Author Topic: Modern materials for barrel making -  (Read 2215 times)

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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Modern materials for barrel making -
« on: June 01, 2005, 12:27:00 PM »
I have a few concerns about how discussions have been going.

We've certainly run through a range of emotions today.

First and formost is my concern for safety, then legality, fun and politeness.

Let's keep the remarks civil - if you don't agree, say so, AND explain your
 concerns and reasons (in enough detail to be of some educational use).  
Comments like 'go open a book and find out' are unwarrented.  As some have observed, the strength of this forum is the free and open flow of ideas and wide ranging discussion - lets keep that tradition.

So where will this topic go?  Hopefully in a detailed discussion of the type of strengths and characteristics of materials suitable (or not) for making barrels.

Again, the issue of safety is foremost.  When it comes to design, most of us are neither metalurgists nor mechanical engineers by training or trade.  

So the best alternative is to observe what others have done successfully over a period of time - and add a significant safety factor in our copy.


So, to start with, allow me to say that modern rifle barrels are often (perhpaps most often?) made of 4130 or 4140.  Hence because of the high pressure applications, should be a good candidate for barrels we play with.
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Offline Cat Whisperer

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« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2005, 01:01:22 PM »
Here are a few steels of interest - of note are the types of applications listed in the text.

12L14  (a resulpherized steel as is 1144sp  )
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Campus/8262/htdocs/steels/12L14.html

4140  (used in barrels)
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Campus/8262/htdocs/steels/4140.html


1018  (offen referred to as cold-rolled, but can also be hot rolled.)
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Campus/8262/htdocs/steels/1018.html


8620 (used in M-16 bolts - tough stuff!)
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Campus/8262/htdocs/steels/8620.html
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Offline claypipe

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Re: Modern materials for barrel making -
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2005, 03:20:58 PM »
[argumentative/inflammatory remark(s) deleted by CW]

Quote

So, to start with, allow me to say that modern rifle barrels are often (perhpaps most often?) made of 4130 or 4140.  Hence because of the high pressure applications, should be a good candidate for barrels we play with.


These will definitely do the job, but will add to production time and cost of material and tooling. Green Mountain uses 4140 for their Sharps BPCR barrels.

Offline guardsgunner

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« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2005, 03:40:01 PM »
CW,
    You might want to talk to a metallurgist before deciding on 12L14 as a steel for an serious Artillery project. MHO and not based on any claimed knowledge of anything at all.

Offline HotGuns

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« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2005, 03:51:04 PM »
I do have a concern about the what the references have to say about some of the steels such as 12L14.


Due to high sulfur content, these grades are not considered as weldable.

Weldable? we do it every day at work with no problems. It may not be the best or easiest to weld but it is weldable.

Hardening

Although these grades will respond to conventional treatments, they are not considered case-hardening steels. Better results can be obtained from 1117 or 1018.


Conventional treatments ? It dosent have enough carbon in it to be heatreated by anything other than case hardening. Many rifle and pistol dies are used with case hardened 12L14. I've case hardened many tools made from it over the years with good success.

Offline Cat Whisperer

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« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2005, 04:00:28 PM »
Quote from: HotGuns
I do have a concern about the what the references have to say about some of the steels such as 12L14.


Due to high sulfur content, these grades are not considered as weldable.

Weldable? we do it every day at work with no problems. It may not be the best or easiest to weld but it is weldable.

Hardening

Although these grades will respond to conventional treatments, they are not considered case-hardening steels. Better results can be obtained from 1117 or 1018.


Conventional treatments ? It dosent have enough carbon in it to be heatreated by anything other than case hardening. Many rifle and pistol dies are used with case hardened 12L14. I've case hardened many tools made from it over the years with good success.



I think the issue of weldability is to reduce some folks expectations of it being easily weldable.  I usually will look at 3 or 4 references to see what perspectives are portrayed.  If there's a concern that's valid it will show up in most all of the refereneces.

