Author Topic: How low can you go for deer and hog hunting? (Read 3156 times)

Questor · « **on:** February 20, 2003, 05:41:50 AM »

Now that we've got pistol calibers that are more powerful than some of the old elephant guns, I opine that we don't need nearly that much power for stuff most of us are really likely to hunt.

Is the 44 magnum the practical minimum, or practical optimum, for handgun hunting? Revisiting it in light of today's hand cannons makes it look pretty good. It's light, it's compact, it's got plenty of power, it's proven adequate in the field on game at least as big as cow elk and big hogs. What else do you need?

Or is the 41 magnum the practical optimum of adequacy in the field and handgun-like compactness?

Dave2of5 · « **Reply #1 on:** February 20, 2003, 06:19:37 AM »

Questor;

I think you are right on the money with this question. I would agree with you that the 41 mag may well be the pratical optimum for almost all deer type hunting in cover. Personally, I like the 44 Mag and am seriously thinking about Gary Reeders 41 GNR.

That being said I am going to throw a little curve. I am from the state of Kansas. We have no specific handgun season, any hunting that you do with a hundgun is done during the rifle season. (In Kansas, rifle season is very bad because if you hold a tag of anykind you can go to the field and hunt with it during those 13 days, plus every game species season is at full throttle except coyote and turkey. This is very bad because hunter traffic gets exceptionally high). Add to that the fact that the western 2/3 of the state is tree barren. To hunt with a handgun in this enviroment, you have to adapt bowhunting type skills to their ultimate level. The things you have to deal with here is almost always no rut, bad moon phases and deer at the peak of wearniess. You have to be very sure of previous scouting and ready for your shot(sometimes it takes 5 days or more for the shot -sometimes the shot never materializes). Many times the shot will be over the 100 yd mark, that takes a specialty pistol, a good flat shooting cartridge and A LOT OF PRATICE!! Anyone can take a big buck with a bow and arrow during the rut - that's a no brainer!! Take a big deer with a handgun or a blockpowder handgun, You have my attention and respect. I know that you know how to hunt deer when you can do this!!!

I will admit to you that I get greater satisfaction taking deer with my 44 Mag 4" than any other gun. It's up close personal and alot of fun.

NOTHING BEATS HANDGUN HUNTING!!

Dave Brown

bigbore442001 · « **Reply #2 on:** February 20, 2003, 06:22:57 AM »

I remember Col. Jeff Cooper writing about handgun hunting in an article written before the single shots became popular in the field. He was writing primarily about the use of revolvers and some autoloaders like the Auto Mag.

For deer sized game he stated a rule he refered to as 40-200-1000. Nothing less than 40 caliber with a 200 grain bullet and no less than 1000 fps at the muzzle. That is what he recommended decades ago and I think that it would be a good litimus test for deer hunting.

So, to me that would place a warmly loaded 10mm as a minimum. I know that many 357 lovers will berate this post but this is just my opinion. I would make one exception. When Col.Cooper wrote this, the .357 Maximum wasn't available. I would consider this round to be adequate for deer and hogs with 180 grain bullet loaded near or at maximum.

I know less powerful round will work but here in New England if you don't put your game down relatively fast, someone else may tag it.

Questor · « **Reply #3 on:** February 20, 2003, 06:32:26 AM »

About the previous post regarding Jeff Cooper's opinions... Whenever I read his stuff I close my mind and regard what he says as opinionated for the sake of being opinionated. His recent feature article on the 1911 were the words of someone who lives in the past. For a while he turned his column into a running ad for the Steyr Scout rifle, which seemed like an expensive solution looking for a problem to solve. Who is this guy and why does he have any credibility? I certainly don't take him seriously.

Graybeard · « **Reply #4 on:** February 20, 2003, 06:43:47 AM »

I have no use for Cooper or anything he has to say. I quit reading him well over 20 years ago. When I see his name I just turn the page or move on. I even quit taking the magazines that have him in them.

I think the .44 magnum can be considered an excellent optimum round for most under 100 yard hunting of game up thru deer, hogs and black bear in size. I've never taken a deer with .357 Magnum as I've always had more appropriate rounds and used them. Lately I've been keeping one with me just on the change I might get a shot at one inside 25-30 yards just to see how it will perform. With no experience in using it I have no personal opinion on how it will perform. It has always served me well on other animals I've shot with it but none were as large or heavy as deer.

Not much difference in the real world between the .41 and .44 magnums other than popularity. Bullet selection especially of heavy for caliber bullets is far better for the .44 but other than that I'd rate them a toss up.

GB

southern utah · « **Reply #5 on:** February 20, 2003, 08:04:55 AM »

Don't knock the man, his gunsite program help start a whole new era of gun defence. I have practiced with a few of his instructors and I definitely want them on my side. His is not the only game in town and no his is not the only way just his. The 45acp has it's place ( personal defence) as well as the scout rifle. I personaly use an Encore rifle and my trail sidearm is either a 41 mag Lew Horton 3" or a 629 4" 44 mag mountain gun. I would fell adequate packing my ruger 357 with 170grs loaded hot.

Gregory · « **Reply #6 on:** February 20, 2003, 03:15:38 PM »

Took one small doe with a 357 Contender. Used a 170 SWC cast bullet. It worked fine. Have taken two bucks with a 44 Mag Contender, with JHP bullets. I don't think you need anything more than a 44 Mag for deer out to 100 yds.
I haven't figured out why hunters feel the need for 480 and 454's for deer size game.
Quite honestly, the 44 Mag is about the limit of my recoil tolerance level for what I can shoot accurately for an extended shooting session. And I do like to put in the range time before hunting season.

