Winchester 94 AE or Marlin in .444 ?

[joe s]

Hello,

I am trying to find out some info/comments on which .444 I should buy....

My 2 choices are the Winchester 94 ae 444 (NIB $340 - synthetic stock) or the Marlin 444 (NIB $462 - wood stock).

I am currently in the US Navy - a Chief Petty Officer stationed in Norfolk Va.

I plan to use this gun Hog Hunting in South Carolina and next year for Black Bear in Maine.

Can anyone give pros/cons on the 2 guns?

Also... Thinking about putting a Simmons AETEC 2.8-10x44 with the illuminated reticle? I have 4 Simmons scopes and love the 44 MAG 3-10x44.... I have never owned an illuminated scope - are they any good?

Any and all comments/opinions welcome!!!!

Thanks,

Joe

[victorcharlie]

The biggest advantage is the ease of disassembly for cleaning of the Marlin.  With the lever half open, remove the lever screw, remove the lever, pull the bolt out the rear of the rifle, and you can clean the Marlin from the breech.
 
Complete disassembly of the Marlin is also much simpler than a Winchester.   I love the simplicity of the design.......functionality, and relialibility, in a simple design.  I don't know how it gets any better........
 
Other than that, I'd think it would be a matter of personal preference.   Which one feels good in your hands and appeals to your eye.......

[joe s]

Victorcharlie -  Thanks for the reply.  So the Marlin sounds much easier to take a part and clean.... that is a plus.  You know us dumb old chiefs - less moving parts the better!!!!  Have you shot either of these guns?  I have heard the the Win has better groves and is more accurate for the large bullets?  Also there is the size... the Marlin is a little longer and the wood stock makes it heavier.... But holding it - it seems to be a sturdier gun..... The price is no big deal (You know us Chiefs are made of Money!!)

I guess I am still on the fence.....

Thanks
Joe
ITC(SW), USN

[victorcharlie]

I currently have a Marlin 1895 in 45.70 and a 336 in .35 Remington.  I have owned several Winchester 94's, but not the AE, as well as several Marlin 336's.  
   
You might want to have a look at http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/schematics/SchemMFG.aspx  
   
This is the illustrated parts breakdown and you can have a look at both models.  
   
Both The Marlin and the Winchester shoot very well.  I read that the Marlin Microgroove Barrels have problems with cast bullets, which can be fixed, but I think the .444 will have ballard rifling.  My 1895 has ballard and I haven't shot cast out of the .35 with microgroove.  
   
Can't help you with the scope.....I've got a VX-III Leupold 1.75 X 6 on the 45.70, and a williams peep on the .35.  
   
I would also think that a little extra weight on a .444 would be a good thing, especially with heavy loads.  If you want to shoot heavy bullets, a 45.70 or .450 might be a better choice.  Much debate on this topic here in the forums.  Seems the .444 might not have the selection of bullets in the heavy weights that the .45.70 has.    
 
Really, it's a matter of personal preference.......the only advantage of one over the other would be ease of maintenance.  The other thing you could do would be to handle both guns and go with the one that fits you best.  Both have years of tradition behind them and you wouldn't go wrong with either.  My preference is for the Marlin.  US repeating arms Co. which owns Winchester is rumored to be a French company but the rifle is manufactured here in the US.  Marlin is a privately held US owned and operated company........this matters to me as well from a political and world economy point of view......I take a lot of criticism on the forums about my view of the world........and the new world order thing.......I served as well.....spent lots of time over seas.......I wouldn't want you fellows under any but US command.......thanks for serving.......

[clodbuster]

joe S  I have an old Marlin 444 with microgroove and its shoots a 275 gr hard cast with gas check just fine.  Theres little on this continent that couldn't be taken with that combo.  I just love the gun as it fits me so well and the extra weight helps with accurate shooting and recoil damping.  Mine has a receiver sight and will drill small objects out to 100 yds with no problem.  Just stay away from catridges loaded with pistol bullets as they can splatter at the high velocity of the 444.  My hard casts come out at about 2300 fps.

[joe s]

VictorCharlie -

Hey thanks for the Heads-up on the US Repeating Arms company being rumored to be french - will have to do some research on that!!! Might make my choice a whole lot easier!!!!!!
My buddy a retired BTC has an old Marlin .35 Rem - I have shot it and it was a great/fun little gun.  One of the reasons I was looking at a lever action.... but I wanted something with a little more power (reason for the 444).  Thought some about the 45-70 & 450... but for some reason like the "triple 4"!!!  I plan on shooting the Hornady Light Mag 265 FP  (Muzzle Vel -2325 fps, Energy -3180 ft-lbs, 100 yd zero only 8" low at 200 yd).  
These ballistic look really good to me for factory loads especially since I will not be shooting over 100/125 yds - but always nice to know if I wanted to stretch it out to 200.
A lot of people have been saying the lower powered scopes.  I am now looking at the Leupold VX1 2-7x33 or the Bushnell Banner 1.5-4.5x32.  Only worry I have is the small diameter of the 32 or 33.  Would love to have something in the 40mm diameter?!?!?  I had an old 32mm 2-7 on my first smoke pole... had problems in the early morning and late evening "sucking" up whatever light was available.  Always heard the bigger the diameter the more light?!?!?
BTW - thanks for your support - and I also agree the our service members (all brother and sisters) should not be under anything but US command - and Thank You for serving before me!!!