I look at case hardening and nitriding as conventional treatments when there isn't enough carbon.

Again, I appreciate your comments - the voice of experience doesn't have to talk very loudly for me to listen.
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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Modern materials for barrel making -
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2005, 04:21:09 PM »
Quote from: guardsgunner
CW,
    You might want to talk to a metallurgist before deciding on 12L14 as a steel for an serious Artillery project. MHO and not based on any claimed knowledge of anything at all.


If you look at Hotgun's post on the comparison of 1144sp and 12L14 there are some very good points made.  

There is a drawback on 1144 being of crystaline structure - IF the elastic limit is exceded or IF the interior ballistics do cause some damage to the interior of the bore.  This is the point where experience comes in - taking a look at what has been successful in others' practice.

But in perspective, any of our modernday materials is much more uniform in manufacture and of much greater strength, ductility and toughness than the originals made only 100 years ago - and we're looking at designs of 2-300 years ago (OK, black powder is better too.)

There are rules of thumb of design - from experience.  Claypipe has one on miniimum barrel thickness.  The N-SSA has one on miniimum breech thickness - and is one that I respect because of it's very broad and successful application over a long number of years.
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Offline dominick

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Modern materials for barrel making -
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2005, 04:52:49 PM »
Dillsburg Aeroplane Works, Dillsburg PA. ph# 717- 432-4589 is one of the largest suppliers of 4130 condition N tubing and stock on the east coast.  More than half of their business is selling materials to the gun making industry.  They carry heavy wall 4130 tubing that would be ideal for a small caliber handgonne.  I also have been using the same rule of thumb as Claypipe when it comes to breech thickness (wall thickness = bore divided by two) or (bore x two = breech O.D.) I only apply this rule when using 4130 and have built and fired many cannons without mishap using the proper powder load.

Offline Cat Whisperer

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« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2005, 05:05:35 PM »
Quote from: dominick
Dillsburg Aeroplane Works, Dillsburg PA. ph# 717- 432-4589 is one of the largest suppliers of 4130 condition N tubing and stock on the east coast.  More than half of their business is selling materials to the gun making industry.  They carry heavy wall 4130 tubing that would be ideal for a small caliber handgonne.  I also have been using the same rule of thumb as Claypipe when it comes to breech thickness (wall thickness = bore divided by two) or (bore x two = breech O.D.) I only apply this rule when using 4130 and have built and fired many cannons without mishap using the proper powder load.


I have a lot of respect for suppliers of aircraft materials - for obvious reasons.  

Key words - good to hear them expressed again - "using the proper powder load".

Thanks for the source!
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Offline claypipe

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« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2005, 05:52:20 PM »
Quote from: dominick
Dillsburg Aeroplane Works, Dillsburg PA. ph# 717- 432-4589 is one of the largest suppliers of 4130 condition N tubing and stock on the east coast.  More than half of their business is selling materials to the gun making industry.  They carry heavy wall 4130 tubing that would be ideal for a small caliber handgonne.  I also have been using the same rule of thumb as Claypipe when it comes to breech thickness (wall thickness = bore divided by two) or (bore x two = breech O.D.) I only apply this rule when using 4130 and have built and fired many cannons without mishap using the proper powder load.


[argumentative/inflammatory remark(s) deleted by CW] On calibers .69 to 1.0 I would use a dual chamber, the smaller chamber being a diameter of .500 to .562. And I shouild mention I am not a propoent to welding on gun barrels of any kind.

Offline Cat Whisperer

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« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2005, 01:35:15 AM »
Quote from: claypipe
 ...  Okay, when did we switch from handgonnes to artillery? ...

And I shouild mention I am not a propoent to welding on gun barrels of any kind.


It's not uncommon for there to be more than one topic in a thread around here.