MS Hitman · « **Reply #7 on:** February 20, 2003, 04:29:30 PM »

As far as light and packable go, you'd be hard pressed to beat my 6" FA in .475 Linebaugh. As far as reduced recoil and muzzle blast go, you'd be hard pressed to beat my 6" FA in .475 Linebaugh when it is loaded with 400 grain cast bullets traveling 850 fps. I can break a deer, hog, or bear down quickly with this load and eat right up to hole with it. And as far as practice goes, you can shoot it all day with these loads.

The .44 mag is a good round for deer hunting, or maost anything else with the proper bullet. However, no point in knocking what the rest of us choose to use.

crawfish · « **Reply #8 on:** February 21, 2003, 08:01:25 PM »

Count me as another who thinks Cooper is a pompus ass, of all the gun guys in the world I'd most not like to be around he is one of only two. The other is some guy who is call "The General" and had a bird hunting show on TOC awhile back.
Also count me as thinking that the .41 is THE do all pistol caliber with the .41RemMag being in the top spot. BTY I have a Reeder .41GNR (SBH)and a .41GNR#2 ( 14 inch Contender) both are fun guns that I shoot a bunch (wife says too much) can there be to much?)

pdrhtr · « **Reply #9 on:** February 22, 2003, 07:37:44 AM »

hey guys
i am new to the site but love to see that i am not the only one with the kind of enthusiam that you guys have.
i hunt pigs with a 44 mag almost every weekend.
seen a spot where some of you are using traps in california we cant use traps but i would sure like to here more about them if pos. see a few different styles if i could talk someone into scaning a picture of their trap i would love to see them.
thank you
pdrhtr

Graycg · « **Reply #10 on:** February 23, 2003, 02:48:02 PM »

Maybe you don't like Colonel Cooper's opinion, Lord knows there aren't any opinionated folks on this post, but you shouldn't discount the man or his legacy. He is opinionated about the 45 because he was prying shrapnel out of his frost bitten butt on some hill in Korea and killing Chinese at close range with that said 45, when it came time for the real deal, he knew what worked. Those of you with that type of experience, please feel free to sound opinionated about what works.

regards,
Graycg

S.B. · « **Reply #11 on:** March 23, 2003, 04:38:15 PM »

I think the formula that you gave 40/200/1000, was intended for self defense, not for taking game animals. Cooper gave us honest practical shooting guide lines before the invention of IPSC, who by the way, in my opinion, has changed it into a hole into which to throw money. Nothing much practical about carrying a concealment pistol with the magazine hanging out of the butt of the gun or having a weight on the end of the barrel to keep the recoil down. If your refering to Mr. Coopers pimping of the .45 ACP over more current handgun calibers, the Army is in the process of picking up the .45 again. Cooper and several others who wrote about self defense handgunning must of known more about what they were talking about than the current rag writers, who pimp the 9mm.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #12 on:** March 24, 2003, 12:40:59 AM »

what i use for a minimun is a 240 cast bullet at 1000fps. weather it be a .41 44 or 45. They kill better then the ballistics will show. My experience with handguns on deer goes from a .357 with 125soft nose to a .500 line with 480 lfns. and I havent seen a difference in killing power between the .500 and the .41 you just have to put the bullet in the right spot and usually they dont go anymore then 100 yards.

bayrunner · « **Reply #13 on:** April 19, 2003, 09:16:57 AM »

Hey Crawfish_____ Please exlpain the 41 GNR & (41GNR #2 ) , I have a 41 and am intriged,and in what way is it better than stock ( if any)THANKS BAYRUNNER

jamie · « **Reply #14 on:** April 19, 2003, 10:23:43 AM »

Bayrunner,check out www.reedercustomguns.com he makes them.

bayrunner · « **Reply #15 on:** April 19, 2003, 05:39:55 PM »

thanks Jamie ____ checked out that web site, interesting, lots of pretty guns . THANKS BAYRUNNER

Old Griz · « **Reply #16 on:** April 25, 2003, 10:17:20 AM »

I don't read Cooper's stuff anymore, but I do appreciate what he has done for all of us, both in and out of harm's way. I'm taking care of my aging father-in-law and it hurts to see him going down hill. Cooper's writing is lacking what it used to have, and I'm sure it's the same with his mind, too. So just let it flow along--ignore it and let it pass, or enjoy it if you can. We'll all be there, too, someday.

Jayhawk Dan · « **Reply #17 on:** August 16, 2003, 05:29:50 PM »

I've been reading these posts and have learned a lot, especially the varying opinions about Col. Jeff Cooper. My interest has to do with the experiences out there in using either 200 grain or 255 grain cast bullets at 800-900 fps in the .45 Colt ("Looong" Colt, that is) for hunting whitetail deer at ranges less than 50 yards. I'll be using the open sights on a Ruger Vaquero. My questions are: 1. Which bullet weight does your experience indicate is the best, and 2. What is your experience with using Unique as the powder? Thanks to all for reading this and sharing your ideas with me. :oops:

Graybeard · « **Reply #18 on:** August 16, 2003, 05:43:40 PM »

Dan, you need to start a new thread with your questions to get proper visibilty of it. Just tacking it on at the tail end of an old thread isn't likely to get you many responses. Start a new thread and I'll respond to it.

GB

traveler59us · « **Reply #19 on:** August 20, 2003, 07:20:59 PM »

Back when I was still an 17 year old kid I lived with a girlfriend and didn't have a very good job. I poached many a deer with the .357 mag S&W mod 13 4" I used 158 gr semi jacketed soft points, the deer when shot at 50 yards or less would go less than 60 yards before pileing up. That's been more than 25 years ago and I DO NOT condone that kind of thing now or have done it for more than 23 years but I thought that I would share with you that while the .357 is not the ideal pistol to hunt deer with that it will take them cleanly within 50 yards or less.