Author Topic: Smokeless BP loads (Read 3500 times)

leverfan · « **on:** May 17, 2005, 10:28:12 AM »

Over on SASS, they're having some lively debates about some of the shooters in FC and Frontiersman. It seems that some of the top shooters are shooting loads that don't smoke, or don't smoke very much. Duplex loads seem to be a possible explanation. A pinch of 4F next to the primer in the case may also be used, but it's not technically against the rules to use two types of BP in one load. It seems that an EOT shooter started all this hoopla by placing very well with loads that didn't look at all like BP or a substitute.

I figure that the conversations over here are more civil than the ones on the Wire, so what do you folks thing should be done to prevent cheaters? It seems that nobody at EOT had the gumption to challenge the shooter with the smokeless BP loads, because nobody wants to be the one to walk up and say, "I think you might be cheating your way to a buckle." I made some suggestions on the Wire that were ignored by folks too busy with their own dog fights. What do you folks think?

ribbonstone · « **Reply #1 on:** May 17, 2005, 01:32:49 PM »

Dissassembly and exam of some randomly selected samples for ALL shooters...but do it to everyone. Doesn't have to slow down the pace of signe up...just collect the samples, each in an envelope, and have two guys (best to pick people who know black powder from clear shot from smokeless) pull them to look over while the match goes on.

Int eh early days of combat shooting, would have to shoot over a chronograph before each match to earn your "major" or to be assured you wer at least making "minor". Slowe3d thing down at sign up...but in this case, shouldn't cause any delay...just require two spare knowledgeable range officers.

leverfan · « **Reply #2 on:** May 17, 2005, 01:44:24 PM »

Your suggestion is very similar to the one I made on the Wire. I suggested collecting samples from everyone, but only checking the ones belonging to shooters headed for the winners' circle. That's what they do in Western 3 Gun.

Some folks were concerned that it's hard to tell different powders apart, but I pointed out that a $20 kid's stereoscope would provide enough magnification to tell powder types apart, even between some very similar powders. Spotting smokeless mixed with real black powder is no problem, since the shape of the grains are so different, even when color and size are the same.

The guys on the Wire seem to be headed towards some sort of "smoke police" that will determine if a shooter's loads look smokey enough when shooting a course of fire. If they don't look smokey enough, possible responses have ranged from DQ, to having folks confront the suspect shooter, or having the shooter moved to a smokeless category. None of those really make sense to me, but your suggestion does.

For those of you wondering why this matters, some of the guys on the Wire have the ears of the TGs and other powers that be in the SASS hierarchy, so they may carry the day with some goofy smoke police idea.

ribbonstone · « **Reply #3 on:** May 17, 2005, 03:52:42 PM »

Way too subjective...going to start more arguments than it would ever settle. Same theme: Why not get guys to listen to the gun shots to decide how fast the bullet is going?

Cuts Crooked · « **Reply #4 on:** May 17, 2005, 05:56:48 PM »

Simpler answer: 650 Feet per second minimum for BP loads. Any load that makes that speed but does not smoke significantly is supect of being a duplex.

Enforcement? Take two cartridges from each shooter, at some point during the match (preferabley while the shooter is at the loading table) and the test loads if any questionable "smokeless appearing" loads are observed.

Before the haggling starts: 650 FPS is an easy load to shoot in even the mighty .45. It will also make plenty of smoke in the smaller calibers like .38 special and 32-20. It's simple, and non descriminitory. It's also simple to enforce, with a chronograph. Chronys are cheap these days, under $100.00 so it wouldn't break a clubs budget to own one.