AND, although it CAN be done if done correctly, I agree with not welding barrels.  I have done it, but the risk of cracks makes it worth the effort (to me) to go another route.  On the flip side, I know some certified welders and folks that do the certification - their welding I trust.
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Offline guardsgunner

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« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2005, 04:53:22 AM »
Claypipe
  Blackpowder mortar and cannons is the titled topic for this board. Artillery.
Handgonnes are kind of off topic but the discussion of this thread. Ok fine by me. I'm into anything that shoots.
 12L14 was being recommended as a material to be used in construction on this board. So I express my concern for its use by those of this board.
  12l14 is the stuff they make the cheap screws you buy at the local hardware store out of . You know the kind where the head strips at the first use. The 12L14 machines like a dream (The lead helps here) and looks good on paper; it was recommended to me not to use this material as it COULD fracture after having been drawn (such as to octagon)and put under peek pressure's.
  I  am not a metallurgist but would check with one before using 12l14 for an artillery project.

  safety Was my only thought. There were at least 2 accidents last year with people and there homemade cannons which did not have happy endings. They got national news coverage. Cannon shooting events do not. Everytime something goes wrong makes it one step closer to not being able to do it at all.

Offline Third_Rail

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« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2005, 05:05:38 AM »
[argumentative/inflammatory remark(s) deleted by CW]... I thought that claypipe said he was a metallurgist.


So I guess I'll tough it through 4140 or 4130, then heat treat. Easy machining isn't anywhere as important as safety.

Offline GGaskill

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« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2005, 08:35:33 AM »
You won't need to heat treat.  The annealed state is strong enough and it is more malleable (less brittle) that way.
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Offline claypipe

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« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2005, 08:42:10 AM »
Quote from: guardsgunner
Claypipe
  Blackpowder mortar and cannons is the titled topic for this board. Artillery.
Handgonnes are kind of off topic but the discussion of this thread. Ok fine by me. I'm into anything that shoots.
 12L14 was being recommended as a material to be used in construction on this board. So I express my concern for its use by those of this board.
  12l14 is the stuff they make the cheap screws you buy at the local hardware store out of . You know the kind where the head strips at the first use. The 12L14 machines like a dream (The lead helps here) and looks good on paper; it was recommended to me not to use this material as it COULD fracture after having been drawn (such as to octagon)and put under peek pressure's.


Okay, let's sort this out. I was on the subject of materials used for the making of handgonne barrels. And I will stand by what I have said in the use of 12L14 steel for gonne barrels. 12L14 has been used for years without problems by custom muzzle loading rifle barrel makers such as Colerain and Getz. And those are swamped octagon barrels. If its good enough for the best in the business, its good enough for me.


Quote
I  am not a metallurgist but would check with one before using 12l14 for an artillery project.

  safety Was my only thought. There were at least 2 accidents last year with people and there homemade cannons which did not have happy endings. They got national news coverage. Cannon shooting events do not. Everytime something goes wrong makes it one step closer to not being able to do it at all.


Safety is the only reason I said anything in the first place. After 30 odd years of firearm repairs and refinishing, you learn a thing or two. And its not just cannoneering. For instance the two people that were injured following an age old custom of chasing away evil spirits using family muzzle loading heirlooms and overcharged blanks. It effects us all, whether we like it or not.

Offline claypipe

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« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2005, 08:57:05 AM »
Quote from: Third_Rail
what in the world... I thought that claypipe said he was a metallurgist.

So I guess I'll tough it through 4140 or 4130, then heat treat. Easy machining isn't anywhere as important as safety.


At no point did I state I was a metallurgist.

I did, however, say that one should know their metalurgy when making gonnes barrels.

Over the years, working on vintage and antique firearms and later gonnes, I studied upon what metals best to use for my repairs and gonne barrels. Don't like the idea of using 12L14, then try 1137, that's what Green Mountain is using for their BP muzzle loading rifle barrels these days.

