Author Topic: Where to Get a Handgonne? (Read 3579 times)

CrufflerSteve · « **on:** May 19, 2005, 07:05:09 AM »

I've been developing an interest in older things and what better than a handgonne or hand cannon?

I've looked to see who sells them and it isn't good.

handgonnes .com, http://www.handgonnes.com/index.html is shut down and who know when they will open.

The Rifle Shoppe, http://www.therifleshoppe.com/hand_gonnes.htm
has some reasonably priced nice looking ones but they have a mixed reputation. At the very least, you'll wait a long, long time to get your item.

Does anybody know of a source for affordable handgonnes or have one to sell?

Steve

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #1 on:** May 19, 2005, 02:24:25 PM »

They are a bit out of the mainstream; but on the other hand they are easy to make (hint) because of the small diameter.

Mine started as a piece of 1-1/2" CRS (1018) about a foot long.

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=50767&highlight=handgonne

.

CrufflerSteve · « **Reply #2 on:** May 19, 2005, 04:38:17 PM »

They are easy to make - if you have a lathe. That is on my list of items to get but something, like a mortar, always gets in the way.

Steve

John N · « **Reply #3 on:** May 20, 2005, 01:21:20 AM »

I e-mailed the Rifle Shoppe about wait times and received this response:

Quote

The current wait time for the brass octagon barrel is 3 - 4 months, from the time it is ordered.

Despite the long wait, I just might have to order one. They did indicate they accept credit card payments by phone if you don't want to use PayPal.

CrufflerSteve · « **Reply #4 on:** May 20, 2005, 01:27:30 AM »

Quote from: John N

I e-mailed the Rifle Shoppe about wait times and received this response:

Quote
The current wait time for the brass octagon barrel is 3 - 4 months, from the time it is ordered.

Despite the long wait, I just might have to order one. They did indicate they accept credit card payments by phone if you don't want to use PayPal.

Over at http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com in the pre-flintlock forum, The Rifle Shoppe has been extensively discussed. People seem to be not very happy with them and find if anything arrives within 6 months you are doing good.

Steve

GGaskill · « **Reply #5 on:** May 25, 2005, 09:16:08 PM »

I printed and scaled the "Tannenberg Handgonne" from Ulrich Bretscher's site and made an "AutoCAD" drawing of it, then converted that to a gif which is available by clicking the image below. The drawing is too wide for inclusion in the post (992 pixels.) If you would prefer, I can email copies of the .dwg file to anyone interested. PM me with the request and your email address.

Remember the drawing is from a measured image and may not be a perfect representation of the original.

CrufflerSteve · « **Reply #6 on:** May 26, 2005, 05:18:16 AM »

Quote from: GGaskill

I printed and scaled the "Tannenberg Handgonne" from Ulrich Bretscher's site and made an "AutoCAD" drawing of it, then converted that to a gif which is available by clicking the image below. The drawing is too wide for inclusion in the post (992 pixels.) If you would prefer, I can email copies of the .dwg file to anyone interested. PM me with the request and your email address.

Remember the drawing is from a measured image and may not be a perfect representation of the original.

http://68.190.219.22:8080/images/tannenberghandgonne.gif" target="_blank">http://musketeer.ch/Bilder/SP_bild/TannenbergBuchse500.JPG">

That is a really worthwhile thing but would it be helpful to my search for a handgonne? I assume that with the AutoCad drawing I could take it to a machine shop. From my limited experience with thwm, I'd get a great unit price if I had a 1000 made. For one, the setup costs would eat me alive.

There is one other problem. The Tanneberg is a really fine looking handgonne. If a replica was made exactly, it would be a bomb. The Tannenberg has a very long chamber. I assume that was due to the poor quality of the gunpowder pf the 14th century. With a chamber that long, I'd worry about pressure. It might be the thickest part of the handgonne but it looks like it holds several times more powder than would be needed with modern powder.

The pictures of it are in the handgonne section of http://musketeer.ch/blackpowder/powder_frameset.html

Steve

John N · « **Reply #7 on:** May 26, 2005, 07:53:58 AM »

Granted there is probably not a huge market demand for handgonnes, but as this thread has shown, the supply of commercially available handgonnes is virtually nil (unless you are willing to wait 6 months or more for one from the RifleShoppe).