The REAL bottom line in the smoke arguement is actually....A willingness to enforce! Period!

leverfan · « **Reply #5 on:** May 17, 2005, 08:15:05 PM »

I wouldn't mind seeing a FPS or power factor minimum for the BP categories. My only concern is that some of my loads may be creeping over the SASS maximum velocity.

howdy doody · « **Reply #6 on:** May 21, 2005, 02:36:48 PM »

Though no one spelled it out exactly, the real problem seems to be folks that like to break rules. My guess is that the whole rhubarb is about a shooter that shot duplex loads. I have seen it and though it is obvious cheating, until there is a standard about smoke, powder quantity, loadings, pulling bullets, etc. No one was breaking any other rule except the one that says no duplex loads allowed.
I shoot nothing but BP, I don't care for more rules any more than anyone else, but this smokeless FC shooting needs to stop soon or all my BP shooting buddies will fade back to the smokeless stuff. I don't know the suspected shooter, but I have been whipped up on by some well known shooters at big events that I thought were shooting loads that were far too light on smoke for the velocity they were being shot at. Big advantage being able to see what your aiming at quickly.
I support a standard we can all live with. Once in place I will come back to the BP classes. Right now I still shoot BP, but I do it in the gunfighter class. :-)

Cuts Crooked · « **Reply #7 on:** May 21, 2005, 05:48:09 PM »

Well, after alla the brahoohaugh on the other Wire, I've come to a couple of conclusions.

1. The TGs are NOT going to go for the minimum load density thing, whether it's 1CC or 15 grains...watever! It will become too complicated in practice and will ultimately result in some serious arguments.

2. I suspect that they will not go for a speed limit either. The support for it simply isn't there. Even though it would be simple to impliment and could make a great tool for detecting duplexing. The overall attitude towards a bottom end speed is such that many will fear that it may spill over into the smokeless catagories eventually. And they simply will NOT abide such a possibility.

I've tried, I wrote an artical on the subject of smokeless BP in FC and FCD, and I've contacted my TG and requested that he put the matter before the TGs as a body either as a speed limit and/or load density. But I ain't gonna hold my breath.

howdy doody · « **Reply #8 on:** May 21, 2005, 07:17:01 PM »

Well Cuts, I have spent probably 5 years touting the spirit of BP shooting for authenticity, fun and grins and a bunch more reasons. I give up. This smokeless shooting of BP came to a head when they held EOT and some shooter won the whole danged FC class shooting what those in attendence thought to be less than what would be expected from any kind of BP or sub. Well, why no one complained at the event is anyone who was there's guess.
But, I have seen the same phenonoman right in my own back yard too danged many times in the past couple of years. I think it is a trend. As far as BP shooting with little smoke is concerned, there is no problem really. There is no rule or standard. If you can load to get no smoke and still get a bullet to reach out 15 yards and knock down calibrated plates, then you know something about BP/subs I don't. Now if you break the do not use duplex rules and load yourself up some smokeless 231 or bullseye and a tad of BP or Sub, you now don't make diddley squat for smoke and have enough velocity to handle a knockdown a minimum fps and can accurately shoot out to 15 yards too. That's what I am seeing and it is also the reason I have left the FCD and frontiersman classes to try my hand at gunfighter. No one cares if a gunfighter smokes or not, but I will and it will look like me alright, but I will have both pistolas out and doing business. If they get the riff raff that caused this whole hoopla to load up legal like, then I will rejoin ya'll in the BP classes, otherwise my options are shooting BP in gunfighter, traditional, senior duelist classes. The BP classes can dry up as far as I am concerned right at the present. I will however continue my smokey ways. :-)
PS. I sure as heck love your articles. Keep 'em coming pard.

Cuts Crooked · « **Reply #9 on:** May 22, 2005, 01:36:16 AM »

<sigh> I'm thinking of going back to shooting in the Duelist catagory myownself. Fact is I was shooting Frontier Cartridge Duelist before such a catagory existed. I just shot BP in the Duelist class! Sometimes I beat the smokeless guys in that catagory! :shock: (That ain't likely to happen anymore, but back then I was faster, could actually feel my right hand, and had better eyesight..wish I'da taken better care of this aging hulk that I use to move around on the earth with! :? )

Anyways...I sent ya a PM. fire one back, if you would, and tell me wat ya think. I'd appreciate it!

Yer pard from the Plains,

Cuts

howdy doody · « **Reply #10 on:** May 22, 2005, 04:04:15 AM »

Howdy Cuts,
I wrote you a PM back and kept getting invalid session coming up after I hit sent. I tried a reply too. I see nothing in my sent box,so I hope you get one of the messages at least. It took me a half hour to write it. I am not a very fast typer. :?