Remember, the harder the steel, the more fragile it becomes. Over do a casehardening and it will shatter just like glass. Gun, cannon and gonne barrels all need to stretch a bit when breathing fire.

Offline Third_Rail

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« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2005, 09:44:42 AM »
My mistake, I thought you had stated you were a metallurgist.


4140 is what I'll be using for my projects from now on re: firearms. Cost be damned, time be damned, safety is paramount.

Offline Cat Whisperer

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« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2005, 12:24:13 PM »
Quote from: Third_Rail
.... 4140 is what I'll be using for my projects from now on re: firearms. Cost be damned, time be damned, safety is paramount.


Certainly not a bad choice.  I've made a couple of dozen mortars of 4140 just to ensure they were overbuilt.  Cost - minor.  What's a few bucks compared to the overall cost of manufacture (time and money) and considering the cost of failure.
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Offline Third_Rail

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« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2005, 01:25:54 PM »
Agreed on that. Did you bother with heat treating?

I doubt I will - just overbuild them further.... breech thickness = bore diameter, barrel thickness = 1/2 bore diameter. Out of 4140, and with reasonable loads of powder, that'll be plenty strong. Now just to get about 10 million opinions, to make sure!  :D

Offline Charcoal

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« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2005, 02:34:03 PM »
Hello,long time lurker.I have been following the materials choice dilema.Have looked at old threads on designs and construction,very nice projects!!I am going to list what current smokeless and BP barrel makers are using.I agree with the attitude to "overbuild",use sane powder charges.Hope this small addition helps in the material selection process.Also look to Oehler research for pressure testing equipment.


http://www.riflebarrels.com/products/default.htm
http://www.hartbarrels.com/
http://www.rifle-barrels.com/
http://www.gmriflebarrel.com/
http://www.badgerbarrelsinc.com/
http://www.montanarifleman.com/barrels.htm
http://www.barsto.com/
http://www.schuemann.com/ (check out the barrel steel listing)
http://www.obermeyerbarrels.com/steel.html

Pressure testing equipment:
http://www.oehler-research.com/

Offline Cat Whisperer

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« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2005, 03:51:05 PM »
Charcoal -

Again, thanks!  Extensive additions (I'll get them into the references section this weekend.)

Our wealth of knowledge grows - in different styles and manners - but we're generally headed in the same direction.
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Offline Double D

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« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2005, 04:16:09 PM »
Gentlemen,
 
I am off  in the wilds of Idaho and dropped back in to see what's going on  and how the various projects are going and I am appalled by what I found. I edited one message but there is so much that be edited that this message will have to suffice.  
 
This board is for discussion, not arguing.  If you see an unsafe act being advocated you are encouraged to step right in and let us know. Tell us how the act is unsafe and tell us how to correct the defect, politely.
 
But if your method of delivery is rude, impolite or offensive then the message is is not delivered in the spirit of this board.  I don't care what your back ground is or what you experience, if you cannot be civil or polite the you are not welcome on this board,  go some where else.
 
If you find you cannot carrying a discussion without be rude,crude and offensive you will find your messages will be edit , delete or blocked.

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Offline Cat Whisperer

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« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2005, 01:15:59 AM »
Quote from: claypipe
  ...

 I feel I was quite reasonable in my original postings.
...



You stepped into the middle of a design process.  It looks like you were invited.  It may not have been apparent that it was an on-going process.


Reasonable in concern for safety?  There is no question that is all of our concerns.


Reasonable in the issue of strength - it is always reasonable to question it.  A complete discussion of the characteristics of strengths and effects of repetitive firings are still open.


BUT, that is not what DD and three or four of us have directly or indirectly addressed with you.  Your concerns are valid, many of your recommendations are very good.  Your perceptions (that you've posted) of how others react to you are good.  (That's a polite way of saying many of us think your STYLE is unreasonable.)

You may debate whether or not the design would have ended up safe.  It would have, without you.  