As CW has demonstrated, a handgonne is relatively straightforward to build. It seems like a good opportunity for one of the boardÂ’s sponsors to fill the void. (hint, hint)

For those of us lacking machining skills and/or tools, another avenue might be to team up and have a local machine shop construct several copies of a handgonne. That would spread out the set up costs incurred by the shop and bring the prices down. Of course weÂ’d need some solid commitments and agreement on the handgonneÂ’s style, material type, and other details. I would jump at this approach if several others are interested.

(CrufflerSteve, it looks like our avatars are engaging in a little artillery exchange :lol: )

CrufflerSteve · « **Reply #8 on:** May 26, 2005, 08:41:07 AM »

Quote from: John N

(CrufflerSteve, it looks like our avatars are engaging in a little artillery exchange :lol: )

John, you better watch out. I'm about to start casting zinc. :grin:

Your idea is great. How many people are interested in a handgonne and don't have the skills/tools to make one?

There are some things I am looking for:
1. It should be able to shoot lead ball. It shouldn't be a wallhanger.
2. It should look something like an original.
3. It should be easily fireable while holding the pole. This might rule out the heavier ones.

There are some members of this board with the skills and equipment to turn them out. They would be simpler than most cannon since trunnions aren't involved.

I like the Tannenberg but also have a fondness for the ones with hooks. The hooks seem to have been a combination holder and weapon. They look good. Probably simpler is best since it keeps it affordable.

Steve

I do

GGaskill · « **Reply #9 on:** May 26, 2005, 08:56:20 AM »

Have you seen all of http://musketeer.ch/blackpowder/powder_frameset.html" target="_blank">Ulrich's website? Besides making this handgonne, he shoots it with both modern powder and his own homemade powder, so there has been some recent testing of the design. And there is no reason you can't change the design to a shorter powder chamber.

Frankly, it is my opinion that most of the powder is pushed into the main part of the bore before igniting. With the touchhole at the extreme rear, the first lit powder will be expanding and pushing the remaining charge forward.

Sorry to hear you don't have your own shop. Maybe you can convince a board denizen who does and wants to make one for himself to make an extra one for you.

CrufflerSteve · « **Reply #10 on:** May 26, 2005, 09:55:58 AM »

Quote from: GGaskill

Have you seen all of http://musketeer.ch/blackpowder/powder_frameset.html" target="_blank">Ulrich's website? Besides making this handgonne, he shoots it with both modern powder and his own homemade powder, so there has been some recent testing of the design. And there is no reason you can't change the design to a shorter powder chamber.

Frankly, it is my opinion that most of the powder is pushed into the main part of the bore before igniting. With the touchhole at the extreme rear, the first lit powder will be expanding and pushing the remaining charge forward.

I did wonder about the effect of a long skinny chamber. If it pushes out much of the powder so it ignites in the main bore, the ignition is now happening in a dangerously thin walled area.

You'd probably get better results copying the howtizer/mortar type chamber. Shallow and wider. For example, if the Tannenberg was being copied, the bore could be made deeper so that it extends into the thicker walled part of the barrel. That would allow the touch hole to remain in the same place so it is externally the same. It might be prudent to modify the design a bit to make it a Tanneberg-like design, not exact. Somewhat fatter and shorter would add strength.

Steve

GGaskill · « **Reply #11 on:** May 26, 2005, 12:00:52 PM »

Just speculating, but I'll bet that the shot is long gone by the time the second half of the powder charge burns. That design does not allow the expanding gas much opportunity to push on the ball.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #12 on:** May 26, 2005, 12:48:51 PM »

I've been wondering where this thread would lead, considering the interest expressed and the fun that I've had with my handgonne.

On previous occasions, I've done the cad drafting for some 5 or 6 bullet moulds for group buys made by Lee Precision. The process involved a bit of give and take in the planning stages and some brave individual would collect the funds and deal with Lee and have them made. It usually involved at least 25 people/moulds to meet Lee's requirements and threshold for discount prices.

It may be that, if a number of these were to be wanted, that there would be a machine shop that would do the work on a contract basis, or better yet that one of our sponsors would handle the job.

We could certainly get a fair amount of discussion going here about a design that would be simple to manufacture and still be a 'replica' and with looks that would be desireable.

It could be produced in such a form that it would not be a firearm when shipped - and with a bit of research we could be totally on the up and up legally speaking. It could be advertized in the paid advertizing here on GBO and GB would be happy too (got to cover ALL the bases).

At this point I'm tossing out ideas - there are a number of issues and perspectives that all have to be considered.

