Question for you knife makers ...

[Ken in SENM]

A good while ago, I bought a Cold Steel SRK (I think that is the Model #) from one of their catalogs which listed some models in "Seconds" quality for sale. It is not a bad sized knife, although it it a bit bigger than I really like. It is also has an edge that is a good deal thicker than I like. I read somewhere the other day (forgot where now, CRS you know?) where someone spent the time to reshape the edge to a thinner profile, less chisel edged, using their sharpening stones. I can imagine that took a good deal of time and dedication. If I could manage to do this to my blade, it would make it more useful to me, and might get that blade out of the drawer once in a while.

Could not this blade be reshaped by using a belt grinder? If so, what grit belts would a guy need? I have a Sears brand sander that has a 6 inch disc with a table and a 2 inch belt that runs vertically behind a small table area. Is this tool suitable to perform this task? If so, would the grinding be done by holding the blade in front of the vertical running belt? Should the belt be unsupported or not behind the grinding area? Edge up or edge down? If done in this manner, how do I keep from overheating the blade and ruining it? I have worked on hammer spurs,etc.  from firearms in the past by holding the item with my bare fingers and cooling the metal in water at the point that it gets too hot to hold, working very slowly to keep the temperature down.

However, it seems to me that the very thin edge of the blade would get much hotter than the thicker blade material where I would be able to hold with my bare fingers and stay out of the belt. I also am concerned about the easiest way to strictly maintain the desired angle along the complete length of the blade. I have sharpened some hoes and grubbing tools on a grinder before and it is nearly impossible to avoid a hot spot on the edge. That spot then won't hold up to hard use. I usually use a file for this instead. Could a file be used on this blade to speed up the process?

I guess I am asking you to quickly and easily tell me how you do something that took you a good bit of time and effort to learn, probably at great expense, and which may not be easily told in a few words. If so, you won't hurt my feelings by saying so. I don't want to ruin this blade, but I also consider it one that I could use to learn on. I sure don't expect my first efforts to be perfect, but if I can remove some metal with the belt and then finish the job on the stones, seems to me it would go a lot faster. You may better be able to refer me to a good reference book that would describe this process easier than you can do so in detail here. That would be great.

Would I be better served to box this item up and send it to one of you guys and allow you to work your magic for me? If so, how much time would it take and what would it cost for your labor? I kind of hate to spend more than the knife cost to get it reground, but ......? Any info or suggestions will be appreciated.

[JeffG]

Ok, my two cents only.
 It seems to me like you are in need of a project.  :wink:
 First, If you cannot bear to think of this knife as being junked after you finish trying to improve it, I wouldn't touch it.  It's a gamble....you don't gamble $20 you can't spend.  
BUT, if you want to learn, I say go for it.  As a novice, with anything we  can learn by doing.  For me, experimenting with power tools is "iffy"  things can get away from you too fast.  I suggest that you use hand tools, take it slow, and realize not only what you are accomplishing, but the real talent that good knifemakers posess.  I really stand in awe of a full-blown custom knifemaker.  

Get yourself a small flat file.  You will need decreasing grits of aluminm oxide CLOTH  from say 100 to 440 or 500.  Tape up the handle with masking tape, and protect the guard.  Protect the handle with towels or blocks, and chuck it into a vise.  

Wrap the file in aluminum oxide paper, and slowly start re- shaping your blade, using a draw filing motion, going with finer grits untill you get what you want.  Take regular breaks, work both sides evenly, listen to country music, :lol:  and spread your work out over several days.
 As a safety suggestion, Don't leave the knife in the vise when you are not working on it...someone could run into it.
If you get a nice finish in the 440 grit range, you won't even need to polish it....it will look nice.  If you like what you have done, but need it  buffed, UPS it to me, and I will do it for nothing!

Good luck, let us know how it goes.
JeffG

[Joel]

Ken, I really agree with what Jeff has to say on this.  Went over to the cold steel website and looked at the SRK and regrinding that blade poses several problems, the biggest one being it's sabre ground.  That means if you want to thin the beveled area, you have to do that and maintain that grind line at the same time if you want to keep that profile(but thinner).  Doing that on a power grinder requires a certain amount of expertise, mainly in maintaining that grind line while thinning the blade bevel, and it's surely something that I'd be hesitant to try, especially not being able to hold the actual knife and seeing how the grind was done.  The real tricky part is maintaining that grind line as you get close to the point.  When I first started making knives, I made sabre ground ones, using old files and bayonets,
and I did it pretty much as Jeff describes.  At that point I'd never even heard of a belt grinder.  Only difference is I started with 80# emory paper and worked up.  Actually I usually started with 40# but it'll tend to round the point where the bevel meets the flat.  Straight AO paper doesn't last long on hardened steel designed to resist abrasion.  A four inch blade would take me anywhere from two to three DAYS working around four/six hours a day. 'Course even back then I was mirror polishing so I usually sanded up to around 1200#.  When I discovered belt grinders I was in seventh heaven, and didn't even mind that I screwed up my first couple of blades and had to junk them.  Actually I ended up screwing up more than just a couple.  At that speed, all it takes is a tiny bit of pressure in the wrong direction for a split second, an you start thinking about creative new designs 'cause what you were doing isn't gonna work anymore.  Not trying to discourge you, but what you're thinking of doing is actually a fairly advanced bit of machining and if you've no experience at all in blade grinding you're going to run into problems. The files I started on cost me 50 cents at the surplus city store and the bayonets were free(I'd inherited a bunch of them from my Dad).  Last I looked, your blade sells for $68.50 at the one site I looked at, and that's an expensive piece of "learning" steel.  If I was in your shoes I'd figured I had a couple of options(a) leave it alone, after all it does "work" after a fashion(b) give it to my least favorite in-law for Christmas(c) go to an auction site and get back at least some of my money(d) try by hand and learn great lessons in patience and perserverance.  I mean,even using a belt grinder I still do an awful lot of hand sanding/finishing and it'll give some appreciation of what it takes to make that simple looking tool.  Probably your last option is to have the blade totally flat ground, removing the flat entirely, but again it depends a lot on how the point area is ground.  If you do want to say the hell with it, I'm  going to do it on my grinder anyway, let me know and I'll give you the basics of belt grinding a blade.  But that's all I can do.  Decisions, decisions.