Because of these issues, I'm recommending that the project be dropped.  Several reasons - some of them personal.  Mostly because of the time required to go through the design (form) and potential conflicts of time with others involved in the project.

Further, I'm changing my approach.  I've put up with a lot of 'attitude' because of the relevance of the issues.  We are all guests here.  Act appropriately.
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Offline claypipe

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« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2005, 01:57:50 AM »
Quote from: CAV Trooper

Guys,
As this seems to be proceeding forward, I figured I'd better start a new thread.

Knowing your interest in these things and in anticipation of a possible group buy, I drew up a design for a handgonne over the weekend. I took it down to my machinist friend today and was able to work out a production run with him at a cost I that think will be very attractive to you all.

The design is basically the same as the one without any tapers that GGaskill posted in the previous thread. Also, Since I haven't found a source for 1144SP hex bar stack, I went with round. I used this design figuring that the K.I.S.S. principal would hold the cost down. I was right, it did. IÂ’d scan the thing and post it but the full sized drawing is too big for my scanner.

The basic dimensions are as follows:

Material – 1.25” diameter 1144SP round steel bar (100,000psi)
Total length – 12”
Bore - .60 caliber, 8.5” deep (Will shoot .59 lead balls)
Butt end drilled .74” x 2.5” deep for a .75” wooden stick
Touch hole – .125” (for liability reasons, the touch hole will not be drilled completely through)

If desired, and somebody wants one, the handgonne can also be made from 1.50” C360 hex brass bar with a .50 bore. This will look really cool and I plan to do one of these for myself.  

Now to the bottom line...With an order of 10 or more handgonnes, either all steel, all brass or any combination of the two, the price IÂ’ve been able to work out is as follows:

Steel - $75 each
Brass - $95 each (this reflects the additional cost for the material)

The price does't include the actual shipping costs to the purchaser but those shouldnÂ’t be more than $10 per handgonne.

If youÂ’re interested in getting one of these or have any other questions, email me at: cavtrooper6970@aol.com


Quote from: Cat Whisperer
That price is great! It's obvious that this is not a money-making proposition, but a 'group-buy' like has been done many times with Lee bullet moulds on the cast bullet boards.

Have you set a cut-off date, or is it a little early to be thinking of that?

I would think you'd want a minimum number before committing to do this.
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Quote from: Cat Whisperer
Quote from: claypipe
  ...

 I feel I was quite reasonable in my original postings.
...



You stepped into the middle of a design process.  It looks like you were invited.  It may not have been apparent that it was an on-going process.


 Quoting prices and asking for orders come at the end of design process, not the beginning or middle. (argumentive statements deleted-DD)

Offline Cat Whisperer

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« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2005, 02:03:40 PM »
Quote from: guardsgunner
.... 12L14 was being recommended as a material to be used in construction on this board. So I express my concern for its use by those of this board.
  12l14 is the stuff they make the cheap screws you buy at the local hardware store out of . You know the kind where the head strips at the first use. The 12L14 machines like a dream (The lead helps here) and looks good on paper; it was recommended to me not to use this material as it COULD fracture after having been drawn (such as to octagon)and put under peek pressure's. ....


Let's sort out some of the principles here.

Mild steels (Bessemer conversion process) historically revolutionized (mid 1800's) making of cannons.  They were of much greater strength that what was commonly available - cast iron and bronze.

The huge advantage of mild steel was/is the ability to withstand flexing and stressing without fracturing - malleability is closely related to this.  It wears better than bronze (hence good for rifled barrels) but not as good for wear than alloy steels (as 4130/4140/4340 and others).

Drawing mild steel (mild steels include 1018, 1020, 1045, 1137, 1144, 1214 and many others) has the advantage of changing the grain structure (lengthening the grain) increasing strength, but has the disadvantage of work-hardening.  Hence, cold rolled steels will be stronger, of smoother finish (also related to strength - note the Charpy tests), and a bit more expensive than hot rolled steels which have more scale and are softer, not quite as strong, but less brittle.  