Cuts Crooked · « **Reply #11 on:** May 22, 2005, 10:36:29 AM »

Got it pard! :grin:

leverfan · « **Reply #12 on:** May 22, 2005, 06:44:19 PM »

Well, I hope that SASS doesn't lose too many people from the ranks in general, or the black powder classes in particular over all this. The spite is flowing faster than new information on the SASS Wire, so I quit reading the threads about black powder.

As you can see from my SASS #, I'm new to this game, so I don't know how far the discontent has spread past the internet. At this point, I'm just shooting for the grin factor, and all my loads are Goex powered. There's not a chance in heck of me placing first in any event that has more people than just me competing in it. The big ka-booms, clouds of smoke, and burning debris are my rewards for now. It would, however, limit the grin factor to have an obvious cheat, or even a buckle-hunting gamer with questionable loads, patting himself on the back after a match.

Cuts Crooked · « **Reply #13 on:** May 22, 2005, 10:43:46 PM »

Quote

There's not a chance in heck of me placing first in any event that has more people than just me competing in it.

Never say never Pard! I was State Champion in FCD a couple of years ago. I never thought I had a chance, but I did it. :grin: Probably won't happen again, I've been slowed down some by a health set back. But I won't quit trying! :-D

leverfan · « **Reply #14 on:** May 22, 2005, 10:54:18 PM »

CC, you've inspired me to strive for my own personal best, and make the one change that could result in me being a state champion.

I'm going to move to a smaller state!

howdy doody · « **Reply #15 on:** May 23, 2005, 07:31:52 AM »

Yeah, never say never is right.

I have one first place trophy. How I got it was mostly perserverance. I signed up at an annual and there was a couple more too in frontiersman. It took 3 to make a class.
It threatened rain, but never did until after the shooting was all over on Friday and saturday was more of a mist. I didn't do too well. I waited until I could see a target sepecially with rifle and my times were in the one minute range on about all stages.
Come Sunday at awards, I was floored that they announced I was the only one shooting, the others didn't show. WOW! I was elated, but then I realized I didn;t really beat anyone, but I still have the one first place at a big annual trophy to my name.
Shoot for fun, that is what I do. If you win something, great, if not, you still had some real first class fun with pards and even though it is a competition, it still amounts to only a handful that win awards, the rest of us win by being there and shootin' cowboy guns. :grin:

Fightin Creek Slim · « **Reply #16 on:** May 23, 2005, 08:34:19 PM »

Howdy Pards:
When I got into CAS my goal was to go to the darkside. I wanted to shoot guns and loads as close to period correct as possible. I ain't a top shooter probably never will be one, but then I'm one who shoots fer fun and likes to make a loud Boom followed by lots of smoke. One of the things that attracted me to the darkside was the seeming absence of the gamey types. If this Smokeless BP thing is a trend and many of these trends find their beginnings at EOT and some of the big regionals. Then we will be among a dwindling minority who still adere to Spirit of the game.

Griff, SASS93 · « **Reply #17 on:** May 28, 2005, 06:24:06 AM »

