in warm weather when I don't have a coat on.  With that pad, the rifle butt comes to my elbow when I hold the grip like a pistol; that's how the guy at the local sporting goods store told me it was supposed to fit.

Anyway, when I have both earmuffs and earplugs on, the kick doesn't seem nearly as bad as when I shoot with earplugs alone, I recently found.  Also, I've realized that I tend to slap the trigger instead of squeazing.

So should I get a different recoil pad?  Thanks for the tips.

Eddie

[Lawdog]

Lawdog,

Sorry to take so long in replying, but I've been on vacation with my family.  My .300 WM is a Savage 111, standard stock.  I have a slip-on Pacmyar recoil pad that I use in warm weather when I don't have a coat on.  With that pad, the rifle butt comes to my elbow when I hold the grip like a pistol; that's how the guy at the local sporting goods store told me it was supposed to fit.

Anyway, when I have both earmuffs and earplugs on, the kick doesn't seem nearly as bad as when I shoot with earplugs alone, I recently found.  Also, I've realized that I tend to slap the trigger instead of squeazing.

So should I get a different recoil pad?  Thanks for the tips.

Eddie

I would install a Kick-Ezz or Decelerator recoil pad and if it still kicked to much than install a C&H Research mercury recoil insert.  That will tame your "Recoil Tiger".  Lawdog
 

[dharvey]

Boy... People are sure opinionated :-D  Guess I might as well throw mine in. At one point in my life I had the bigger and faster must be better mentality, so I was loading 150 grain .30-06 cartridges to 3000fps levels and hammering them through my Remington 7400 Autoloader. I finally realized this was crazy and if I wanted to fling 150 grain .30 caliber bullets that fast, then I needed to just upgrade to a gun that would do it without having to load my shells to the extreme. So I sold my 7400 (regrets) and bought a very nice Model 70 classic in .300 Winchester Mag. that had been worked over with the stock leaded and bedded. It was one of the sweetest shooting rifles I ever owned. As far as recoil, in my case it wasn't significant enough to bother me, but then I am 6'3" , 200+ pounds and have been shooting since I was 10 years old.  Sold it a long time ago (more regrets). If recoil is a concern, then buy a rifle with a ported barrel or get an A-bolt with the Boss system. That should bring the recoil down to a managable level. But, as almost everyone will agree, it is way more gun than is necessary for deer, but not so much that I would be hesitant to use one again. :-) One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the difference in rifle configuration. The .308 is a short action with a 22" barrel where the .300 mag will be a long action with a 24" barrel. This only matters if weight is of concern for you though. Just make sure you choose which rifle you buy for the right reason and you'll be happy with your choice.

Darren