Annealing the steel, as in stress proof or stress relieved, reduces the hardness, keeps the strength and increases the cost.  

Lead is often added as an inter-molecular lubricant - it greatly increases the ability of steels to be machined at great speed, hence it is loved by machinists that have to produce parts fast.

So the mild steels are good choices for cannon, perhaps they don't have the super strengths of alloy steels, but are tough and withstand repeated firing.  There are quite a range of steels that will work.

When you see blackpowder rifles being made of mild steels and modern rifles made of alloy steels it tells you something of the differences in application, notably pressure and wear.  Typical pressures for modern high pressure cartridges are in the ranges of 50-55,000 copper units pressure (roughly PSI - but there are a number of issues in comparing them directly as they are measured by different means).  Blackpowder loads for the same cartridges (like for example .45-70) are greatly reduced in pressure - more like 1/2 or 2/3.  

High velocity rifles run from 3000 to 4000 fps commonly.  Modern howitzers (as 105 and 155mm) run something like 2700 and tank cannon (direct fire high velocity) runs close to 4000 if I remember right.

Again applications for two different categories of steel - that is to say, mild steels in general are well suited for what we've been looking at.
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline GGaskill

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Modern materials for barrel making -
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2005, 02:22:49 PM »
Since we are starting to get more technical in our discussion of materials, I thought I would add http://www.sv.vt.edu/classes/MSE2094_NoteBook/97ClassProj/anal/kelly/fatigue.html" target="_blank">a link to a discussion of metal fatigue (the real thing, not the computer game of the same name.)  It has some math in it but the math can be ignored without loss of benefit.
GG
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« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2005, 02:55:46 PM »
Quote from: GGaskill
Since we are starting to get more technical in our discussion of materials, I thought I would add http://www.sv.vt.edu/classes/MSE2094_NoteBook/97ClassProj/anal/kelly/fatigue.html" target="_blank">a link to a discussion of metal fatigue (the real thing, not the computer game of the same name.)  It has some math in it but the math can be ignored without loss of benefit.



Interesting reading - I've seen failures like those he illustrated, but hadn't examined the causes.
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Modern materials for barrel making -
« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2005, 01:42:29 AM »
Quote from: Third_Rail
[argumentative/inflammatory remark(s) deleted by CW]... I thought that claypipe said he was a metallurgist.


So I guess I'll tough it through 4140 or 4130, then heat treat. Easy machining isn't anywhere as important as safety.
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Modern materials for barrel making -
« Reply #28 on: June 04, 2005, 01:56:01 AM »
Quote from: claypipe
Quote from: Third_Rail
[argumentative/inflammatory remark(s) deleted by CW]... I thought that claypipe said he was a metallurgist.

So I guess I'll tough it through 4140 or 4130, then heat treat. Easy machining isn't anywhere as important as safety.


At no point did I state I was a metallurgist.

I did, however, say that one should know their metalurgy when making gonnes barrels.

Over the years, working on vintage and antique firearms and later gonnes, I studied upon what metals best to use for my repairs and gonne barrels. Don't like the idea of using 12L14, then try 1137, that's what Green Mountain is using for their BP muzzle loading rifle barrels these days.

Remember, the harder the steel, the more fragile it becomes. Over do a casehardening and it will shatter just like glass. Gun, cannon and gonne barrels all need to stretch a bit when breathing fire.
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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« Reply #29 on: June 04, 2005, 02:15:32 AM »
The above two posts were inadvertently converted to MY posts with quotations of the original posters.  This apparently happened in the editing process by having the add-signature block checked.

I have done extensive editing in this topic.  Not my (or anyone's) favorite activity.

Please see the "rules of the forum" sticky at the top of the forum and Graybeard's Terms Of Use:  http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/gbo/gbo-tos.php .
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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