Recognize some of ya'll from other boards. Seems more civilized here also. I ain't attended EOT since '91, but shot BP in both the original BP (c&b) class and the FC class from '85 to '91.
Best finish was 3rd (I think), in class. Won FC @ Raton in '91.
I haven't shot with any regularity since '95/'96 until the beginning of this year. And that ain't regular like either. But, I have noticed a couple of things.
1) the camps between warthog and mouse pharts is growing wider
2) the disagreement is over the same issue: historical accuracy over a need to win.
Both camps have their good points and thickheadedness. Take no offense as none is really intended. Most folks I've met in this game are genuinely fine folk. The odd cheater or so are soon identified and run out of the sport.
The comment that seems most germane to issue is the fact that no one braced the suspected offender. However, in one post I read that, in fact, he was questioned by a fellow shooter and received the reply that the WB approved his loads.
Yep, the $50 ante for a protest ain't cheap, but... neither is letting a cheat get by. If the WB actually approved his loads, what process was used? Or, did this fellow just lie his way past a fellow competitor or the WB? Either way, shame on the suspect and shame on his fellow posse members fer lettin' him get away with it.
My loads may be considered mouse pharts by some (25-30grs under 180-225gr bullets) but they still smoke plenty and go whomp loud enough fer me. Also, a steady diet of 35+grs under 250gr bullets will bust up targets. At one match I was asked to tone it down for this reason. And the more I shot, I found that during the course of a match the several 100 rnds I go thru get to my shoulder and if'n I hurt at the end of the day, I ain't havin' fun. Thank you but I'll save the shoulder busters for hunting.
Point is: If ya don't ante up & protest under the current rules then you're just gonna hafta comply with rules that may not be to your likin. Me, I'll take a little flack on bracin' someone about their loads (even mine) rather than have a bunch of new rules to comply with. Even some of the rules they've stuck in the last 9 years are a little silly, IMHO.
i.e. I still use a side x side and no gun cart. Feller I met at my first match in 4 years away from my club (I started it in '91), tolt me I had to carry my shotgun with the muzzle up. I don't know about yours, but mine's kinda slick, and the weight of the stock will close the action :shock: Yep, I know I just gotta angle the bbls forward and that'll keep the stock from shuttin. But, it's a whole lot easier to control carried over the crook of my arm with the bbls down, easier to see that it's unloaded and safe.
Just one shooters' opinion and worth exactly what you paid for it.

Cuts Crooked · « **Reply #18 on:** May 30, 2005, 12:13:14 AM »

Howdy Griff,

This isn't really about the the specific shooter at EOT, although it appears that he was the catalyst that got folks started talking about the subject of "smokeless BP rounds". Actually a surprizing number of us have seen various shooters using them. (There was "poll" run on TOB that indicated about 65% of BP shooters have observed such behaviour at different times) It has also come to light that the shooter that got everyone started discussing the matter was shooting legal loads. His revolver loads were 3 - 5 grains of 777 and the rest of the case crammed with filler...legal Apparently he WAS braced on the subject because his loads were "approved" by the WB (at least that is what is being claimed). He shot different loads in his rifle...it seems that these loads could not be relied upon to make it out of a rifle barrel! :eek:

Soooo...I would hesitate to say "shame on his posse members".

Griff, SASS93 · « **Reply #19 on:** May 30, 2005, 03:36:12 AM »

Cuts,
Thanks fer info. Now I am stumped. Seems like so much for "The Spirit of The Game". But I still am not convinced. I dislike making up additional rules just to counter some perceived cheatin. And it ain't like getting any new rule that still allows for some individual freedoms will be any easy task either.

leverfan · « **Reply #20 on:** May 30, 2005, 06:56:25 PM »

Quote from: Cuts Crooked

His revolver loads were 3 - 5 grains of 777 and the rest of the case crammed with filler...legal

As one fellow has made clear to me, a mix of 231 and 777 is one duplex load that requires chemical analysis to detect. I didn't attend EOT, I don't know the people involved, and I'm not accusing anyone of anything, just mentioning a possible concern. I was told in a PM that there was at least one shooter bragging about his "undetectable" duplex load.

A quick internet search on field tests for nitro cellulose turned up a test kit that might take the smirks off of a few cheaters' faces, if the kit was put in use at major matches. I passed the info along, for what it was worth. It seemed like a quick, practical way to enforce existing SASS rules.

Critter · « **Reply #21 on:** May 31, 2005, 02:32:17 AM »

If we have to go the route of field testing for nitrocellulose I'm all done with B.P. I left the smokeless classes because A) I love shooting BP B) The smokless mousefart loads were getting to the point of silly. Now BP is getting this way. I'm not a warthog but there has to be a end to this. I shot against a feller at the state championships last year that was using half cases of APP, half filler in .32 and 38. Very little smoke, it just gets on my nerves. If something doesn't change I'll go back to smokeless or just give it up altogether. The sport is becoming no longer enjoyable to me.