CrufflerSteve · « **Reply #13 on:** May 26, 2005, 01:49:03 PM »

Quote from: GGaskill

Just speculating, but I'll bet that the shot is long gone by the time the second half of the powder charge burns. That design does not allow the expanding gas much opportunity to push on the ball.

There is more mass in modern projectiles. The original hand gonnes fired rocks. I doubt if many here want to chisel rocks in out spare time. Most hand gonne caliber are in a size where round ball can be easily cast. lead masses more and pushes up pressure. I think any design should be able to handle lead ball which make it cheap tofeed.

Steve

CrufflerSteve · « **Reply #14 on:** May 26, 2005, 03:42:42 PM »

How's this for an unsimple design?

Its from Antiquity Arms which casts them in bronze, a bad choice for
shooting.

Quote from: Cat Whisperer

I've been wondering where this thread would lead, considering the interest expressed and the fun that I've had with my handgonne.

On previous occasions, I've done the cad drafting for some 5 or 6 bullet moulds for group buys made by Lee Precision. The process involved a bit of give and take in the planning stages and some brave individual would collect the funds and deal with Lee and have them made. It usually involved at least 25 people/moulds to meet Lee's requirements and threshold for discount prices..

If several people sign on, I'm sure there will be lots of opinions. The posts of this thread have lots of links to places where you can see pictures of hand gonnes. I think we'd be doing amazingly well to get anywhere close to 25.

It might be time for people to speak up. I'm in for at least one.

Quote

It may be that, if a number of these were to be wanted, that there would be a machine shop that would do the work on a contract basis, or better yet that one of our sponsors would handle the job.

We could certainly get a fair amount of discussion going here about a design that would be simple to manufacture and still be a 'replica' and with looks that would be desireable..

I really like the Tannenburg but we could consider simpler & stronger designs. Here's one from The Rifle Shoppe:

It is quite simple and steel. It could maybe be downsized from .77 caliber.
I've seen some interesting designs where a lathe did rounding on an octagonal piece. That would look good. This is one case where we'd want crude machining, if possible, to get an old look.

Obviously, these should come bare metal without wood. I think most of us here can manage to finish it.

Quote

It could be produced in such a form that it would not be a firearm when shipped - and with a bit of research we could be totally on the up and up legally speaking. It could be advertized in the paid advertizing here on GBO and GB would be happy too (got to cover ALL the bases).

At this point I'm tossing out ideas - there are a number of issues and perspectives that all have to be considered.

One possibility is to not drill the touch hole to make it more legal. Another possibility is to only drill it partially for looks. That would cost more but not much. The users could then drill the rest of the way.

One thing about a partial drilling is that somebody could buy more than one, finish them and then sell an undrilled one on ebay to recover some costs. There are all sorts of re-enactor types who might like one or for an interesting wallhanger. (Hint: I'm encouraging multiple purchases to get the quantity high.)

Steve

CAV Trooper · « **Reply #15 on:** May 26, 2005, 04:40:18 PM »

A machinist friend of mine has a precision gun drilling machine and can bore barrels to almost any size from about 1/8" to over 2" in diameter.

If anybody would be interested in a group buy, I could get a price from him for drilling some handgonne barrels. He doesn't have a problem drilling the vent but, if necessary, it could be left only partially drilled. The external profile could be anything the group agreed on.

He drilled and profiled my handgonne from a design I drew. That's a 1.0625 bore that's 8" deep. The other end is drilled 1.125" x 2" deep. In the picture, the vent is next to the top of the Goex can while the other one is for a 3/32" roll pin to hold the stick in.

jeeper1 · « **Reply #16 on:** May 26, 2005, 05:07:23 PM »

I'm confused
I'm under the inpression that these were replicas of a pre 1898 weapon and that they could sold and shipped the same as any other muzzle loader. At least in most states. So why the unfinished condition talk? Or am I mistaked?

GGaskill · « **Reply #17 on:** May 26, 2005, 05:10:50 PM »

I modified the drawing for the Tannenberg Handgonne so the dimension lines for the "diameters" are more clear.

"The original hand gonnes fired rocks."---According to Ulrich's site, the original was found with a lead ball in it. "It was found at an archeological excavation in 1849 at the bottom of the water well of the Tannenberg castle in Hessen. When found, this handgonne was still loaded with a lead bullet."

CrufflerSteve · « **Reply #18 on:** May 26, 2005, 06:55:20 PM »

Quote from: CAV Trooper

A machinist friend of mine has a precision gun drilling machine and can bore barrels to almost any size from about 1/8" to over 2" in diameter.