[Ken in SENM]

Two Cents worth, Jeff?  I'd say at least a couple bucks worth!! And confirmed and added to by Joel. I kinda suspected that both of you would say what you have said (in general), and I perceive that you both have given very good advice based on actual good experience. I hope you recognized from my original post that I am very hesitant to proceed with power tools, having already observed the potential for almost instant disaster if one is not properly schooled and experienced with their use. Trouble is, one only becomes those things by sacrificing some project material, and I would hate to ruin a knife that has at least some monetary value while I learn.

I had thought of using a file, but had not thought of using the paper wrapped around the file. I have an old file or two that are mostly used up that would be great for the purpose. I have used a thick piece of glass to keep a piece of emory cloth perfectly flat while removing material and polishing internal parts of revolvers, so I have a bit of experience with the paper.  

This definitely would be a "project", Jeff, and another one of those is not what I need right now!! Am I the only one who is overloaded with "projects"? I doubt it! Still and all, I am intrigued by the possibilites using the file and the paper, as each of you has suggested. I would feel much more comfortable working on the (any) blade in this manner, especially as far as maintaining the angles and edge and controlling temperatures are concerned. I will take a closer look at the blade based on your comments, Joel, and decide then whether or not to mess with it. As you said, it now works, after a fashion.

Once again, thanks very much for sharing your knowledge and expertise with a fellow whose possession of either is limited. Jeff, the country music suggestion is a good one, especially if you are talking about the older stuff from the 50's and 60's, and if you include a bit of bluegrass with the mix. I also happen to have discovered again the rock and roll music from the same era, which the youngsters in my work place refer to as "elevator music" or "stone-age rock and roll". I like some of that type music better now than I did then. Both styles of music from those years seems kind of tame compared to the stuff that is being played today. At least I can understand the words of the old stuff, and can still pat my foot quickly enough to keep up with the beat!!

I just remembered that I have actually "made a knife or two. I have taken a hack saw blade and ground the point end in a curved "sheepsfoot" pattern, then "sharpened" the area that contained the teeth of the blade. I then shaped a piece of hardwood into a simple handle wide enough to accept the hacksaw blade internally, cut a kerf in the handle down about 3 inches to allow the blade to be inserted in the kerf, used epoxy to glue the blade in the handle, and then wrapped the handle with nylon cord about 1/16th inch in diameter, tucking the ends under the wrap. I then coated the whole thing with urethane (I think, it has been a while!) to seal it. The blade sticks out of the handle about an inch and 3/4ths, and the overall length is paring knife sized. This is a "safe" knife, thin and sharp enough for lots of things, letter opening, package opening, etc but not strong enough to be used for serious heavy duty cutting chores. That means that the wrapped handle is satisfactory since not much pressure is used when the knife is at work.

Well thanks again for your very valuable advice, and thanks for listening to my rambling.

[Naphtali]

I'm the guy who reshaped his chisel into something useful.

I did not use power grinder. Long, long ago, in another galaxy . . . wait -- that's another story. When I ground blades via power, I used bare fingers and a bucket of water right there. When my fingers got hot, the blade was not yet cooked -- dunk it. Burned fingers, good blade.
************
1. What I did do is, perhaps, the supreme cludge of all time. Blade is .187 inch thick. I bought aluminum scrap strip .187 x 2.5 x more than 7. Knife and aluminum are cleaned. Using a cheap epoxy/super glue, glue aluminum to back of knife. Now, we're looking at a "knife" that is more than twice as deep as original.

2. I used a diamond kit bought from SMKW in Sevierville, TN. Clamp the fixture to the back of the deep knife. Then, under running water, "sharpen" the saber grind to where you want it, swapping sides frequently.

This procedure takes a L O N G time. But the nice thing is it's very difficult to ruin the knife because you are removing so little metal each removal series.

I use a jeweler's head-mounted magnifier to periodically look at the blade point on. This is to verify you are reshaping symetrically.

When you are finished, use any hand torch to put heat at the glued metal-to-metal joint. Cheap glue will disintegrate at less than 200 degrees Fahrenheit.

AND EVERYONE IS CORRECT. WORK ON COLD STEEL'S "SECONDS." The only differences between commercial quality and second are cosmetic. Usually, the blade is ground cock-eyed. But so what?

[Ken in SENM]

Thanks, Naph ...

Sounds like a pretty ingenious solution to me. I like the way you approached the "problem", with a solution that can be applied by any of us unskilled laborers!! I have more than one blade that has a detestable angle on the sharpened portion and which needs attention. I have considered buying one of the devices that holds the sharpener at a set angle which would simplify keeping that straight, as you have described very well. Thanks a lot for chiming in!!