Griff, SASS93 · « **Reply #22 on:** May 31, 2005, 09:34:26 AM »

to all:
Here's what I don't understand; I hear it said all the time "I only do this sport for my own enjoyment", yet in the next breath I hear criticism of how someone else is enjoying their aspect of the sport.
Here's what I do understand; this is human nature, and we all suffer from it from time to time. We also like, if there's a set of rules, that everyone follow 'em, at least to the extent that we ourselves, will.
Those two thing said; I'll again say that there really isn't a solution, outside of our own attitude, to this perceived violation of "The Spirit of The Game".
Also, I'm not stating this as a criticism of anyone that I'm not willing to apply to myself, as I am also guilty of the same. But it is true, that only I am able to control my enjoyment of the game.
Therefore, it is only me that I have to worry about, unless a safety violation is apparent, or there is a perceived violation of the Spirit of the Game. And once identified, it is only I who can rectify the situation by either direct interdiction, or by reporting the violation. The latter is not my style, so I will continue to infuriate my playmates by pointing out their failings and shortcomings when it comes to the spirit of the game. (As I've had done to me on occasion). :wink:
The best thing I've learned in CAS is that I've got a lot more to learn, and I can learn it in the least likely places.
'Cause while I may be competitive and a buckle chaser, I know where my wishes and capabilities differ. For as long as I've played this game, I ain't done a day of practice shooting, and without practice there is no improvement, let alone perfection. But what I will practice is try to be an example of the sport. {emphasis on try :grin: }
If I'm wrong, I'm also sure there are those that will point it out to me.
Thanks fer listening, shoot fast, miss less :grin:

Cuts Crooked · « **Reply #23 on:** May 31, 2005, 01:30:39 PM »

We'll have to agree to disagree on that Griff. :wink:

I think there is a solution. The solution is to create a standard and ENFORCE it! It's doable...but the will to do must be there first! At this time I'm not sure that the will to do it exists. In an effort to make SASS all inclusive management has left the rules relaxed so that everyone can find a way to the winners circle in using one tactic..... or another! However this will only continue to work as long as the game remains profitable for the WB. If too many shooters decide to wander away, because the rule makers refuse to address a perceived issue, the game will die off.

Rules:

No one seems to like the addition of more rules, until they see them being utilized. I've observed this very thing in other sports many times over the years. A new rule is proposed, the resistance begins, recognition that something has to be done comes about, new rule is put in place, brahooha fades away as realization kicks in that the rule really was needed and has made an improvement in the game.

Rules are a fact of life! We like to think that lack of rules equates to a certain measure of freedom. (not really true BTW, the "Land of the free and Home of the Brave" has more "rules" to break than any other nation on earth!!!!! :eek: ) The truth is, rules are an extention of human nature. In ANY aspect of life there have to be rules because there is always a certain percentage of the populace who are willing to take extreme advantage of a lack....thus...rules to control that type of behaviour.

Spirit of the Game? Well that's a perfect example of an imperfect "rule". It is open to individual interpretation. All it needs is two people to say, "this is the way I see it" (whether are truthful or not) and you have circumvented it....just because someone has differing point of view.

I truely wish that "Spirit of the Game" were an answer, and if it were we would all be much happier. Unfortunately what you perceive and what I perceive is different.................

howdy doody · « **Reply #24 on:** August 10, 2005, 04:27:10 AM »