If anybody would be interested in a group buy, I could get a price from him for drilling some handgonne barrels. He doesn't have a problem drilling the vent but, if necessary, it could be left only partially drilled. The external profile could be anything the group agreed on.

He drilled and profiled my handgonne from a design I drew. That's a 1.0625 bore that's 8" deep. The other end is drilled 1.125" x 2" deep. In the picture, the vent is next to the top of the Goex can while the other one is for a 3/32" roll pin to hold the stick in.

That's a nice looking gonne. Persoanally I'd like the Tannenberg design. Do people want it exact? Even the interior? It could have a longer bore and a shallower chamber. It could even be steel to save on cost.

I also like the plain round one from the Rifle Shoppe. Perhaps doing the rounding on an octagon to start. If you look at some of the pictures at http://www.handgonnes.com/id75.html You'll see the octagon was a favorite starting point.

You're made of stern stuff shooting a 1.0625" bore! Must kick like the dickens! I'm more of a wimp and would prefer something that matches some muzzleloader sizes so molds and balls are easy to find. .69"?

Some more pictures are at: http://www.geocities.com/whomisit/gonnes.html

A real simple one is the Tabor Pistala, which is sometimes refered to as the Tabor Musket: http://www.witchery.com/claypipe/tabor1.jpg http://www.witchery.com/claypipe/tabor2.jpg

I could also be happy with some at Teleocera's Pages:
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/1945/Guns/BP.htm
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/1945/Guns/Hgonne.htm
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/1945/Guns/Hgonne2.htm

The last one has a picture of .75 gonne by the Irish Musket Locke Co.

Enough pictures?

Steve

CrufflerSteve · « **Reply #19 on:** May 26, 2005, 07:02:26 PM »

Quote from: jeeper1

I'm confused
I'm under the inpression that these were replicas of a pre 1898 weapon and that they could sold and shipped the same as any other muzzle loader. At least in most states. So why the unfinished condition talk? Or am I mistaked?

I was suggesting it since having this as an option might bring more people into the deal. There are re-enactor types in Europe who do the really old stuff and they have to deal with unpleasant laws. In the US, it might appeal to some of the Renfair people, some of whom might want a nonfunctional gonne.

On this board, I think most of us like things that go bang and love things that go boom!

Steve

GGaskill · « **Reply #20 on:** May 26, 2005, 08:33:41 PM »

Too many choices will end up with 1 for #1, 3 for #2, 2 for #3, 1 for #4, etc. Better to offer one design, take it or leave it.

For some reason, early barrels were forged octagon instead of hexagon. Hexagon stock is available (used to be used for hex head bolt making) so one could easily have a combination of hexagonal and round shapes. Octagon is usually milled from round these days.

One simplification of the Tannenberg design would be to eliminate the tapers (all three sections are tapered at different slopes.) See below. Wouldn't look as sophisticated but would have the general shape. Bore and chamber could be different with either design.

Simple Tannenberg Gonne

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #21 on:** May 27, 2005, 01:26:06 AM »

Quote from: GGaskill

.... One simplification of the Tannenberg design would be to eliminate the tapers (all three sections are tapered at different slopes.) See below. Wouldn't look as sophisticated but would have the general shape. Bore and chamber could be different with either design.

http://lassengunsmithing.com/images/SimpleTannenbergGonne.gif">

Simplifying a little further, to use the above pattern, and turn the reduced two diameters (round) would make a very easy to produce form from octagonal stock.

Suggest a 'normal' powder chamber for strength.

My handgonne is about 0.90 caliber. I use sections of 3/4" copper tubing filled with (... insert your favorite material here...).

Filled with a rubbery potting compound it doesn't kick much, but you can feel it.

3/4" copper tubing is readily available, and VERY easy to cut up in a band saw (which I would do for folks if needed).

Double D · « **Reply #22 on:** May 27, 2005, 03:29:54 AM »

Quote from: jeeper1

I'm confused
I'm under the inpression that these were replicas of a pre 1898 weapon and that they could sold and shipped the same as any other muzzle loader. At least in most states. So why the unfinished condition talk? Or am I mistaked?

Perceived liability!

GGaskill · « **Reply #23 on:** May 27, 2005, 08:04:11 AM »

Making a cylindrical one would be the penultimate simplification (a straight cylinder would be the ultimate simplification but then all links to the Tannenberg Gonne would be lost.) By making all the tapers the same, one would eliminate a lot of setup time. See below to see what that would look like using the taper of the front section for all three sections.