Clodbuster:
This is probably going to seem like a dumb question...... how do I know if the round is loaded with pistol bullets?!?  Do you know anything about the above Hornady 265FP round?

Joe

[Mikey]

joe s:  Hey Chief - I've got 3 Winchester Big Bore AEs in 444 and have had a Marlin 444 as well.  

Yes, the Marlin is easier to clean but goodness, how many thousand rounds are ya gonna put through it all at once that you need to take it down after every range or hunting session.  True, the Winchesters really need a gunsmith for proper disasembly/cleaning and re-assembly but the last time I took my oldest AE in for that, the gunsmith said afterward that I didn't need to.  It was still clean (and this was after about a dozen sessions nearing almost 1k rounds - my poor shoulder).......

If you are looking for a Synthetic Stock Model it used to be called the Black Shadow.  I got once and from the start it was a problem and was returned to the factory twice for repair before I even got it to the range.  I hated the stock - I got the rifle because it was another Big Bore in 444.  Well, here's what I did with that rifle - I called Winchester/Browning and ordered a wood rear stock for a Timber Carbine (has the same pistol grip as the Synthetic Stock Model) and a matching (hopefully) forestock for a Traditional Rifle, the magazine tube for a Traditional Rifle (comes to the end of the barrel not just 3/4 length) with hangers, etc. and had my gunsmith mount the tube, etc.  Now, this is one classy lookin' Winchester.

The other thing I did was to get a Beartooth Bullets firelapping kit as bot the Winchester and the marlin carry the 12 groove micro-groove barrel - the firelapping kit allows me to plunk 300 - 330 gn hardcast Beartooth slugs into a group that hovers around 1" or less at 100 yds.  Get yourself onto the Beartooth Bullets website for some incredible information on making those 444s shoot accurately with heavy cast slugs.  It is well worth the read.  

Back in the mid-70s some Army buddies and I went hog huntin' in South Carolina at one of the game management areas.  I was using a 444 with the Hornaday 265 gn slugs and dropped two hogs at near 400 lb each with one shot each behind the head at 50-60 yds as they crossed an open area.  Late last year I used a 330 gn hardcast on a 400 lb Russian Boar that hit him right behind the ear at about 80m and flipped him right over - best tastin' sausage I've ever eaten.  

I'm sorry that I can't give you an opinion on the use of lit=ghted reticle scopes - my 444s carry a Bushnell Banner Dawn to Dusk 1.5-4.5x and they are clear as a bell and take the recoil of the 444 without problem.  HTH.  Good luck and let us know whatcha get.  Mikey.

[joe s]

Mikey - more great info!!!!

Will checkout about the firelapping.  So you have had no issues with the Banner Dawn to Dusk........... work well in early am and late pm?

Been to SC Hoggin' a few times.... used both 12ga Slugs and 30.06.  Biggest was 325lbs with 3.25 tusks.  I went to Bostick Plantation last - not a bad place but did not seem like a lot of hogs running around.  I was lucky and got 2 - the other 3 guys I was with did not see a one!!!

[Mikey]

joe s:  I have not had any problems at all with the Bushnell Banner Dawn to Dusk scopes - they are clear as a bell in low light (like dawn and dusk) and are basically shotgun scopes that take the recoil of heavy rifles.  The one I used to test out heavy 444 loads hasn't wimpered once or lost focus or zero.  I have 3 of those scopes and they all work just right.  I'm going to pull one off an old 303 I have and put it on a Swedish 8mm I am working with.  At about $80 per scope they are a great bargain.  I compared the Bushnell to the same scope from Thompson (for the Contender/Encore) and the Bushnell gave a better view with better clarity.

As for the firelapping - it might take you an hour or so to complete the process but it is fun.  And it lets you know that even slow moving slugs can be accurate and powerful from the 444.  Let me give you an example: when you firelap your bore you shoot soft cast slugs impregnated with lapping compound (use what they send you and nothing else) at very slow speeds - this imparts the controlled wear factor to the bore that enhances accuracy.  Using a powder charge of just 5 grains of Unique for lapping purpposes I found the 240 gn soft lead bullets I was shooting to penetrate through 6" of cut pine.  I dropped the powder charge to 4 gns so I could recover some bullets and see if the slug was picking up all the rifling in the barrel - which they did.  But, even with a small charge of 5 gns of Unique, after lapping was completed, a 240 gn slug from the 444 is pure plinkin' fun.  