Howdy Pards,
This issue isn't dying and some are still showing up with non smoking so called BP ammo. I was talking to a well known long time BP class shooter this past weekend about this standard stuff.
No one wants to eliminate the 32 shooters. There aren't that many in my parts anyways. What the latest on standards is that without pulling bullets a test for opacity could be done by comparing 4 or 5 bullets with the 15gr, 1cc loads that would be available to the match director for comparison. The suspect bullets would be marked and shot from the same pistol as the 15gr ones and a small jury would decide if they were at least as smokey as the 15gr ones.
Yeah, that is way too much for a monthly shoot, but folks that spend money entering and traveling to an annual or larger shoot could be guaranteed a equal field of competitors.
Too bad it all comes down to this, but since I try and make some bigger matches and have in fact witnessed the smokeless BP loads with my own eyes, I have to agree there is a need for a standard.
I shoot a lot of FC, but for the past few years I sign up as frontiersman when I spend a bunch of bucks getting to a shoot. Why? Because I have yet to see a smokeless frontiersman. Here on the left coast frontiersmen are far and in between and we have sort of a fraternity of sorts. We pretty much all know each other well and there has been no monkey business in that class. FC has been the real problem. I have seen shooters that normally shoot smokeless, sign up for FC just for big events in hopes that they can pull off a good placement, some of these folks have a competitive mindset. Good for them, but you need to look like you are indeed shooting BP or a sub.
BTW, 5cc of 777 in 38 spec. does not need a filler. With a mag primer they are not position sensitive and with a really light bullet they shoot pretty much OK.
I shot a whole match with a pards loads of just that. Not much smoke and I was shooting way high the whole match. To me the recoil was far less than that of 32 factory loads, probably because of the weight of my RVs

I donated some of my 38 and 45 ammo to a pard that is heavy in this drawing up a standard thing. He is comparing as many loads as he can and since he just retired he has the time to do it. He is chronying them, checking opacity, pulling bullets and weighing everything out. He is rounding up ammo from all the folks he can. Nothing scientific, but just to document what everyone likes to shoot. Currently I am shooting Goex Pinnacle and that gives him a chance to document that.
I don;t think he will come to much of a conclusion based on his testing, because I do know the whole danged rhubarb is about folks that come out and shoot and they are duplexing. Duplexing has been a no no for years. It is spelled out in the rule book that you must not do that. Why would that be in there? Because duplexing has been a known advantage since BP classes were formed way back when. What we have now is competitors gaining class advantage by not smoking and being able to get on target faster than the rest.
It is only a few rotten eggs, but it only takes one at a shoot. I support a standard. Without one, nothing can be enforced and the BP class will go down the tubes.
:-)

Scota · « **Reply #25 on:** October 03, 2005, 06:45:17 AM »

Here is an opinion from a guy who is strongly conistering getting into CAS BP cartridge shooting. No, I am not a member yet.

I would favor BP loads being compressed loads of BP only. No fillers, substitutes, no exceptions. I do not understand the compulsion to cheat. If you want to participate in the games and gimmicks go shoot IPSIC with race guns. The idea here is to get the feeling of the old west. Shooting loads with filler or 777 and ball smokeless is like attaching an electronic piezo igniter to a flintlock and then being upset that you a barred from competition with tradtional flintlocks. The gamesmanship is one thing that is holding me back from joining.

leverfan · « **Reply #26 on:** October 03, 2005, 07:53:42 PM »

Scota, I wouldn't want this tempest in a teapot to turn you away from cowboy action shooting, or loading up with a case full of Goex. Some of these issues loom large on the internet, but are actually rarely problems at most matches. The cowboy action folks that I've met so far are decent enough, polite, and I trust them to load within the accepted "spirit of the game."

I'm having a good time just making lots of smoke and fire, and I'm not too worried about what other folks put into their loads, as long as it doesn't blow their gun up.

At the very top level of the sport, there are folks being rewarded with lucrative ad deals, or making money by opening up schools to teach their winning ways (oh, wait, there aren't any pro shooters in SASS, that's what the wild bunch says.....

). The rest of us are in it for the giggles, love of history, and 50 cent ribbons. None of that's worth letting someone else spoil my fun.

Now, if I said that on the SASS Wire, someone would point out that my number isn't low enough for my opinion to count, but that doesn't turn me away from SASS matches. I haven't met any of those jerks in real life, just further evidence that internet cowboy action and actual matches are two very different animals.

The folks on this thread here at GBO have been great to learn from, and I suspect that we'd all have one hell of a good time shooting together, and spirit of the game wouldn't be questioned when we watched the smoke rolling from the other shooters' guns. That really represents most of what you'll find in the sport.