John N · « **Reply #24 on:** May 27, 2005, 08:47:07 AM »

Cylindrical or hexagonal, blued or unfinished, polished or rough, historically accurate or not, $100, $200 or more........as long as it can make noise and smoke and throw a ball of lead down range, I'd be happy. It's not like there are a lot of commercial choices out there.

GGaskill and CW, I like your designs a lot.

Interested folks should set a minimum list of requirements:

1) SAFE to shoot
2) base accommodates a poll
3) shoots commonly available projectiles (lead balls)

We can debate the merits of this style handgonne or that style of handgonne until we're blue in the face (and greatly enjoy doing that), but if we want to pool together a group of interested parties we need to be willing to give a little.

All I know is that I've caught handgonne fever.

CAV Trooper · « **Reply #25 on:** May 27, 2005, 10:11:19 AM »

I'll check with my machinist friend and get a price for a batch (5 to 10) of basic handgonnes with the following specs:

12" x 1" 1144SP steel (100,000psi yield)
.50 bore - 8" deep (will shoot a standard .49 lead ball)
profile as shown by GGaskill except round instead of hex or octagon
butt end drilled 2.5 " deep for a .75 stick
touch hole drilled for standard cannon fuze
in the white (no paint, bluing, etc.)

I'll post the total price (material and labor) as soon as I get it calculated.

John N · « **Reply #26 on:** May 27, 2005, 11:03:21 AM »

Cav Trooper,

You are the man! I'm anxiously awaiting to see what you find. I'm looking for two - gotta take care of my brother in Michigan.

CrufflerSteve · « **Reply #27 on:** May 27, 2005, 11:05:27 AM »

Quote from: CAV Trooper

I'll check with my machinist friend and get a price for a batch (5 to 10) of basic handgonnes with the following specs:

12" x 1" 1144SP steel (100,000psi yield)
.50 bore - 8" deep (will shoot a standard .49 lead ball)
profile as shown by GGaskill except round instead of hex or octagon
butt end drilled 2.5 " deep for a .75 stick
touch hole drilled for standard cannon fuze
in the white (no paint, bluing, etc.)

I'll post the total price (material and labor) as soon as I get it calculated.

CAV Trooper cuts through to the essence. I could happily live with this. I'm fond of the octagon shape with rounding but this would probably push the price up. These might become best sellers if they come in low. The Rifle Shoppe has a simple round in .77 caliber for $125. These are smaller, simpler and unfinshed so the price should make me want more than one. (You can never have too many cannon.)

I'd like to make one suggestion about the post mount. Make it a little under .75 so that the pole has to be shaved to fit. That would make for a tight mount. Some dowel rods are a bit undersize and I'd hate to have it flopping around.

One request would be for him to consider what making it slightly larger would do the price. 1.25" perhaps. Maybe a .54 or slightly larger bore would work. I'm always looking for more bang for my buck.

Steve

CAV Trooper · « **Reply #28 on:** May 27, 2005, 01:16:54 PM »

Steve,

We can do darn near anything you guys want. I'll have to check on his exact drill sizes but how about 1.25OD with a .61 bore? That will give you plenty of bang and Track of the Wolf has .60 lead balls at $7.50/25.

Just remember, the thicker the steel, the heavier the barrel. 1"x12" 1144SP weighs 2.67lbs while 1.25"x12" weighs 4.16 pounds. That's before machining of course.

Cutting the stick hole a bit undersized is no problem but I found it best to drill a hole through the tube and stick for a roll pin or bolt. This makes absolutely sure the gonne doesn't come off at a critical moment. Like just after you light the fuse. :wink: Also, with a 1.25 barrel, I'd use a 7/8" dowel. If the stick is too skinny, it looks bad.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #29 on:** May 27, 2005, 01:17:20 PM »

Steve -

I finally had some time to chase through the links that you posted.

THANKS - it has influenced my thinking on what I want to build in several directions!

First to build anything under 3/4 inch didn't seem worth it until I saw some of the small bore handgonnes pictured in the links.

Second, there were some early, more hand cannons rather than pole gonnes that looked like they'd be fun to build and shoot.

I was, and guess I still do recommend using 1-1/2" diameter stock for a handgonne - only because it just feels right in weight and balance. Don't be afraid of the 0.90 bore - the kick on a 1" piece of 3/4" copper tubing isn't at all brutal - it could be lots more and still fun to shoot.

So do both - one in about an inch and another in about 1/2" bore!