The 444 I first lapped was the former Black Shadow I spoke to earlier - it carries the Marlin Micro-groove barrel - she started shooting 3-5" groups at 50 yds before lapping, depending on the cast slug used, but after lapping (and scoped) she shot under 1" at 100 yds with the Beartooth heavy cast and gas-checked slugs.  It helps to know that you are shooting a lever gun that can plant those heavy slugs right down the ear canal.  The Russian Boar I took was a mean sob - he had treed one guide and chased other hunters and game out of the area.  He was holed up in a deadfall when I got to within eyesight of him (75 or so yds) and he was eyeballin' the poor guide who was halfway up a tree trying to stay away from him.  My only shot was from about 75-80 yds and through a small window (less than 4") in the brush around the deadfall.  The slug took him clean, but I had to make the shot without any form of support except my left knee.  It wasn't the easiest shot I have ever made but it took some looing around to see how I was going to do it.  If I hadn't lapped that barrel for the enhanced accuracy I could never have taken the shot with as much confidence as I did.  You will notice the improvements immediately.  HTH.  Mikey.

[joe s]

Okay I went and finally did it.......... special ordered at good old Wally World (Walmart) the Marlin 444. Hopefully should get it in a week or so..... - saved over $70 from the gun store for the Marlin)
Now I am ordering the Bushnell Banner Dawn to Dusk today (thanks for your input Mikey)

Now I am wondering which type of rings to get that will hold up to the triple 4?!? - which ones do you all use?

Also does anyone have "real life" ballistics for the Hornady 265 Light Mag and the Remmington 240 loads? I know what the web sites say - but looking for what everyone has theirs sight-in at and the different yardage drops....

Lastly..... Mikey - if I am going to shot regular factory loads - do I need to do the firelapping - or is that just to shoot hard cast home loaded ammo?

I really appreciate all the responses/help this forum has given me.... sorry to ask so many questions.

Joe

[Mikey]

joe s:  I used plain ol Weaver style rings, whoever makes them, but the ones using the allen screw rather than the slotted screws - they seem to hold better.  I also use a little locktite to dampen vibration in/on the screw threads.

Real world ballistics for both the 240 gn and the Hornaday 265 gn Light Magnum are about the same from your 20" bbl, somewhere around 2300'/sec, and that is plenty for those weight slugs.  With factory 240s, if sight in for 1" high at 100 yds, you will be about that at 50 yds and about an inch or so low at 150.  You will be close to 2-3" low at 200 yds.  

Firelapping improves the accuracy of all bullets, at least in my rifles and pistols, regardless of the bullet used.  Jacketed bullets have responded as favorably as the cast bullets have.  After you have purchased, scoped and shot that beast, even if you plan on staying with jacketed bullets either the 240 or the 265 will work very well on either of the critters you mentioned.  

I last hunted in South Carolina 30 years ago.  We hunted whitetail and hog in one of the game managment areas near the coast.  I took two large hogs (380 and 380-something) pounds with my Marlin with a 24" bbl - I used handloads with the 265 gn Hornaday bullet and never had a problem.  My preference for the past few years however, coupled with my feeling that the 444 really performs with heavy hard-cast slugs, has been for the cast, gas-checked bullets from Beartooth.  Excellent stuff.  HTH.  Mikey.

[clodbuster]

Joe   Asking questions is what this place is for.   By pistol bullets I mainly mean 240 gr jacketed.  I have seen factory loads with this bullet splatter on the side of an elk.  The 265gr was developed specifically for the 444 and shoots from my gun just fine.  Just a suggestion,  wait before you firelap any new gun.  It might just be fine the way it came from the factory.  The breaking in process is vital to gaining good accuracy from a new barrel.  For the first 10 rounds clean after every shot.   For the next 20 rds clean each 2 shots.  Then clean every 5 shots etc.  Be sure to get out the copper with each cleaning using something like Sweets 7.62 or other ammonia based cleaner.  Good luck with a great cartridge.

[elyod56]

the hornady 265gr. softpoint is an excellent bullet in the 444. loaded to around 2200fps it will cleanly take any of the hogs i used to hunt in northern california. they woiuld weight up to 200 lbs. not one got up after a solid hit.

[jd45]

Victorcharlie, I just did a google search for U. S. Repeating Arms Co. & came up with the fact that a Belgian outfit called the Herstal Group owns it, as well as Browning. Since it's next to France, it may boil down to the same thing, but I understand there's still a lot of appreciation for what we did for them in WWII among the populace. Just my 2 cents & thanx for your service to our country........Happy 4th of July, jd45

[hogdgonhead]

I own a Model 94 (in 44mag) and a Marlin in 45/70. Love both guns. Funny thing about the Marlin was when I was shooting hot loads, the front sight hood tended to fly off! LOL. I stuck an ATN sight on my guide gun and never looked back.

You will really enjoy that marlin.